Illarion.org

What is the harm in the gm's telling us

You need at least an 11 to pick herbs
You need at least a 13 to cast this spell
You need at least a 16 to eat the sour cheese
etc
etc
etc

I see no reason why these are hidden. Players already know this through their "inside" sources, so why not go public with it. Don't be like the government.

In my experience, most players who say they have "inside sources" are more outside than anyone else.

The problem with doing that? We want you to create a concept, rather than just picking a class, race, and an assortment of stats. That sort of behavior must be discouraged in some way or another. For the record, "This character is going to be a druid someday" is not a concept.

Aegohl

The problem with doing that? We want you to create a concept, rather than just picking a class, race, and an assortment of stats. That sort of behavior must be discouraged in some way or another. For the record, "This character is going to be a druid someday" is not a concept.

So are you saying that we can't have a planed profesion for our charater, and that we should just have to stumble across what he/she is good at?

So in theory, when creating a "concept" we should have a set of character traits and behaviors and enter the world of illarion and see what becomes of us.
I love it Pendar was created to be a bard, with 10 constitution and 12 strength and today he is a guard. If everyone did this it would be a very different game. This is not a question of my rp is more leet than your rp. It was a simple pleasure that I didnt really know what Illarion would be like and in discovering it fell into a entirely new rp and role for Pendar.
How ever I know that characters with stats of DEX,STR,CON,AG 18-19.
So certain classes in this example a warrior is welcomed I have no problem with this. How ever this game in it’s a lose simulation of RL is competitive and communal at the same time. Despite being incredibly short sighted, certainly mentally challenged, etc etc these characters can smith weapons, sell items for fair market prices and count large sums of money. For the simple reason there is no game mechanic stopping them from doing it. This is great…I say it again GREAT may we never become so strict that we try and make people RP all there’s 3's.

How ever some players, me in this example are saying I would like to variate a little. I would potentially like a warrior who makes a few potions. The answer is we can’t tell you because we dont want you people picking a class then falls short.
I am looking at this character creation tool and actually wondering what will power does. Should I use any valuable points on this willpower... .
The reality is all the abstract things like Essence being the characters personality will never be applied statistically unless you create a charm spell. Willpower will never affect a characters ability to be influenced unless i can cast dominate and literally move them around the screen with out other players consent. The abstract will always be decided by peoples rp..
So that said when I look at stats, they are merely numbers that dictate what my character can achieve with in the game mechanics.
I dont know about any one else, but Illarion is a game generally everyone enjoys a game more when they know the rules. If my creation cannot mix a potion then that is a final thing for that character as such a "rule". One I wasn’t aware of starting the game.
So my options create 5 characters+ until I have worked out the ultimate stats for a warrior, magician, archer and druid.
Or take a stab in the dark and see how things turn out. I am going with option two . As believe it or not stats and abilities are secondary to me.

I just fail to see why people should be kept in the dark, as they will eventually over time work it out. If determined create many needless characters to explore combinations with. Ask other characters and work it out any way.
Brian

P.s I do now that Essence serves a purpose in game I just use it as an example.

Arkadia Misella wrote:What is the harm in the gm's telling us

You need at least an 11 to pick herbs
You need at least a 13 to cast this spell
You need at least a 16 to eat the sour cheese

This isnt actualy needed in the future, if what I belive to know is right.
Most knowledge will be sold/taught by NPCs, and these NPCs will roll checks against your character and his/her attributes.
If for example the druidry teacher is trying to teach you some herbs, and your character fails to even be able to find the most basic ones he will not teach your character anything.
You just get a line along "You meet not the requirements for an art like this.", ect.

I will never understand the minds of the GMs, nor will I ever try to, nor do I want to anymore, but it just doesn't make sense that the minimum stat requirements for a certain trade or profession should be with-held from the players.

Pendar wrote:I dont know about any one else, but Illarion is a game generally everyone enjoys a game more when they know the rules. If my creation cannot mix a potion then that is a final thing for that character as such a "rule". One I wasn’t aware of starting the game.

This is something that many of us have had to go through over the past years. This guess and check system is more of a waste of time than an enjoyment of what the game has to offer. If we want to make a mage that can cast some of the spells, but not all, we should know which stats will allow us to cast which spells. If we want to make a druid, we should know just how much perception he or she needs, how much dexterity one will need for potion mixing, and how much intelligence (though I'm going to use a Martin word and say the idea of having intelligence for a druid requirement is "stupid") we will need for whatever mysteries of the universe we have to decipher for us to mix the plant properly (so that we don't accidentally implode the known world for mixing a bulbsponge with a donf blade instead of a toadstool. )

Seriously... do you think people who make potions would analyze every aspect of the plant before combining the two? In a medieval fantasy realm? This isn't modern medicine we're using, this is a fantasy world of elves, dwarves, and the like. If we're going to have modern scientific reasoning for a game that's based in a clearly medieval fantasy realm, we might as well have a modern world, with cars, planes, guns, etc, etc, etc. Combining random aspects of the two only causes confusion, so combine it all or don't at all. You can have your donf blade research laboratory if you give me a magic-missile silo.

EDIT:
I meant to add more, but forgot until now. One of the GMs (Aegohl, I believe) stated that these things are not told to us because they want us to create characters based on concept, not stats. Well look at the players you've got. Look at how many of us want to make a proper druid without having to give it six tries. Look at how many of us want to simply make a character that can do what his concept is based around. Not knowing this information is what screws us over, because we don't know whether we need this amount or that for specifics, so we contemplate maxing out what stats we think we need for the specific concept we are going for. You said you wanted us to have a variety of characters of the same profession, well I say you have to start trusting us instead of dictating what we are limited to knowing so that we can actually decide which stats need to be varied to create a character that is original, one that is offset by others.

So that said when I look at stats, they are merely numbers that dictate what my character can achieve with in the game mechanics.

I actually do RP according to my stats. If I have a low intelligence, how would I roleplay? As an idiot. If I have low Willpower/Essence, I would roleplay that character as easy influenced. Etcetera.

I edited my post above, please see that as well. Its kind of a large part of my argument. XD

If we keep talking about druids, one should learn more about them.
Even in Asterix comics they have been illustrated as highly intelligent person.
These people have been the "scientists", aswell as high political leaders, of the ancient times, and not some dumb idiots who mix random components and look if the colour changes to something else.

As you said, dont mix the two worlds. The arrogance of the present should not influence your view on the past.

Edit:
If a concept is based on "being durid", its the same as you father would say at your birth "You become a lawyer".

Keikan Hiru wrote: Edit:
If a concept is based on "being durid", its the same as you father would say at your birth "You become a lawyer".

And if someone wants to roleplay a druid, but doesn't know what is needed to roleplay one on a statistical level? What then? Say this person makes what he or she thinks would be a good druid, but turns out mistaken. Don't you think that a player should be able to make a druid if he or she wants to make one? What if that is the only thing the player wants to roleplay at that given time? Do you turn this potential player away because you do not wish to give out oh-so precious information that could help them so they might efficiently play a druid? Because if a person does not know what is required of him or her, how can he or she perform a task?

If this fictional player is going to make a "Only Druid"-Character, he hopefuly is intelligent enough to put enough points in the mental section of this character, as his roleplaying abilites are fairly limited.

A character concept that is limited to the abilty to click on ALT and see herbs is doomed from the begin to fail.
Take server coded Druidism and Magic as additions to your character concept not as the only part.

Edit:
On one thing you are of course right, Illarion is a bit strange compared to the averange competitor out in the net.
Where you elsewhere think:
'I am going to make a mage, so I need high intelligence points.'

You have to think in Illarion:
'I am going to make a intelligent, [...], person, who maybe is adapt in magic.'

Keikan Hiru wrote:If this fictional player is going to make a "Only Druid"-Character, he hopefuly is intelligent enough to put enough points in the mental section of this character, as his roleplaying abilites are fairly limited.

A character concept that is limited to the abilty to click on ALT and see herbs is doomed from the begin to fail.
Take server coded Druidism and Magic as additions to your character concept not as the only part.

You're breaking down my idea too much and too technically. It might just be me not getting the point across clearly, though. I am rather tired right now as it is almost 2am here. Let's say that this player has a history for his character, he comes from a druidic family, one that has a past history in the making of potions, thus the player needs to know what it is that he will need to perform the technical portion of this concept. There are two parts of a concept in this case, I feel. There is the part that is roleplayed, which is based around a character's personality, interactions, experiences, etc. Then there is the technical part. To make potions, a mainstay of a druid in practice, one will need to know what the needed stats are for making potions. I do not believe that the proposed ideal for a character is accurate (the concept>stats>final product). I think that to make an effectively ideal character, one must have stats that correlate to the concept and a concept that correlates to the stats. I've also noticed you're dodging the core of my argument, which is a question as to why we truly aren't being told these things we feel we need to know. If you don't have an answer, then say you don't. I've explained that we deserve the trust of the staff (especially considering how long the community has been around) and if the staff can trust us, then we can prove we are right. There's no reason for them to dictate what we need to know. That's like the media. The Illarion Staff isn't the media.

I'm sorry, I'm way to tired to continue this discussion, as fun and irritating as it has been (if such a combination of pleasure and pain is possible). I'm going to bed after a cigarette. All I want are answers to questions and knowledge I need to make an effective character in the future. I've already got the concept and I know what specific stats I need for this concept to be functional, but I do not know what specific numerical stats are going to completely screw me over if I allocate them wrong. I don't want to have to go through the process of making yet another character and concept, nor do I wish to continue the hit-or-miss charade. Clearly I am not going to get answers that I need tonight, if ever. Actually, I'm pretty much giving up on getting straight-forward answers from the staff. Yeah, I'm done with that. It doesn't ever happen, especially when the players of the game are trying to make a point that goes against what the staff thinks. Maybe I was just fooling myself when I should have been going with my instincts and experiences over the course of three long years here.

Good night and thanks for the argument.

Lets play with this fictional "druid" character.
Based upon the past of this character, his family, he is (must have) going to be a fairly intelligent person.
Thats why the player needs to set much points at the mental attributes.

We roleplay:
This person springs out of a family with many driuds in thier past, still this does not make him a druid himself.
When the time of testing (at an NPC) comes, it will show if the young boy turned into a druid and thus can take upon the legacy of his family.
If not he shall be casted away and seek is fortune elsewhere.

(the concept>the roleplay>the evolving product)

The community, as much as I like her, hasnt been arround for long. At least not in the current state.
People come and go, its never the same.
Single people have been arround, like you, but either everybody gets treaten similar or not.

"I need to make an effective character [...]"
I, personaly, think thats why nobody is going to tell.

Since you successfuly kept me from finishing a cave system, you can clearly realize that I liked this argument aswell.

Keikan Hiru wrote:Lets play with this fictional "druid" character.
Based upon the past of this character, his family, he is (must have) going to be a fairly intelligent person.
Thats why the player needs to set much points at the mental attributes.

We roleplay:
This person springs out of a family with many driuds in thier past, still this does not make him a druid himself.
When the time of testing (at an NPC) comes, it will show if the young boy turned into a druid and thus can take upon the legacy of his family.
If not he shall be casted away and seek is fortune elsewhere.

(the concept>the roleplay>the evolving product)

The community, as much as I like her, hasnt been arround for long. At least not in the current state.
People come and go, its never the same.
Single people have been arround, like you, but either everybody gets treaten similar or not.

"I need to make an effective character [...]"
I, personaly, think thats why nobody is going to tell.

Since you successfuly kept me from finishing a cave system, you can clearly realize that I liked this argument aswell.

One last note (I should be in bed right now, sleeping soundly, but noooo, insomnia kicks in. After this last comment though, I'm putting myself to rest):
My comment about an effective character is not about being the best druid, or the most talented who-whats-it. Its about making a character that has a solid history, a place in the game itself, and a chance for a future in the role I have cast him in. If my character gets turned away from the NPC druid-teacher, then I've no desire to continue that character, plain and simple. The role for which he has been cast is no longer a role in this theatrical play, to use a figurative term. Therefore, the actor of this play has no place. It seems narrow-minded, but really it isn't. I wish to play a specified role and I think this role is reasonable enough. I'm not asking for power, or reputation, or a guaranteed place in the future of Illarion (all these things I will or will not achieve through roleplay itself). I'm asking for the ability to play a character I have created that meets all the requirements that are set before me. Something I know I can roleplay, something I know will fit in the world of Illarion (and no, it isn't a druid ). I wish to see what replies come from this final response, but I will have to wait until tomorrow. No sense in letting all the flavor of this discussion go to waste in one night of debating.

My apologies for keeping you from your work so long, though I am glad you have enjoyed this debate. ^_^

Peaceful (non Illarion related or me related) dreams Cain.

The situation you discribe is exactly what I meant with "That concept is doomed to fail from the begining".
Basicly the character can be reduced to the abiliy that is stored on the ALT key. The storybock of your play only consists of the single aim to achive the server approval of being "druid", what is a "1" in some database.
Not much for a character, in my eyes.
A "1" does not tell anything about the personality of your character idea, nothing about social contacts you established with him/her, nothing basicly.

Aims, for characters, are by the way one of the worst things you can come up when creating a character, especialy when its about magic, druidsm, bard magic, priest magic, becoming an imperial stormtrooper.
As soon as you fail to reach them, your character is somehow rendered useless and for one. On the otherhand, if you reach them them your character apears suddenly unintressting and boring.
Its the same with houses, I belive, as soon you got them you stop playing.

This brings us back to the point of:
"Why do we not get to know what minimum requirements are needed for class X?"

Exactly thats why, maybe. To prevent players from creating "Druids", "Mages", "Knights" rather then encouraging them to experiment with Characters that still have the ability to develop aside from the initial concept of getting the entry "1" in thier row of the database.

Nighty night

Keikan Hiru wrote:
Aims, for characters, are by the way one of the worst things you can come up when creating a character, especialy when its about magic, druidsm, bard magic, priest magic, becoming an imperial stormtrooper.

There goes my character concept. You've ruined my dreams.

Aegohl

The only argument I understand here speaking for uncovering game data to the players is (way too much text, sorry, I had to break it down a bit in speed-reading):

I can't play my <insert D&D class here>.

This is why (I as a player hope) it will never happen:

• • This is not D&D.
  • Mages and Druids and such need high mental/spiritual attributes
  • This is not D&D.
  • RP is about acting, but also about REacting.

Especially my last point in that list deserves some consideration. You must obviously be living in some sort of fantasy world in your head if you think that you can start playing the game as a Lvl18-Sorcerer just because your history is so fancy (in P&P the DM would probably tell you "Sorry, the other players in this party are having their characters start at Lvl1, so will you, so please revise your background history"). Although you know you will start out with the equipment equivalent of a beggar, and the skills worthy of a weakly child who can't even beat up magically-mutated flies.

--

Here, allow me to dissect my character Sian in a short study to display why this talk about knowing how to be "effective" in game is nonsense (keep in mind also that Sian is my very first character I played in Illarion, I had no idea about prerequisites in attributes in order to gain any abilities):

Concept & Background
Sian was a brigand and bandit who was supposed to follow in the footsteps of his older sister and father, both of whom were knights. His sister was killed in a skirmish though and he turned his back on this destiny, and became a brigand with some childhood friends, who robbed people in the forests. Eventually though, there was a setup of a "money transport" that was only a trap for the bandits, and Sian ended up killing his own father in the skirmish, only finding out immediately after the battle whom he killed. He escaped these "homegrounds", just wanting to get anywhere from there; just as far away as possible. This led him to a journey on a ship, which was wrecked in a violent storm at high seas in the month of Bragon, and he was washed ashore of the island as so many others.
[Gaming in Illarion begins]
Conscience weighs heavily on his shoulders (he's not the dumbest nor near-sighted to realize he's fully responsible for his own fate, and has nothing to blame on Gods or other things). Initial days on the island, he's still absolutely weakened from having almost drowned and went for days without food and drink; thus he can't even hold a blade straight before him. He begins working both as a digger for glassblowers, and eventually even takes up some occasional glass-blowing himself, although mind you, he is not a druid; he may have had some connection to the forests, but his allure to magicks had always been greater (he read the book of magic first). Regaining his security with blades in countless duels and operating as a linebacker for warriors and other fighters in defending the town, he eventually began to excel at his original and most devotedly followed trade: combat. Still though, he watched a coven of mages Athian had reinstated, and slowly picked up knowledge from them. He used to accompany Elminister in strides through the woods, in which he cut wood for the Knight, and the Knight in turn eventually gave him some items necessary to learn magic (yes, go figure, I made a CLEVER rogue, not a drooling idiot who would be incapable of learning magic due to some attributes—perhaps I originally had in mind he might be able to cast magic one day, but I left this completely in the blank and open; at any rate I didn't want a dumb fighter). And in such, he came into control of ice magicks, the only type of the rune sorcery he feels affinity to.
Etc./find out in-game/good luck finding out the above in-game too

Note: As you can see in the concept, a single paragraph describes his history and what the character used to do, background-wise. Nothing more. Nothing fancy. Still though, I had a premise for how I'd basically play the character, with which I could distill even a little bit of humble prose around that single paragraph (if you search on the forums, you'll find that I used to write a bunch).

Premise
"Sian fights against justice in order to end any injustice he can grasp."
A premise leads from point A to point B. (This is a technique of forming dramatic writing around the premise; and it is written of and detailed by the playwright Lajos Egri. I'd recommend his book "The Art of Dramatic Writing"). Getting to point B involves conflict, in the case of placing a premise over the character, I will automatically generate conflict, and thus RP, simply by starting from point A ("fights against justice") and knowing that I will slowly let him advance towards point B ("end any injustice he can grasp"); and mind you, still being fully aware that the transition ("in order to") will cover an indefinite, perhaps even infinite amount of time.
With some piece of mind and logic thinking, this Premise alone shows that I never had to depend on the character being a good fighter, or becoming a spellcaster one day; these things just evolved naturally in the RP.
In the case of Sian's premise, to fulfill it, I had to do no less than defend the honor of outcasts and criminals, stick with them, always try to secretly undermine Lyrenzia/the Town Guard/the Grey Rose, and operate with people who eventually formed Varshikar; with the single limitation that the character would try to do these things as peacefully as possible and try to prevent bloodshed where he could. This also all led to a wonderful synopsis of what Sian would excel at, aside from any skill or attribute ratings impaired by the game.

Character Synopsis
Sian is a cunning liar and trickster, and in his deepest core he is an escapist.

Final note: Keep in mind that the Character Synopsis and the Premise slowly became crystal-clear in the course of RPing, all I had to start out with was the initial paragraph in Concept & Background. The Synopsis and Premise are results of REacting to the game setting, environment, other characters, you name it.

'Nuff said.

Let me see if I have this all correct:

1. Character concept has nothing to do with your goals that you've been working on all your life (after all, you arent' a baby with your dad deciding your future, you're at least a quasi-adult). And has nothing to do with the skills that you have built up from childhood either.

2. Character concept in fact only has to do with your stats (I am an intelligent, clumsy, weak, observant halfling)

3. However, we are not going to be told what stats affect what skills/classes (because of above reason) and so we should base our character concept only on impersonal numbers, in the hopes that we can actually do something with these numbers.

4. We can't improve our stats but we shouldn't have any motivation to do so because a character based on any kind of motivation is doomed to failure when either he finds out he can't do what he wants to do or he achieves what he's working toward and has no further motivation.

Therefore, we should all be playin characters with no future plans who don't care if they are able to accomplish anything. Seems kinda chaotic to me but you know, Mimblethorpe is all for chaos so why not.

Suggestion: If we aren't supposed to be making plans for our character or thinking about what the stats actually represent for RP, why don't we get rid of the whole stat assigning thing and assign stats randomly, then the game can be all about exploration of your personal abilities, getting to know your character and HEY! it would sure take care of the powergaming mentality of maxing a stat for the simple stupid reason of actually wanting to be good at something.

Mimblethorp wrote:Let me see if I have this all correct:

1. Character concept has nothing to do with your goals that you've been working on all your life (after all, you arent' a baby with your dad deciding your future, you're at least a quasi-adult). And has nothing to do with the skills that you have built up from childhood either.

2. Character concept in fact only has to do with your stats (I am an intelligent, clumsy, weak, observant halfling)

3. However, we are not going to be told what stats affect what skills/classes (because of above reason) and so we should base our character concept only on impersonal numbers, in the hopes that we can actually do something with these numbers.

4. We can't improve our stats but we shouldn't have any motivation to do so because a character based on any kind of motivation is doomed to failure when either he finds out he can't do what he wants to do or he achieves what he's working toward and has no further motivation.

Therefore, we should all be playin characters with no future plans who don't care if they are able to accomplish anything. Seems kinda chaotic to me but you know, Mimblethorpe is all for chaos so why not.

Suggestion: If we aren't supposed to be making plans for our character or thinking about what the stats actually represent for RP, why don't we get rid of the whole stat assigning thing and assign stats randomly, then the game can be all about exploration of your personal abilities, getting to know your character and HEY! it would sure take care of the powergaming mentality of maxing a stat for the simple stupid reason of actually wanting to be good at something.

Amen.



Just a thought... maybe these GMs who preach about character concepts and ignoring character stats feel free to do this because ... they already know all the "inside information" and everything there is to know about stats and the system...

Just a thought... maybe these GMs who preach about character concepts and ignoring character stats feel free to do this because ... they already know all the "inside information" and everything there is to know about stats and the system...

These GM's were born scum like us all and im certain they speak from thier personal Roleplay experience before and maybe after they went up a rank from scumball to a true scumball

I think what the staff/Gm's are saying is that you should create your character idea/concept and background/personality then fit the stats to this as you think they should be. A physical chatacter - good physical stats. Mage/druid good non-physical stats. If you try to max stats out you will find you cant cover all the necessary stats. So you cant be good at everything. So you either have to average your stats to cover a broad range, with a few raised in areas you want to concentrate on, or you raise a few stats high and hope they are the right ones. Common sense should generally guide you. And if you do make mistakes either scrap the character and start again or roleplay with what you have. Maybe your character will have to take a different path. Such is life. Many people grow up with dreams of what they want to be.....but end up doing something completely different.
If you definitely want to play a particular profession or type cover all the stats that could be useful.
But at the end of the day this game is not about stats and what you can do...but about the RP and interaction. So, make a character get in game and see what happens. If it turns out different to how you wanted/expected....so what? Enjoy the RP that it opens up. Enjoy the new possibilities.
As an example Jeremy was not created as a mage.....now he is.
Play and see what happens.

Jeremy Gems Willowbrook wrote:And if you do make mistakes either scrap the character and start again or roleplay with what you have. Maybe your character will have to take a different path. Such is life. Many people grow up with dreams of what they want to be.....but end up doing something completely different.

OUCH! That was just a little TOO true to life for me. I guess my problem there is that it reminds me too much of how life has ended up...I'm guessing... for many of us. That is supposed to be the beauty of a game is that you CAN be what you would like to be where in real life, that is far too often just not possible.

For my small part this has all got a little intense. Simply as it was an inoccent question from my point of view. Sian makes a perfectly acceptable arguement for the value of doing exactly what I did. Toss a character togther based on what he may have learnt from expierence and see what happens.
So not knowing for sure really doesnt spoil anything depsite the convience of knowing.
End of the day lets be honest those who want to find out will do so.
Those who are prepared to take a stab in the dark as i have will.
So everything goes on as always
Brian

I guess what I really dislike is all this realist rubbish being thrown around when this game is supposed to be a fantasy game where your dreams come true.

Games should be fun not a reenaction of dreary, morbid life that we are forced to wake up and face every day.

We can't have our dreams come true in real life so we play games. What is the point of a game that is even more of a hassle than real life?

Nevermind

The part I find flawed is:

2. Character concept in fact only has to do with your stats (I am an intelligent, clumsy, weak, observant halfling)

Two intelligent, clumsy, weak, observant halflings could be very very different and based around different concepts.

For example consider the concept: My character is a halfling who was born into a family of clockmakers. He loved learning about clockwork and playing with the little mechanisms. He would spend every hour of sunlight in the workshop, and never developed any real strength because of this. He inherited his fathers intellect, and his mothers keen eyes, and both had great hopes for him to continue the family trade. And he became a great success and a rich man. Until that is the day came when his sleeve got caught in the mechanism of a huge clock built to show the wealth and power of the king of the land he lived it. His hand was drawn into the mechanism and every bone left broken by a cog. He paid great sums to healers, and his hand did recover to some extent but he could not flex it nor do finer work any longer. He was left unable to use his tools effectively, and so was robbed of his livelihood and hobby. He fell to spending his wealth on drink until he was exiled from his home town for causing a huge drunken brawl. So he wandered the lands looking for a new home and found Illarion.

Now consider the following: My character is a halfling who grow up on a farm, but was often sickly as a child and unable to give as much strength to the farm as it required. He was also prone to daydreaming, watching the birds swooop and dive, and wondering what it is like to be as free as they. He did his best to help his family with the farming but found he was most useful thinking about the running of the place, rather than doing hard labour. He soon began handling the accounts, planning, making sure enough seed was bought, that the taxes were met, and all manner of other useful task. Still he felt his brothers resenting the fact that he did not have to lift and carry as they did, and the daily routine drove his close to despair. When he was 16 he decided that enough was enough and set out into the world to study it in more detail. He spent as long as possible wandering free in the meadows and forests, making enough money to live off by carrying messages from the towns he past to the next town along the road. He lived like this, for many years, learning all that nature has to teach him until age began to rob him. As such he decided to find some quiet place to settle and live out his years, and his thoughts wander to a peaceful island he has visited once or twice, the isle of Illarion.

Both characters could have identical stats. They are the same race and gender. With a little work they could be the same age. Are they thus identical? Not even slightly. They have some similarities, but also plenty of differences. They are also both pure concepts with no clearly defined class, but with reasonably substantial backgrounds.

Don't confuse Concept with Background. I was actually getting my definition for number 2 from my understanding of a post one of the GMs had put up

Aegohl wrote:If the concept includes that the character is fast, then agility is the stat for you, and so on. If we just hand out the information as to how the stats effect everything, then the temptation to build the concept around the stats is there, or even worse, have a concept that is seperate from the stats.

Keikan Hiru wrote:That concept is doomed to fail from the begining

I disagree entirely. Cain Freemont was based on that concept. I have a history, background, personality, and even a list of bad habits written for Cain. I think he has been a very successfully created character. His actions and reactions coincide with what has happened ingame. I find my character to be a success. Even though he is incapable of casting spells efficiently (though he was created to be a mage), I am still able to achieve some of the similar effects through roleplaying (true, I cannot take my magic to a fight, so it is something I avoid. This is all part of the way I roleplay Cain though, not because he can't kill someone with magic.)

Mimblethorp wrote:Let me see if I have this all correct:

1. Character concept has nothing to do with your goals that you've been working on all your life (after all, you arent' a baby with your dad deciding your future, you're at least a quasi-adult). And has nothing to do with the skills that you have built up from childhood either.

The goals should come after the concept, as a natural progression from that. If the goals come first or as part of the concept, the character is doomed to failure, as Keikan has already mentioned.

Mimblethorp wrote:
2. Character concept in fact only has to do with your stats (I am an intelligent, clumsy, weak, observant halfling)

No. Character concept can hold any number of definitions for the character's personality, motivations, feelings, style of social interaction, mental psychoses, etc.. On top of their social and mental self, yes, it includes their physical self as well. From this point, one can easily work backwards creating a full history, yes, but one should also consider the client and the system while doing this last part. The concept, on the other hand, is free from these concerns.

Mimblethorp wrote: 3. However, we are not going to be told what stats affect what skills/classes (because of above reason) and so we should base our character concept only on impersonal numbers, in the hopes that we can actually do something with these numbers.

Impersonal numbers? I would think that basing your stats around how they effect the client seems the impersonal route? No. You have these tools at your disposal: A definition of what these stats represent and knowledge of the minimum, maximum, and median of where these stats fall. With those tools, the stats take on meaning, and any requirements of these stats only seem logical.

Mimblethorp wrote:
4. We can't improve our stats but we shouldn't have any motivation to do so because a character based on any kind of motivation is doomed to failure when either he finds out he can't do what he wants to do or he achieves what he's working toward and has no further motivation.

As to the inability to increase stats, there are two kinds of systems employed by most roleplaying games--nature or nurture. Illarion is a nature system, which works fine in the fantasy genre, I personally believe.

As to the second part of this one, yes. When your character is a goal rather than a concept, what is he when he achieves the goal?

Mimblethorp wrote:
Therefore, we should all be playin characters with no future plans who don't care if they are able to accomplish anything. Seems kinda chaotic to me but you know, Mimblethorpe is all for chaos so why not.

No. The characters should have goals, but those goals should be a natural progression from their concept. Without that concept, the character is incapable of having goals; the goal would be the player's.

Mimblethorp wrote:
Suggestion: If we aren't supposed to be making plans for our character or thinking about what the stats actually represent for RP, why don't we get rid of the whole stat assigning thing and assign stats randomly, then the game can be all about exploration of your personal abilities, getting to know your character and HEY! it would sure take care of the powergaming mentality of maxing a stat for the simple stupid reason of actually wanting to be good at something.

There is a lot of unrelated text in there, so to answer all of it:

Your character can make plans for itself if it has a full concept. It won't need your help.

If the stats are based on your concept and you play your concept out fully, you won't ever have to think about the stats.

The last part just seems to be incoherent and based around the assumption that any of us said the statistics don't matter, which is a false assumption.

Aegohl

Cain Freemont wrote: If we want to make a druid, we should know just how much perception he or she needs, how much dexterity one will need for potion mixing, and how much intelligence...

Just to show you how stupid such a question is:

These are the best values you can give to a druid:

perception : 19 -20
intelligence : 19 -20
willpower : 19 -20
essence : 19 -20

all the rest: best as possible

So now you can think about how to make a perfect druid. Oh, wait, I see....
You can't do that because there are not enough value-points to have four attributes maxxed. And you have the problem, that such a druid will not be able to carry more than two logs out of the woods, he will die by one strike of his enemies and he will not be able to put a yarn trough his needle.

This game has no optimal way to succeed.


But let me tell you that: in future we will have not only the term "you can smith a sword" but "you can smith a sword and it will have a quality of..."
Therefore we will have very few fails than today. Also an most untalented guy will be able to make a cake, but I would rather not eat it...