Illarion.org

I agree there.

And I forgot the "Dying" skill, as in dying colors for cloths. As it is, it's easy enough to tailor, this would break it down a bit more.

Moirear Sian wrote:I agree there.

And I forgot the "Dying" skill, as in dying colors for cloths. As it is, it's easy enough to tailor, this would break it down a bit more.

I think dyes would be made by alchemists, as they only make ink at the moment. They use they new herbs and minerals for their potions.

I fail to see the point of dyes actually.

Kasume wrote:I fail to see the point of dyes actually.

Harder he dye is to make or the herbs to find it, the more of a luxery that colored clothing will be. People like luxeries, just look at the amulett of the icebird, or the flute.

Kasume wrote:I fail to see the point of dyes actually.

If you want something to be a different colour, you can use something called a dye. Hope that cleared that up for you.

Um well sory to distrupt discussion but Idea of Dividing Craft Skills should be treated more carefully
My proposal about branching skills :
Blacksmithing
- Specialisation Military Smith (wepons and armor only tohose made of metal)
- Specialisation Ciliv smith (Tools and stuff, nails, bars and so on)
Mining
There is no special division, maby skill level should let You mine one tpye of mineral (higher level more precious minerals). EG. Excellent miner would be able to mine all mineralc, and bad miner can extract only coal...
Farming
- Specialisation plant growing (wheat and so on,)
- Specialisation animal breeting
- Specialisation forester (planting and taking care of trees)
Woodcutting.
No special division
Wood procesing
Carpenter
WoodCraver
Artist ?? (to make fonts for printing press *- look at topic of rewritable books)

Druid, this case is quite complicated 'cos druids are excellent Educated about plants nad animals so dovidin Druid skills is ridicullus

Oh, I think that good tanner is capable enough to make a leather armour, but reinforced leather armour requires cooperation of CIVIL blacksmith and tanner, blacksmith makes metal plates wich are combined with leather to make R.L.A.
Making a woode buckler reqires a cooperation of carpenter, ciliv blacksmmith and military blacksmith
Ciliv blacksmith makes nails nad metal plates, tanner makes leather covering and leather strips, and carpenter make planks. And Military blacksmith then can make Wooden buckler..
I agree that military blacksmith could make nails an other metal stuff, but he is more focused on weapons and armour.
AND SO ON AND SO ON...
Farewell my friends

Well if we are going to be so intent on creating a real game:

A Swordsmith and blacksmith are entirly different professions. A black smith can make daggers and axes and shields and what not, but it takes special skill to create a sword. Also, sword came farily late in the middle ages, even towards the begining of the renaissance. And as for the fighting system (I realize this is not what this topic is about) sword were not very much used, I know we all see these gallant knight battling for hours with swords in a Lord of the rings like combat, but actually spears, throwing axes, arrows and axes were used quite a bit more. A sword was used more as a last resort, and the fighting was no where near like it was in lord of the rings. People would just more or less jab at the enemy, it was not fencing or swashbuckling like at all, it was much more "brutal" your goal was to kill them before they kill you, with what ever means neseccary.

So if you truley intend on making this game so real you should implement this, because you know, this is how it really was not lord of the rings which I know you are so against. But you know, the more I think about it the more this game seems to be based on the lord of the rings your so against, I mean hobbits, Orcs, Elves, you know that the Hobbit was tolkiens creation? You know tha every Hobbit name generator uses names from the endless family trees Tolkien made? Well perhaps we should make it Lord of the rings like? Because realisticly there are no elves, or hobbits, or orcs or trolls or ogres or anything like that.

I generally like the idea of seeing a seperation of weaponsmiths and blacksmiths.

Pronon Palmsuger wrote:But you know, the more I think about it the more this game seems to be based on the lord of the rings your so against, I mean hobbits, Orcs, Elves, you know that the Hobbit was tolkiens creation?

That's not true, there is more than enough folklore, mythology and fairy tales that preceded Lord of the Rings (timewise). In fact, Tolkien himself was inspired by celtic legends. Of course, they were not exactly as he put them to use in LotR and his tales of "Middle-Earth", but they were there—in a way.

Before you chalantly and generically put down all proposals that aspire to add some "realism" to this game, you should look into other RPGs and how they work. There's, for example, one called 'Ultima Online', where you have a vast amount of different skills, and a skill cap (limiting the total of points that can gained for skills, therefore limiting the selection of well-developed skills a character possesses). What is the result of such a system? Character interaction and teamwork suddenly grows more important. At least, more important than hundreds of jack-of-all-trades walking around like there's nothing special about it.

Most people in medieval times were more likely peasants, urban commoners, simple craftsmen (where do you think all the surnames, in essence, come from? Names like Jay Smith, John Miller, Joan Cobbler, Jack Carpenter, etc.?). Indeed alot of people have a wrong image of medieval times.

If you're saying the fantasy element should be removed completely, I'd say you might want to play a different game; although I can't think of any MMORPGs with a "realistic" scenario. Quite in the contrary, most hold a surreal setting, however try to apply common sense to the actual gaming system.

So, what's the reasoning behind approaching this "realism" in a surreal setting?

Common sense, I'd say. After all, this is not a single-player game where the goal is to have as many skills as possible and kill as many monsters as possible; quite in the contrary. This is a game where people should actually also role-play impairments, weaknesses, flaws in their characters.

So, to round up my thoughts, what's the flaw of a jack-of-all-trades?

A lack of any real focus, that's what. And the way illarion is right now, this is not the case.
Edit: Or at least, it's a role-playing issue that seems to never be resolved.

I do know Tolkien was a big fan of celitc literature, infact the finnish Saga the "Kalevala" inspired much of his work.

I am not saying remove all realism I am say that people carry this realism WAY to far, especially without thinking about what is real! they say "oh in RL you can't smith for hours upon hours" yeah and you cant be a hobbit and you CAN till and water farmland and Farming would have been the #1 profession. Im saying if you going to talk about realism then fucking do it. people say "oh we want this to be real! not LOTR!" but actually this game is nothing like real life.

Sorry about that, dont mean to rant, I guess I should get my panties out of a bunch eh?

-> Moonsilver <-

Oftenly called the "true source" of illarion's background information.
Now, if everybody would read it, and stick with it, it would not be "like" LotR (and the races don't count as a reason for comparison, there are by far too many games that use these races, and depending on backgrounds, they always differ—compare LotR, AD&D, and illarion elves, for example—all three settings have a different "setup" for elves).

As for my last post up there, I noticed something interesting.
Try replacing the term "common sense" with "game balance".
Yeah, I thought so.

End of my rant.

Anybody else have anything contructive to say about splitting up craft skills or not?

Moirear Sian wrote:I generally like the idea of seeing a seperation of weaponsmiths and blacksmiths.

Pronon Palmsuger wrote:But you know, the more I think about it the more this game seems to be based on the lord of the rings your so against, I mean hobbits, Orcs, Elves, you know that the Hobbit was tolkiens creation?

That's not true, there is more than enough folklore, mythology and fairy tales that preceded Lord of the Rings (timewise). In fact, Tolkien himself was inspired by celtic legends. Of course, they were not exactly as he put them to use in LotR and his tales of "Middle-Earth", but they were there—in a way.

Before you chalantly and generically put down all proposals that aspire to add some "realism" to this game, you should look into other RPGs and how they work. There's, for example, one called 'Ultima Online', where you have a vast amount of different skills, and a skill cap (limiting the total of points that can gained for skills, therefore limiting the selection of well-developed skills a character possesses). What is the result of such a system? Character interaction and teamwork suddenly grows more important. At least, more important than hundreds of jack-of-all-trades walking around like there's nothing special about it.

Most people in medieval times were more likely peasants, urban commoners, simple craftsmen (where do you think all the surnames, in essence, come from? Names like Jay Smith, John Miller, Joan Cobbler, Jack Carpenter, etc.?). Indeed alot of people have a wrong image of medieval times.

If you're saying the fantasy element should be removed completely, I'd say you might want to play a different game; although I can't think of any MMORPGs with a "realistic" scenario. Quite in the contrary, most hold a surreal setting, however try to apply common sense to the actual gaming system.

So, what's the reasoning behind approaching this "realism" in a surreal setting?

Common sense, I'd say. After all, this is not a single-player game where the goal is to have as many skills as possible and kill as many monsters as possible; quite in the contrary. This is a game where people should actually also role-play impairments, weaknesses, flaws in their characters.

So, to round up my thoughts, what's the flaw of a jack-of-all-trades?

A lack of any real focus, that's what. And the way illarion is right now, this is not the case.
Edit: Or at least, it's a role-playing issue that seems to never be resolved.

I know Im new but I agree with everything Moirear said.

There should be a skill cap, otherwise there is no true community and in the spirit of role playing having everyone be able to do every skill defeats that concept.