Lyrenzia laws

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:34 am

Greetings,
On close inspection I have found that in the "laws of Lyrenzia" it states that killing is not allowed without valid reason. But nowhere does it state exactly what a "valid reason" is as defined by Lyrenzia. I think that this should be corrected and valid reasons for killing written clearly down as to prevent the abuse of the judging power of Lyrenzia. I say abuse because currently it is Lyrenzia that can decide what a "valid reason" is at any time and that as I am sure you can see is really unfair and injust. Again, I would like to see the valid reasons stated out clearly!
Elara with you,
~Elaralith, Priestess of Elara~

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:43 am

My opinion on the matter is that when the court case has begun Lyrenzia should determine whether or not the reason is valid. This way you do not know what a valid reason is, and it will make people think twice before trying to kill someone.

It would be hard to set an exact point as to where the reason becomes valid, they could only list reasons that aren't valid otherwise people could find a petty way of murdering someone that isn't on the 'valid reasons list'. Detailing such a list would be a tedious, near impossible task to complete.

Hermie

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:46 am

Then what do you as the people, consider to be a valid reason to take another person's life? Or do you consider that any valid reason at all exists to take another's life without punishment.

~Dyluck~

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:48 am

It isn't hard to make a list of general valid reasons in my view. That is what laws are all about. If you want a law system there needs to be work and it is complex. A "half-way" law system is worse than no law system at all wouldn't you agree? If such detailed laws as there already can be made a list of valid reasons can be made too.
I would expect such valid reasons as:
Being stolen from
Being insulted/harrassed
Being attacked first

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:51 am

I always thought that taking anyone's life was a grave act. I don't see how people take it so lightly, you killed someone. You took their life and you never know if maybe just maybe Cherga will claim that spirit.
I think killing under any circumstance except when you are attacked isn't valid. Also I thought the law was assulting without a valid reason, not murdering.

~unsigned~

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:54 am

Those laws are not very detailed.

For the first, being stolen from; if someone was to steal a single cabbage from me, it is theft. I do not see how 1 cabbage can ammount to a person's life being taken.

Being insulted/harrased; These should not be the same law. If someone calls me stupid because I fell over, that is no valid reason to kill someone.
If someone harrases me verbally it would not be a valid reason to kill, where if they were harrasing me physically to a certain point, then death would be a last resort. You can't say 'He pushed me once' is a good reason to kill someone.

The third, being attacked first (acting in self defence) I see as reasonable.

Hermie

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:55 am

How very harsh. Unfortunately I'm fairly certain there are a good number of people who are more lenient. To give the right to take someone's life for petty theft or an insult is quite unsettling. I wait to hear more opinions other people of this town have. You the people, will need to add more details as well to the ammendments you desire.

~Dyluck~

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 4:08 am

Sorry I have to go OOC
((The thing is that Lyrenzia inhibits Rp in a very big way right now. How do you Rp an orc when every time you do something that is natural for a orc you get jailed? Different characteres have different responses, and the characters that have responses like death to anyone who insults them or steals from them should not have to go to jail and be removed from the Rp))

Hermie,
The Lyrenzia laws that punish thievery are harsher than any single time killing. Going to jail means dying multiple times as you are assaulted by skeletons there. Not going to jail and being exiled also means dying multiple times as anyone can attack you....

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:06 am

Dying multiple times? You say that as if we were all immortal and ressurection is simply a daily occurance and not a miracle.
Staying or travelling to and from the prison does not require the convict to fight any skeletons. That would just be silly.

~Dyluck~

Fieps · Post by **Fieps** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:03 am

I agree with the fact, that the laws and rules from Lyrenzia should be more detailed, to make it more clear for everyone.
I hope and think that this will happen when the Lyrenzia Councilor find the time to enlarge their "writings".

________________
Fieps

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:18 am

Time is not a very huge resource of Lyrenzia councilors, which is why our main part is to organize the decision of the important issues and put them into effect. The part of the masses is for concerned citizens to give more details about how they want changes to the law, so please be more specific if you have ideas and think about the additional issues that might come with it. For example if "insluting' was a valid reason to strike back against someone, is strking back 3 days later valid? What should the standard time be?

So please try and address your opinion on some of the problematic issues that come with your ideas. Then Lyrenzia can make a final plan out of it and solve controversial issues through public elections.

~Dyluck~

Gargoth Targûn · Post by **Gargoth Targûn** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 7:17 am

A poorly scribbled note is stuck on the wall with a rusty dagger, it is quite hard to make it out

Manies words but sometimes is good as human ats hand me can sends him ways now

It works likes so. If me attacked me kills if me insulted an goods mood insults back if bad mood smash face someone steals me it dies unless give back ME dedcide what me think good reason is! Me do what want it simply nexttime lalalith stupid longear insult goes fish for face in river if me go jail me laugh all time bouts it

the note is "signed" with a big blob of spit

Aradhul · Post by **Aradhul** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 8:44 am

I think Lyrenzia and all who follow there laws are fools. My law and the law of the darkgodess are the only ones I follow. The Lyrenzia are not even enforcing there laws 'sneers'. I personally have killed many people and some time even infront of the Lyrenzia so called enforcers 'sneers'.
You think I am harsh well grow up the world is harsh kill or be killed.

~servant of the Darkgodess~

Tamurom · Post by **Tamurom** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:39 am

Dakhath wrote:I think Lyrenzia and all who follow there laws are fools. My law and the law of the darkgodess are the only ones I follow. The Lyrenzia are not even enforcing there laws 'sneers'. I personally have killed many people and some time even infront of the Lyrenzia so called enforcers 'sneers'.
You think I am harsh well grow up the world is harsh kill or be killed.

~servant of the Darkgodess~

You and your darkgodess must be not very smart then, because now if one of your victims want to get you in prison, they could use your little confession against you in a trial.

Aradhul · Post by **Aradhul** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 1:46 pm

HAHA you are a fool arent you do you really think i would say something like this without a plan. HAHAHA

Armil Darken · Post by **Armil Darken** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 2:37 pm

I do not wish for to Lyrenza to exist, I liked the freedom of anarchy, I did not break any of the rules that it has laid down. If I could simply kill one individual and take it down, I would, but going against so many is pointless and eccessive killing and then something would come again. ((And it is a detriment to RP.)) The only people that use this system are the ones that are too weak on ther own. Lyrenza just protects them. I have been attacked or stolen from and "setteled" it with the person on my own. I had no need for a group of judges to decide righ from wrong, in a since ther is neither it is an opinion, so the system is already corrupt. But I will not try to fight it, I wont accept it, but I will wait for it to pass like most elves do with their troubles.

The message is left unsigned. ((Hence noone can get (In good RP) mad at me for posting this or even hold it against me.))

Kordaluc · Post by **Kordaluc** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:12 pm

Laws of Lyrenzia? This is nonsence. I have been away for no more than ninety moons and some made up laws crept upon the desolant island of Illarion?! This is an outrage. Trollsbane has been fine before.. why add these useless laws to it? I for one will not follow this fake nonsence, and will trust only in what i belive should be done.

-'Kordaluc'

Aerinkoth · Post by **Aerinkoth** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 7:48 pm

If somebody steals my meat, I will kill them. If somebody attempts to get in a verbal war with me, I will kill them. I don't care how small a reason is, common sense tells one not to do these things to avoid death:

1.) Stealing, no matter how small the item.
2.) Insulting, depending on the degree.
3.) Attacking, with or without provocation.
4.) Causing one or more to attack, with or without provocation.

-Unknown

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 10:35 pm

Lyrenzia is a sorry excuse for authority. They use fear, insults, and intimidation against anyone who speaks against them, and their current actions contradict what they said when Lyrenzia was origionally made.

Aerinkoth · Post by **Aerinkoth** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 10:39 pm

Then live outside the town Fooser, they seem to control the damn civilization anyway. The woods have always served as my true home.

-Unknown

Algoran · Post by **Algoran** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:18 pm

An idea Aerinkoth certainly, but you forget the shop. Lyrenzia know we cannot survive without coming into town to buy provisions. Though a lot of us have trades that can provide most things, we still need to buy what we cannot make or grow. There is also storage. We cannot leave our goods in the open lest they rot or are stolen. The town is the only place with depots, unless you wish to try and live with the Ogres. Lyrenzia have us by the throat, beware for there will come a day when they will be in a position to squeeze the life out of any that disagree with them.

Algoran.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:50 pm

If you are stolen from
Insulted
Attacked

I think that the timespan for these valid reasons for attacking back should be around 5 days (the same time as a judicial trial...) as it
Takes time to catch a thief
It takes time to find a harrasser
It takes time to hunt down a murderer

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:59 pm

It would be nice to see this summed up in a few days time, because as I have said before in the laws of Lyrenzia is repeatedly states "no killing without a valid reason" but nowhere is a valid reason definied.

Townsfolk please post your opinions so we can have this over with.

Algoran · Post by **Algoran** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:38 am

Is someone insulting someones name and making stories up about their past a valid reason. Just wondering Elarilith, weaver of tales and deciet. Ask me of my name before you insult me in the presence of others "priestess".

Algoran.

Vindigan · Post by **Vindigan** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:50 am

I thought the point in the trial was to see if it is valid reason. If it isnt, then it should be.

Tamurom · Post by **Tamurom** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 3:33 am

It is absurd that you can kill someone for such petty reasons. It should only be that they can fight back, and only while the incident is still occuring. You shouldn't be allowed to go hunt someone a few days later for stealing and insults. You should have to find the court to settle that, and if you don't have enough proof for court, you will get in trouble anyways if you try and attack that person and can't prove they stole or insulted you.

I don't think insults should be considered a reason. We should be allowed to say what we want.

Tamurom

Adano Eles · Post by **Adano Eles** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 2:46 pm

There is no valid reason to take someone elses life. No mortal has the right to decide over life and death of another mortal being.
Killing is never a valid solution for any situation, even if it is the only possible solution. If you are forced to kill someone, you should always be aware that you destroy something unique, something created and blessed by our Gods.
Therefore I vote that there are no changes be made to the existing laws. "Valid reasons" are never defined by words on paper, but by specific situations.

Adano Eles

Knight of the Grey Rose
Student of the Khana Len; Apprentice of the Great Temple of the Five and Eleven

Maktan Hardtooth. · Post by **Maktan Hardtooth.** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 3:44 pm

If I were insulted, I would call out for a duel. he can accept or refuse. if he refuses, that all witnesses can spread rumor of this coward and ruin his reputation and honor. If he agree's I give time for him to be ready ((10 min)) and then we duel. He has a choice to surrender((backing up from my reach)), to win, or die fighting. This is how I judged. And if thieves caught in the act do not repay me double of what they owe me I chase them out of town, and if I see them in town, I slay them. If they are treated lightly, it encourage more thievery, so strictness is the best. And any one who threatens me physically, I kill with no guilt. This is my rules, and it is perfect for others.((an honor system is what we need, some People in illa has no sense of honor)) ((I was not on illa for a couple of months and still won't be for a short while. So can anyone PM me of the so called changes in illa?))

Algoran · Post by **Algoran** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:53 pm

I disagree Adano. Just because something is "unique" does not mean it is a good thing. If killing is needed then kill. Your gods may frown upon it but not all gods do.

Algoran.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:22 am

So Adano you would let live a demon who is killing everyone. Demons were created by the gods too you know.

I tell you there are many mortal beings that can be like demons. And there are definitely many reasons one can think of that would be a valid reason to destroy such evil that there is.