Elaralith: Orcs and Lyrenzia

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:16 am

This thread is in regard to your comment in the rpg board about orcs not being able to roleplay under Lyrenzia.

If you haven't realized it, Troll's Bane is town where people are living together. It doesn't make any sense for an orc to go ripping the innards of someone in broad daylight and then sharing a drink with the townsfold the next day who don't care about it. An orc who couldn't control his urge to kill people wouldn't be living in a civilized town unless he wanted to risk the law enforcers of a town to punish him, so that's his choice.

Roleplay isn't just about the character itself, but also about interacting with the environment around you, so you have to deal with the environment that the other characters have created. An orc in a town of civilized people is "an orc in a town of civilized people", not only an "orc".

Gargoth Targûn · Post by **Gargoth Targûn** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:58 am

I play an orc, and I think I play a good orc. He has what you might call two non orc "friends" and he would cut their heads off for the right price or an order from his chief basically.

Now there is not a whole bunch of orcs around always, so rather than doing nothing I try to do something with the people that are. My orc is rude, he can be quite aggressive depending on what happends or if he is in a bad mood. However what is rather funny is that I have killed quite a few people but not once did I draw first blood...many were elven non the less. I read the moonsilver site about orcs and it does not say they are overly agressive and can not get along with others at all. Infact it is the other way around more than anything. The following scenario has put me in quite a few fights where I was attacked first:

"Someone" Hey! orc
"Me" What?!
"Someone" (Some kind of question, do you sell this or that etc.)
"Me" No!...now go..way! (myself starts to walk away...)

Now what happens is that the person apparently unable to accept my rudeness wich comes from being and orc and uninterrested in them goes after me with a sword and starts to hack at me.
If I get insulted I usually just insult back, or well sometimes I start it names for races such as longear, fishface, small, short, and stupid human is quite common vocabulary. Only thing I think I do wrong sometimes is being less agressive than so many others, but if I was to fit by having more agressivness than many halflings and elves (wich I would concider the least agressive..) I would basically be reduced to PKing by going "Hello, you die now" and hack them down.

It isn't exactly easy playing an orc, and the way some talk of them people would be scared of them but is anyone? Noone is scared of a 43*** number orc unless they are far below themselves, well I actually once met an elven woman who was and kept pointing her bow at me so three cheers for her even if she knew she could kill me in a shot or two.

I do not think the orcs are so wrong but rather that the people are wrong towards the orcs, we are forced to be in the same town as everyone else not like there is any other place. There really is not enough orcs to stay and RP with only orcs all the time or to go with them and RP "against" others. We also need to trade for goods and things with others and either there is no orc that has what you need or that orc is not around. If an orc asks to trade with an elf many would say bad RP at that, but if it is the other way around it isn't anything strange basically.

As for Lyrenzia putting some restrictions on orc RP I do not really see that, unless of course you want the orcs to start killing and stealing at a high rate. I could care less about Lyrenzia as an orc he never swore alligence to them in any way and will do whatever he wishes within server rules, he dislikes stealing however as it just shows weakness for him and wouldn't unless it was too much to resist or was ordered to. As for killing people in self defence (where he sometimes did start the whole thing by insulting someone, never yet did he have to attack first though) he probably has a week of prison hours according to Lyrenzia laws. Funny how there was never a trial against him...maybe because he didn't attack first?

Being called a human orc is like the worst insult he could imagine however and next time someone does this there will be little warning and alot less threats to cut them open and feast on their insides...I am pretty sure that would be within server rules to attack and possibly kill. Goes against Lyrenzia I am sure but well "Orc..not cares..stupid..Lyrnensnina!"

Crocket · Post by **Crocket** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:42 pm

I believe the orcs should limit their presence in town, because of their general rudeness and lawless behaviour.
Also Lyrenzia should limit their rule to within the town walls. Crimes that happen outside the town walls should be out of Lyrenzia's control.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 10:54 pm

It is unwritten, but personally it would be my policy to have the jurisdiction of Lyrenzia within town boundaries only to allow possible "deviant" activities away from civilization.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:43 pm

Well if the law of Lyrenzia is only for inside Troll's Bane then I have no more words because obviously then the Rp of orc chars and such will nto be inhibited as they can Rp their violence outside of town.

Setherioth · Post by **Setherioth** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:48 pm

As it should be. If a person wants to RP a violent orc, he should realise he will not be welcome in town. It is his own choosing. A person can easily play a nicer or not as wild orc, there are abnormalities in every race.

Konstantin K · Post by **Konstantin K** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:01 am

When my character appeared in town for the very first time, I was kind of cautious of orcs, I could say that I was scared of them. It happened when a bunch of orcs caused some trouble in the tavern. It was quite some time till I got used to the rude manner of orcs and it took some more time to accept these orcs as a part of Troll's Bane community, well I don't know, but most orcs I meet are good RP orcs.

As for player of Gargoth, I think of him as a good player, and Gargoth himself, i know, is a good orc character, orc to the bone. And even though he is rude, grumpy, and stern, he cares a lot more about others then those of their own kind.

Kzarak Zhoruch · Post by **Kzarak Zhoruch** » Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:07 pm

I agree to 95% to all what Dyluck wrote.

But who is the criticism aimed at, the example-orc or the townspeople?

If no one cares about an orc that commits murder and drinks beer in the tavern the next day, there is some serious flaws in upholding the law of the town.
Naturally the orc as well behaves very weird.

What about so called "civilized" orcs that commit murder or another crime?

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:08 am

I was responding to a comment by Elaralith that Lyrenzia prevents orcs from roleplaying.

Kzarak Zhoruch wrote:
What about so called "civilized" orcs that commit murder or another crime?

Every civilized person might still commit a crime of course, and have to deal with the consequences like everyone else...
So.. I'm not quite sure what exactly your point or question is..

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:28 am

So Dyluck your back?

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:38 am

Kind of...
Need to see how things go.
Just got a little time to make some posts now.

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 4:21 pm

IMO:

Lyrenzia cant hold the right to tell anyone how to RP under them. That goes FAR beyond their IN GAME limitations. Play your orc in town, and enjoy it. Lyrenzia cant tell you how to be your char, they can only throw you in jail for faulty reasons.

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 4:28 pm

IMO,
I think it is dumb that people can go to jail for ingame reasons. Before Lyrenzia, people only went to jail for breaking the game's rules, now you go for 10 hours when you roleplay killing someone. To me, this is just plain stupid. Soon no one will even fight because they don't want to spend time in jail. It is fun to do this, it is fun to begin riots in town, it is fun to strike fear in newer player's hearts because you are a known killer. But with Lyrenzia no one will do that. No one wants to roleplay thieves anymore, because people will just report them to Lyrenzia and they'll spend 5 hours in jail. 5 hours in jail for stealing in game, for roleplaying a theif you get 5 hours of jail. Hell I don't like roleplaying Grant as a killer anymore, even out of town, because I'd end up in jail for roleplaying a ruthless right hand man to Darlok. But that is my roleplay, and in a way, going to jail is kind of like forced roleplay.

Summary:
Lyrenzia shouldn't be able to jail persons for ingame reasons, only for OOC reasons. If they keep this up, no one will roleplay bad guys ever.

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 4:32 pm

Lyrenzia ONLY jails for InGame Reasons. Murder, Theft, ect. ...

GMs ONLY jail for OOC Reason.

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 4:34 pm

I know, that is why I am saying it is stupid for people to go to jail for ingame reasons. For instance, how long do people normally go to jail from you the GMs?

Arkadia Misella · Post by **Arkadia Misella** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 4:36 pm

Sidenote to what grant said
Playing a bad character is pretty darn hard too...and seems to be getting harder...unless you have godly powers like darlok...lucky guy...but oh well..soon there will only ge good guys..then we will see how fun the game is

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 4:37 pm

There is no way to compare this.

If I dont ban the player right away, I will send him into prison for a time I think its right.

To remember you, the Player asked to make Punishments from Lyrenzia harder, so they did it.

As far as i know, the Keyholder of Lyrenzia are playing quite good the role of Jailers.
If you dont want to get caught by them, dont go into the Town.

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 4:38 pm

But a ballpark answer Keiken, an estimate... here, lets say for multi-pking, something dunthor did a lot.

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 4:40 pm

From some Minutes (to calm down someone) up to several hours.
Multi-PK (wihtout reason) means ban for me.

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 4:47 pm

Ok, then lets say several hours are... 5-7? 5-10? Doesn't really matter. For killing 1 person you go to jail for 10 hours. And before Darlok started his quest there was no where to go outside of town because of the lack of depots.
And my point is, I think it is silly for people to go to jail for roleplaying certain things. I don't think normal players should be "keyholders", that just be held for the GMs, it would really be the downfall of Illarion's roleplay. I may be a bit drastic, but this is what I think Illarion will sound like in a year with Lyrenzia around...

Person 1- Hm, what to do today lads?

Person 2- Perhaps battle a demon? Or a friendly sparing session?

Person 3- I don't know... I am getting bored in this town, we fight demons everyday, nothing else...

Person 1- But what is wrong with that friend?

Person 3- Nothing I am just tired of it..

Person 2- Come on, it'll be fun once we get there...

*the small group walks to the entrance of the wall were 1 person stands stopping them*

The Last bad guy- You cannot pass, you must pay a fee of 1 ingot each.

Person 1- I think not, you will move for us.

The last bad guy- If you do not pay I will turn you around, forcefully if nessasary.

Person 2- If you try it, we will report you to Lyrenzia and you will spend the rest of the day in jail.

*reluctantly the bad guy moves and the 3 players march off to kill demons.*

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 4:52 pm

Yesterday a friend of mine wanted to make a thieve character

I had to tell her she shouldent, becuase she would be sent to jail to often

Back in the middle ages, thieves were found, and punished by the victim, in fact, rarely would a thieve be tried and sent to prison for thieving unless it was thieving from a hierarchial member. since Lyrenzia, is hardly a goverment, let along a hierarchy, they should have next to zero authority over thieves.

And I personally dont remember making lyrenzia punishments harder, in fact, the only players I think did, are the lyrenzian "council" in itself.

As for murder, and multi pk (W/o reason) thats just plain banning material, and murder With reason, thats reasonably trialible material.

but what I see is if someone is killed........and someone is found guilty, they go to jail. But, isent it the reason, not the action behind it that should be on trial?

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 4:53 pm

As far as I understand the Lyrenzia Concept they are only responsible for Crimes inside of Trolls Bane.

But anyway, the direction your are taking is a Player-to-Player Problem.

Ask Aragon and Dyluck, those are the one competent enouth to answer the Question how Lyrenzia handles Cimes outside and inside of Trolls Bane.

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 4:55 pm

Ok, thank you for answering my question Keiken.

Gargoth Targûn · Post by **Gargoth Targûn** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 4:55 pm

Somehow I really really doubt people prone to commiting crimes such as theft and murder voted to make prison times longer, and if they did well uh yea...lol on them

I still think being jailed if you are caught in town is fine, but I mean if you do escape and hide away outside I really think it is just kinda wierd to just be jailed. Going out and capturing someone and forcing them to jail however I would really have no problem with, obviously to find the criminals would be ridiculously hard and it would not be fair cause they could never jail anyone and the criminal could just run into town kill or steal and then run away again and be safe. And of course it is not fair for the criminal to do a crime then go into hiding somewhere and just wake up in jail all of a sudden. The "keymaster" or whatever cannot possibly be asked to simply find everyone, and a really cool thing would be to send enforcers or bounty hunters to "catch" the criminal and then he could be jailed. Of course this would take some player interaction and mutual agreements ie: "we manage to kill you once and you come to jail and if we fail you are free" with the exeptions that the criminal could simply surrender or do a good RP struggle and get off the hook for the time being.

I know I could go along with something like this if I did anything wrong and deserved jail. But I guess most would just run away and log off and then whine when they go to jail anyway.
And Ark, playing a somewhat evil char might be hard but it is just so much more fun

Arkadia Misella · Post by **Arkadia Misella** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 4:57 pm

still...the "bad guys" of the game need a break..oh yeah, im on trial again and will probably go to jail..whoohoo..fun fun fun fun ((being really sarcastic))

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 5:04 pm

simple way to solve the problem, leave town.

Arkadia Misella · Post by **Arkadia Misella** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 5:09 pm

its annoying since there is only one town...and eventually I will have to go back, believe it or not

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 5:10 pm

.. Bloodskull cave duh!

Arkadia Misella · Post by **Arkadia Misella** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 5:13 pm

Imagine a new map....with a few towns, one for each race, and each one with a government like lyrenzia...."shudders" then imagine they all unite to rule the whole land "shudders again"

Caranthir the great · Post by **Caranthir the great** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 5:14 pm

Returner, If a thief WAS caught in middle ages, he/she was mecilessly mutilated Ie. lost hand, ear, nose or some other visual part of their body, and since people would not probably accept this kind of solution either, they just need to comply with being jailed.

Back in the middle ages, thieves were found, and punished by the victim, in fact, rarely would a thieve be tried and sent to prison for thieving unless it was thieving from a hierarchial member. since Lyrenzia, is hardly a goverment, let along a hierarchy, they should have next to zero authority over thieves.

This is untrue, as far as I know. The community punished the thieves, be that the town guard or village elder, rarely was the need for punishing left for the victim.

Arkadia, if you are going to steal and kill, you better expect to get yourself in trouble. Being stupid doesn't pay, take a look at Microsoft. They are perfectly evil, yet they don't run around killing people.