Stop complaining

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:33 am

I have a proposal.
How about you people (you know who you are) stop complaining about the changes and stop proposing about having these excellent changes reversed? Mortars being broken and needles being dropped are all very logical to me and I commend the GMs and illarion staff who implemented it. It only works to reduce powergaming and increase player interaction. For all of you lazy bums who got used to having "imperishable" work tools, my advice: wake up and stop whining about no longer being allowed to be lazy and get to powergame. Instead start walking around and doing some player interaction because that is what Rp is all about. You break your needle? Find a smith.
-Elaralith

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 1:24 am

Elaralith, I would be happy if the needle breaks, but it doesn't, you drop it, and thats it, the needle that Moathia uses was one she had as a child, and means a lot to her character, if she droped that needle she would hunt non stop till she finds it again, if it broke, she would be upset, but it makes no sence that you mearly drop somthing and don't look for it. Also, Elaralith, I remeber days where you would take great deal of cloth and spend about half an hour making items.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 2:25 am

And I will continue having Elaralith spend lots of time sewing; she is a tailor afterall (Powergaming is repeatedly doing something without Rp reason). But Elaralith will now have to interact with smiths won't she?

Falk vom Wald · Post by **Falk vom Wald** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 8:20 am

After we had so many tools breaking, we thought about a little alternative text that comes up with a lost needle. If you really think it's an basic need for your roleplay we can make a sentence like "you drop the needle and it breaks" - no problem. But what the hell do I explain to those who will come and declare that needles never break when you drop them and that they only use their needles on grass?

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 8:40 am

Elaralith, unless you have a character that knows what it's like to "drop" a mortar that magically bursts in flames once it touches the ground everytime you make ten potions, then you don't really have a credible opinion in this part. Newbie characters start out poor, and it's very pricey for druids when they have to buy an astronomical amount of tools (mortars, sickles, bottles, or even axes for the wood if you make your own bottles and shovels for sand digging) just to make enough money to survive. The mages have even more advantage over druids than they already had, and that seems a bit peculiar to me. Smiths and miners just have to pay for shovels and hammers, carpenters have to pay for axes and saws, mages don't really have to pay for squat, but druids have to pay for sickles, bottles or bottle making tools, AND mortars now? In the Dark Ages, do you really think would be alchemists bought a completely new tool after being stupid and clumsy enough to 'drop' it that many times?

Anyway, just tell me...does it make sense to drop a clay made bowl, in the grass, while you're sitting, holding it on the bottom, and maybe at a maximum of one foot off the ground, then have it disappear into the infinity of space for some odd reason? It doesn't to me, and it doesn't make sense to play a 'realistic' RPG if the 'realism' all applies to the disadvantages while the advantages seem left alone. It's not 100% real life simulated of course, but the first rule about any kind of game is that it's not supposed to aim for pure realism...namely, because it's a game, an escape from real life. I'm busy living a life of my own, and don't have time to live one on the computer like others do. In something like a Final Fantasy game, it takes roughly 100 hours of playing time to master everything. In a multiplayer game like this that should last, it would make sense to have 250-300 hours to master at least one skill, but nowadays, it takes several times this long...depending on the kind of 'player' that you are.

Listen, I like roleplaying, but let's not pretend skills do not exist. I don't think it's so awful to be practicing something just to get better at it, but at the best rate I can go, it will probably take my new character a real life year if not more just to be noticed for some craft or another.

Of course Illarion is a great RPG with great potential, I'm just hoping my opinions count for something. Unfortunately, the GMs and moderators these days seem to be concentrating more on reducing powergaming rather than making 'real' roleplaying things. Things like the smelly ogres and the desert were just 'events' that ruin a trade for people. How long were the monsters gone? Six weeks or so? It makes me wonder how the heck acclaimed tailorers and combatants could even afford to put food in their bellies. Somebody, somewhere, is going to be a powergaming cronker, no matter how hard they tried to reduce it (unless they just stopped skill gain all together). Heck, there are three or four newbies that can already kill demons! In the slightly older days, I never saw ten Muten Roshi fighters walking around, not everybody was a master blacksmith, few were master carpenters. I miss those days, where town attacks happened and such. They sometimes seemed excessive, but let's face it, it gave people a thrill. And it made people lose a bit of skill if they died, who cares? At least the loss wasn't in vain. But things like this desert just gets irritating, because it's nothing truly exciting in roleplaying, for me; just a weather change that is going to last a while, and get in the way of a craft. I wouldn't mind it, but it lacks a fun roleplaying element in my opinion; action, puzzle solving, SOMETHING. Serpardum, COME BACK! He represented the period of fun GMs that helped with RP, the GMs these days seem to sit around not roleplaying a single bit, enforcing non existant rules in OOC (or at least from what I witnessed).

Anyway, the older days were fun. Why not just go back to the policy of deleting powergamers, and letting everybody else spend more time roleplaying than improving trying to gain a bloody shade of red on the thing they're working on a day? Old players eventually leave sometime, therefore the high skilled people are gone as a flood of newbies come in...if this holds true, and I think it does, there will never be a period of time where everybody is too skilled at everything.

However, I really like the idea of removing the firesword from the blacksmithing list. At least the firesword, in time, can be known as an actual 'enchanted' weapon, not just some tool every person in the populace has.

Am I a programmer of Illarion? No. Do I know anybody important to Illarion? Not really. Do I even speak the original tongue of the creators of Illarion? Of course not. But I don't see anything wrong with ideas or opinions from somebody afar.

Just had to get that off my chest.

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 10:43 am

Bloodhearte, I am impressed. I am deeply impressed how wrong your view of GMs is.

GMs are not Part of the Roleplay, at least thats how it should be.
GMs intercepting with thier GM Chars in Roleplay of "normal Players" make a huge mistake.
(My Opinion)

I dont even understand how you can say there is no Roleplaying going on.
You are in the middle of a huge Quest! But most player seem to be too blind to even notice it !
Or they are too lazy to join, but than dont complain.

How many 'Powergamers' have I deleted the last days? None.
I told them to stop, and they did it.
How many Changes did we to reduce 'Powergaming'? None.
All changes where planed long ago and support the Gameenviroment.
(Or have you seen a Smith crafting his Tools in bare Hands?)

Falk vom Wald · Post by **Falk vom Wald** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 10:47 am

Once again:
Your statements are welcome. You can believe me, one of our first jobs is to read the boards and to talk with users about what has to happen next. So you should not quarrel about different opinions, but try to find out which one is to prefer - not for you and your char, but for the game and Illarions society. And we have to decide what can be done. There are things we all would love to see ingame at once, but as they need a lot of coding they are no "quickies" or maybe they will never come because of their influence on other parts of the game. Then there are things that can be easily done. Sometimes we just put something in to try out and see how users will react. Sometimes small things develope the game more than big updates would do. If possible, we try to give smooth changes like evolution would. Sometimes we break into char's life like steamhammer.
Don't fight each other ooc. Don't we alle spend our free-time for the same?

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:07 pm

Yes, there is a quest going on, but surprsingly enough, it seems that only the German poulace is getting information on it. On Tuesday, there was a big meeting of German players, who all went to the ogre cave and found Darlok, all the English speaking players at the time were left out of this, we were told nothing, all we could do, was get little scraps of information from the germans, who never bothered to tell us anything in English, so it was dwn to the meager translation skills of myself and a few others, and we managed to get as far as, Darlok somoning Rotworms, and somthing about building a castle.

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:08 pm

I was there too, hidden, all imporant Persons of this Quest spoke English all the Time.

We cant stop Player from speaking thier mothertongue, but we can influence the Main-Persons.

Sun Long · Post by **Sun Long** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:27 pm

I tried to translate during the meeting even Fieps does. But believe me, it was very hard to listen to everybody and translate everything that was said.
If possible we always try to integrate all languages.
Please don't be angry if that doesn't work all the time. And nobody of us knew before how the meeting ends .

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:53 pm

The meeting about the drought became German after a while, and everyone who didn't speak German left, then all the Germans went to the ogre cave, no one stoped tot ell the English speakers what had happened, so, if Darlok was talking in English, it didn't help us at all, because we were never even told about him, then they all came back, and had a meeting in the middle of the town, with everyone talking german, with some minor translation for the English speakers who don't understand the smallest bit of German, I'm lucky enough to have been made to study German in school for four years, but even then, that was all basic things, so I couldn't understand most of what they said.

Sun Long · Post by **Sun Long** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 1:25 pm

That's sad for all english speaking people but we don't think all the time *we must translate* when we are fascinated by the story. First of all we are players just like you and no translaters. Sorry, but that's a fact.

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 1:28 pm

I never said you were a translator, but obviously that was an extremly important part of this quest, and the English players have missed it meaning we now can't help solve it.

Sun Long · Post by **Sun Long** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 1:37 pm

I understand that you are a bit angry about it. But in that situation it wasn't possible to translate the whole story. Even a summary wasn't (for me) possible 'cause I was caught by the story. And if we spoke english all the time, what about the players who can't understand this? It's a pity but you can't make it right for everybody.
Please try to understand.

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 1:51 pm

I do understand, but the problem is, more people in the game don't understand German, than the number of people who don't understand English, and now the larger portion of those two side have no idea whats going on, I saw people like Damien, at that meeting, and he speaks better English than most Americans, there were people I knew couldn't speak English there either, but if things like this keep happening, and the majority are left out in favour of the minority, then lots of people will leave, because why play when, everytime something important happens, we get left behind because no one bothers to tell us whats going on.

Avaloner · Post by **Avaloner** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 1:57 pm

Most try to speak english and then everbody runs away at the end was only german player and why we should not speak our language
In the cave Darlok has speak english the whole time so don't lie here.

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 2:02 pm

Avaloner, the English speakers went away because the meeting turned German, then the German players went away to find Darlok with out telling any of the English speakers what was going on, then he spoke English, which was no use to us, because none of the German players had told us anything was happening so we never went, then you all came back, and had a big meeting in German, where no one told the English players what was going on! You have every right to speak your own langauge, but it as the fact, that none of you told any of the player who spoke English somthing important happened, has bascily put the majority of players at a huge disadvantage in this quest, making us useless, and making it pointless for us to do anything!

Avaloner · Post by **Avaloner** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 2:14 pm

Maybe no english speaker has ever asked us?
And you are bad infomed we went to the cave to see tha altar not to find darlok.When you want something to know you must ask and not go witout saying somethin g and later you shouting that nobody speaked english.

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 2:21 pm

I don't care why you went to the cave, you obviously went for some important reason, and I asked someone just as they eft, and they ignored me and ran off, I assumed that this was going to be German only, as thats how the meeting had turned out, so I thought, forget it, it's German only, why should I go, you all left, and no one said what was going on, you all went, I did ask someone but I got no reply, then I logged out, got back in and everyone was back in town, I asked what had hapened, and I was ignored again, and then managed to that Darlok, had been in the cave, and had summond rotworms, then after the croud had dispersed, no one bothed to tell the English speakers who were asking what was happeneing anything!

Cuderon · Post by **Cuderon** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 2:23 pm

Now it´s getting really off-topic. Remember, the title of the thread was "Stop complaining"

Maybe we all should start learning Esperanto?

Caranthir the great · Post by **Caranthir the great** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 2:51 pm

And then there are those of us who don't speak either english OR german natively, so the rest of you stop whining. At least you are able to express yourself on your native language most/some of the time. I have never had the chance.

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 7:37 pm

Keikan Hiru wrote:Bloodhearte, I am impressed. I am deeply impressed how wrong your view of GMs is.

GMs are not Part of the Roleplay, at least thats how it should be.
GMs intercepting with thier GM Chars in Roleplay of "normal Players" make a huge mistake.
(My Opinion)

I dont even understand how you can say there is no Roleplaying going on.
You are in the middle of a huge Quest! But most player seem to be too blind to even notice it !
Or they are too lazy to join, but than dont complain.

How many 'Powergamers' have I deleted the last days? None.
I told them to stop, and they did it.
How many Changes did we to reduce 'Powergaming'? None.
All changes where planed long ago and support the Gameenviroment.
(Or have you seen a Smith crafting his Tools in bare Hands?)

I believe GMs SHOULD be involved in roleplaying, as well as enforcing OOC rules. Like Serpardum, he was always involved in roleplaying, and came up with excellent events and quests.

I'm not "blind" to this so called quest that's going on. I've looked, got zero information about it, and as far as I'm concerned, the only thing I have taken notice of was a huge and annoying drought. Rotworms? Darlok? Castle? What the heck is going on here? When I normally view meetings/posts that are exclusively German, I tend to give up because there is no good translator that I have. My only option now is to ask Darlok what is happening, considering he's both German and English speaking. Anyway, the last "quest" was an event, not a quest. In a quest, a player usually has something to do; solve a puzzle, kill a monster, or something along those lines. The only thing that happened was the monster disappearence for many weeks, and we waited until the ogre cave was constructed by the mods. When somebody stumbled upon it, the "quest" was over. Nobody really did anything...so please don't call me lazy, I'm more than happy to join in quests, but again, I have absolutely no information on this event except the weather.

Changes to reduce powergaming.....none? You sure? Who the heck said I had a problem with smithing on an anvil? That's fine! But ridiculous things like forcing interaction on non interacting characters and "dropping" tools that are rarely dropped seem to be an attempt to reduce powergaming. The stamina thing was fine, but it's sort of odd how I have to fill my belly everytime I dig for 6 to 7 ore, or less. Anyway, some changes are great, some aren't so great. I'm just pointing out the ones that I have an opinion on.

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 8:03 pm

Bloodhearte,

IF a GM wants to Roleplay, we have our own Characters. We have plenty of NPC we can take advantage of to involve and develope a greater experience for all.
But "Town Attacks" are not reall such a great Thing, when they happen regulary and without fitting background.

GM-Characters are almost Superbeeings if you would roleplay them, you will experience heavy Problems.

Serpardum once said something like "I stopped playing Serpardum because he is a GM Char and destroyes Roleplay of others with OOC Actions."
I second his opinion.

Our GM Chars can litereally everthing thats imaginable in Illarion. Where are his longings and desires if your play him, he already got everything possible.

You simply cannot play a GM Char with a clear Roleplay outline.

As a matter of fact, it should be forbidden.
Roleplaying means making friends and enemys alike, but a GM has to stay neutral in every situation.
Beeing involved in any roleplay currupts this Idea at the beginning.

Do you really think it is easy for me to stand arround in a GM Char and watch and ignore your actions while you have fun playing? It is not.
Why I do such "senseless hanging arround" ?
Because from time to time a Player needs the advice or help of a GM and than is better when someone is arround, isnt it?

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 8:10 pm

I always thought GMs only helped to things that were usually OOC, and wouldn't normally claim involvement in roleplaying events...I mean, you could make friends and enemies alike in character, but when an OOC transgression arises, you can simply act neutral to the situation and decide who is or is not guilty.

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 8:15 pm

The Person behind a GM is not shielded against emotions, and thats good.

Beeing part of the everyday events of Characters would reduce the emotional distance (i personaly need for some decision) beetween me and the other Player.

Also if i had "enemies", what would stop me to use/abuse my "GM Powers" and make thier digital life as horrible as possible?
Other way arround, what prevents me from supporting my "friends" with impressive unique artifacts and vaulable hints about other Player/Characters?

GMs should stay neutral and passive as long they can. I really belive thats the best way to handle such responsibility

Tamurom · Post by **Tamurom** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:17 pm

Not every big quest might be done in english in every condition and so the organizers shouldn't be blamed for that, but then also don't blame english players for saying that there are no quests going on, because that is basically what it is for them.

Just because you have "superpowers", it doesn't mean you have to use them to their full extent. Good roleplayers can control the use of what is a their disposal to maximize the roleplay enjoyment with their interactions, and GM players are supposed to be good roleplayers, or at least I assume.
But if they don't know how to use their powers effectively, then I don't think they should use them either then.

Arkadia Misella · Post by **Arkadia Misella** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 11:13 pm

What is wrong with a GM having 2 chars? One superbeing char to handle OOC problems and one normal one? A good roleplayer should be able to handle that and keep the two seperate. If I can ever get my second character (and i need to get that done) she will in no way act or resemble Ark at all and no one will probably be able to know it is me behind her (except for those mighty and wise GM's of course

) Roleplay is the key. Ark is a but weiner without a bow and still has problems getting those spells sometimes, but still can be a nasty little intimidating snot sometimes all do to decent RP. Granted some cstuff isnt so hot and great sometimes (we all have a our bad days) but is very decent. I think GM's should have regular normal characters, that others dont know about for it also would help keep some illegal junk out of the game for others wouldnt know they are a GM (such as spawnkilling, foul language, etc.) Even sometimes I have to tell people to behave OOC, and that ya know they have to be doing bad things since I get in a little trouble myself sometimes

(sorry again GM's) okay, I am done rambling

Konstantin K · Post by **Konstantin K** » Sat Jul 26, 2003 2:11 am

Just have two comments to support Fortinbris.

1. A powerful GM character could appear in a form of a wizard in front of a couple of players, and throw them a quest or two for fun. If you're a supernatural being, play a supernatural being. Throw a tricky piece of some information, give them a puzzle to solve. You don't have to play an ordinary person.

2. Mortars should not break, that's the only thing I have to say. They are the only things that shouldn't break. Druids know what they're doing.
Mages don't break anything when they cast.
Hammers break because you hit with them. Axes break because you chop with them. Sickles wear off because their blades lose sharpness. Shovels break because they touch the solid rocks. Blow pipes break because of high temperatures. Saws break because their teeth bend.
But mortars... all you do is put herbs in them and stir them with a spoon.
Make mortars pricey, but unbreakable.
Needles are a second issue, but neddles and mortars seems to be two things that break only because of characters' clumsiness, and we can't assume that.
The rest are ok to break, but mortars (and probably needles) shouldn't.

Not a complaint. Opinion.

With respect to all.

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Sat Jul 26, 2003 2:28 am

Ark, you have to tell somebody to behave OOC somtimes? That's just a wee bit tough to believe

.

Seriously though...

I think Keiken is saying that, even if he had different characters and such, forming enemies and friends would sway the person behind the computer and give him a sort of bias when it comes to handling transgressors. Even so, it isn't hard to approach a situation with an open mind and/or eye.

Vindigan · Post by **Vindigan** » Sat Jul 26, 2003 2:44 am

Konstantin K wrote:Make mortars pricey, but unbreakable.

Thats a player problem. I think all these tools breaking are a good thing because you can say "make it more expensive" all you want, but there will always be someone behind you selling a mortar for a little cheaper than you or even giving them away. If they break then you have to keep buying them.

I think they should break as well. I dont know what the exact message is when they break, somthing about dropping it isnt it? well maybe it should crack or somthing because when you use a mortar, you use a pestle (spelling?) to grind the indredients together so eventualy it will break.