Is this 'Pking'

Mashan Da'hok · Post by **Mashan Da'hok** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 4:22 am

I simply have a question.
In the following scenario, would player B be PKing player A?

Player A walks up to Player B and asks his name. Player B rudely refuses to tell Player A his name. Player A walks away while insulting Player B, and Player B casts a magical fire on Player A as Player A leaves.

Later Player A returns and boasts, before walking up to Player B and kicking him in the groin. Player B attacks Player A with ice bolts, killing Player A.

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 4:31 am

Of course it isn't. A reason is a reason, and there are no rules saying you have to have somebody murder another before you can attack. If somebody does so much as steal meat, you have the right to kill them; these times are, after all, simulated in the Middle Ages. You shouldn't have to give out absurd amounts of warning to do it either.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 4:54 am

Exactly which part of the altercation is being questioned?
If it's the very last part, it's obviously logical that a person retaliates against another person who kicked him in the groin, no matter what happened before leading up to it.

The rest of the incident was logical too.

I don't see what's to be confused about here. Roleplay simply requires some common sense, not a bunch of rules to spell it all out.

Mandil Aglandol · Post by **Mandil Aglandol** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 7:53 pm

i would agree with dyluck and bloodhearte, that is a perfectly good reason to kill somone, if your char is the kind who retaliates to that sort of thing, also, you may end up in jail for killing somone, but it is all within the game, no rules ooc are broken by killing that person, but, personaly i wouldnt try to kill him because i would be scarde of The Lyrenzia foundation hehehe

Mashan Da'hok · Post by **Mashan Da'hok** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 11:58 pm

Well that's unusual! When I was in place of player B, Keiken Hiru warned me not to PK.

Xerake · Post by **Xerake** » Wed Jul 09, 2003 1:22 am

Hm...is Keiken Hiru a human with a 30*** number? If so, he was the same GM that warned my character for insulting somebody In-Character, and refused to tell me why I was warned when both Reda and I asked?

The player of Xerake raises a dumbfounded brow...

Zerbus · Post by **Zerbus** » Wed Jul 09, 2003 1:33 am

aren't we all humans?

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Wed Jul 09, 2003 4:23 am

I remember that Xerake! You called me something or other, can't remember at the moment.

You know, kicking in the groins alone required an attack, but if you were kicked in the groins with a steel boot, I'm not sure how good roleplay it is to be able to kill someone.

Maktan Hardtooth. · Post by **Maktan Hardtooth.** » Wed Jul 09, 2003 7:17 am

@Paul Unless theres nothing there

He said to B. who is B a she or he

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:11 pm

Maybe some of you aren't telling the entire or accurate details of your described incidents.

Or maybe some other people let authority go to their head and jump to conclusions without realizing they have a poor grasp of the situation at hand, and then refuse to admit or explain when they make mistakes.

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Wed Jul 09, 2003 3:52 pm

Well, i am some days away and suddenly there is a discussion about my decissions.

What i saw:

Player A used a '#me Command' to attack Mashan.

Mashans reaktion:
- Paralyze Spell
- Ice Bolt
- Ice Bolt
- Ice Bolt
(Player A truned into Cloud)
- Ice Bolt
- Ice Bolt
- Ice Bolt
- Ice Bolt

I did not hear a Word of Reaction from Mashan, not even "ouch".
The *best* way in this Situation would be a '#me Command' to punch or kick back.
So from my point of view you just PKed, and you had fun with it, considerng how often you clicked through your runes.

To Xerake:

This "insult" was way under the belt-line. I dont want to hear such language in game. Never forget there are Children playing too.

Ishans Schatten · Post by **Ishans Schatten** » Wed Jul 09, 2003 4:20 pm

Sorry Keikan,

but in the time you emote something is the other guy allready away.

If i play some bad guy and someone touch me like Xerake i would kill him.
Xerake hast start this situation so is this simply a reaction on his.
If you try such something like Xerake you have to pay the price.
Mashan has only played his char and he has a good reason to kill the other guy so it cant be PK. PK is killing without a reason and not killing without emote.

Player Of Ishan

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Wed Jul 09, 2003 4:43 pm

First of all, i do not discuss my decisions in the public.
I warned Mashan, he should take it a mature way to improve his roleplaying and dont act like a kid.

Dont forget: I warned him, I did not jailed him, i did not ban him.
I just said: "I dont want to see such thing again from you."

To Ishan:

I have no dealings with Xerake, so i dont know what you are talking about.
I just said to him: "Watch your words."

To "PK":
Pk is not just to kill someone without reason, its a killing out of the roleplay.
And i did not see any roleplying form Mashans side, just some plain mouseclicks.

This is my last word in this matter.

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Wed Jul 09, 2003 9:48 pm

Dyluck wrote: Or maybe some other people let authority go to their head and jump to conclusions without realizing they have a poor grasp of the situation at hand, and then refuse to admit or explain when they make mistakes.

I have seen this happen before.

I believe that it is a very tenuous thing to warn him about, but you are right sort of, if Mashan (whoever he is) did not roleplay being kicked.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 12:05 am

When you kick the groin of a mage, do you think they fight back with magic? Or with punches and kicks?

What do you know about the personality of the character Mashan Da'hok?

What's to say his rage doesn't take over his other feelings?
What's to say the character will show weakness in public?
What's to say he hasn't enough strength to form spells with his lips?
What's to say he isn't wearing some equipment which protected his groin?

If a character is not strong enough to beat another, then they should just go kicking people in the groin and don't expect severe consequences? What do you think happens when people think they can use #me commands to attack people without being afraid of the consequence of death? Or have you already forgotten the recent discussion about not enough consequnces to be afraid of death?

Oh wow, now the lowliest peasants can kick the groin of the greatest knights and mages of the land without fear, and they must groan and fall to their knees before you to roleplay their defeat at your mighty kick.

If this is how it goes, then I hope to see everyone co-operate next time I say something like "#me bites you and turns you into a vampire under my control" or "#me turns you into a pig"

Bullshit.

To say Mashan didn't roleplay his injuries well enough can be a debatable subject.
To say that zapping someone who kicked you in the groin is not a logical roleplay reaction is just an excuse for the disregard for the personality of the character and situational factors.

Maktan Hardtooth. · Post by **Maktan Hardtooth.** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 12:14 am

Go Dyluck! So what if the accused have a bad temper? Want me kick you in the groin? or would you like that? I would kick the freaking @#$% out of whoever kick me in the groin, It is sick and punishable by whatever action i chose. This is Illarion! This is freedom to show your emotions, to show your anger, who goes around kicking people in the groin anyways? Hush? answer that oh almighty GM.

Darlok · Post by **Darlok** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 12:22 am

You like to discuss, dont you Dyluck?

But i fail to see any valid argument.

My Character (sadly) tends to kill everything thats walking and weaker than him.
But I show at least some action and reaction.

As far as I understand this Matter, Mashan Da'hok just said nothing, he didnt even react on the Kick/Punch.
He pressed Alt and clicked severel times the Rune for Ice Bolt.

Okay, you can try to generalize this Dyluck, to make it apear wrong, but this is not the matter.

I belive the point is not, that Mashan killed the other, the point is how he did this.

Another Question, I just saw Marktan "I post everywhere" Hartthoots, posting:
You like to pick on GMs?
If you carry on, I can imagine that even GMs quit. Is it that what you want?
Be happy that there are sone new people who took the stress upon thier shoulders!

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 12:44 am

Yes, I do. It's my job as a player after all.
And you have a large wardrobe, don't you?

Darlok wrote: As far as I understand this Matter, Mashan Da'hok just said nothing, he didnt even react on the Kick/Punch.
He pressed Alt and clicked severel times the Rune for Ice Bolt.

These statements contradict themeselves. You say there is no reaction but the reaction is clearly the retaliation through the casting of spells.
You only assume there is a reaction of pain necessary in this sequence, but this is only your assumption.

The reaction of retaliation with spells isn't any less of a roleplay reaction than the use of a #me command in this situation.

According to your logic, when somebody attacks Darlok by ctrl+click, then I assume you will show a #me reaction for every blow that is landed or the movement of your shield or block them before you get angry and ctrl+click them back?
I guess you will type a #me command to show your displeasure and surprise before giving chase when a halfling steals your cabbage and runs away?

Swords and halflings are pretty fast. I wonder how fast you can type?

Darlok · Post by **Darlok** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 12:54 am

Just forget it Dyluck, you have to much sparetime in your Hands.
My "job" as player is having fun ín the game, not to critizise everything that crosses my eyes.

And in fact, if i have a chance to use a #me, i use it. I just take the time to do it.
Maybe i have just a cool head and dont "freak out" if i hear the attack sound.
If my Char gets hitten, out of the nowhere, i step back, use a #me to prepare for a fight and than i strike back.

By the way, if someone kicks me there, i feel pain. So i think a "ouch" would be the least i can expect from somebody.
(Only when i actually hit my opponent, he can always dodge!)

So keep your heads cool and THINK before killing some other player.

I think i have said enouth here.
Go on Dyluck and tell everybody how wrong he/she it, show us the light of your wisdom ... i am fed up.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 1:23 am

Oh yes, I'm sure Mashan Da'hok had lots of fun when he was told that getting swift revenge on somebody who attacked him wasn't good enough roleplay.

My job as a player in this game includes testing it and discussing what is wrong with it and how it's run for the better benefit of roleplay, not succumb to the arrogant opinions of a few.

I guess I must have missed a lot of these #me commands between the many blows druing Darlok's war with the halflings.
I guess it's not so easy to keep a cool head in the heat of battle?

Somehow I doubt my kick will affect your big black suit of armor.

Now who's to say what protected Mashan, or whether the kick even landed on him?
Are you a pig just because I say "#me turns you into a pig?

What else requires a #me action to avoid a warning from a GM for lack of roleplay? Opening a depot without using a #me command? Mining without a #me command?

Cuderon · Post by **Cuderon** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 1:34 am

I think both sides have their point. Maktan had the chance to react -remember, the other engaged with a #me command- with a roleplay action that could lead in a real fight. It would have been nice if he wrote something like "#me cries out in anger and blue energy floats arround his hands". But he just attacked, what seems to be ok in my eyes, but is not "the fine art" of roleplay.

But if I was attacked with physical/magical power instead of RP first, I wouldn´t step back and type a long sentence. My char would flee or strike back quickly to stand a chance at all, depending on the strenght of the stroke.

So why are you arguing? Maktan didn´t get banned, he wasn´t thrown in the dungeon but he simply got a warning.

EDIT: Sorry, it´s Mashan, not Maktan...

Mashan Da'hok · Post by **Mashan Da'hok** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:56 am

Yes, I agree that I could have role-played the situation better, but I didn't feel like letting him run off.

The *best* way in this Situation would be a '#me Command' to punch or kick back.

That's half true, but sometimes we don't make the *best* choices. Of course it doesn't justify accusing me of PKing.

and you had fun with it, considering how often you clicked through your runes.

I was not aware that the amount of times you cast a spell dictates if it had anything to do with Pking.

First of all, I do not discuss my decisions in the public.
I warned Mashan, he should take it a mature way to improve his role-playing and don't act like a kid.

I don't know, but refusing to communicate, or admit you may have made a mistake sounds a bit more childish to me.

Pk is not just to kill someone without reason, its a killing out of the role-play.

I killed him for kicking me in the groin, I don't see how that is 'out of the role-play'. I didn't kill him for any reason that had nothing to do with the game. I think you should interchange 'PK' with 'mediocre role-playing'.

Nartak Ironmaster · Post by **Nartak Ironmaster** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 8:46 am

www.illarion.org wrote:Large and slender. Noble features and a superior behavior are signs of an elf. They have almond coloured eyes and sharp ears. They are masters of archery, very educated and have great knowledge of magic. They adore all life and kill only in an urgency. They can see in the dark.

Ishans Schatten · Post by **Ishans Schatten** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:58 am

Nartak you know nothing about Mashan, he is a Pyromaner and Ex Evil Mage. A Groub about evil guye ledad long time by Lord Dark Sunrise.
He is one of the few real bad guys in illarion.

And again i say in the mean time he would emote something the halfling will run away. There was a discusion over one year about about emotes and fights. Dont forget not everybody can write so fast.

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 11:22 am

I don't know, but refusing to communicate, or admit you may have made a mistake sounds a bit more childish to me.

I stood there for more than a half hour talking to you, explaining why I just warned you.
That you should take it as critisim, not as threat to ban you next time.

But of crouse, i am a GM, so it doesnt matter what i do or when i do it.
It is wrong.

I did not make a mistake, i judged about the things i saw. And the things and the actions i saw forced me to speak a warning towards Mashan Da'hoks Player.
Of course now a Player comes to me:
"You are a corrupted, powerabsuing,ban-lowing, low-life Creature."
Nothing else is this whole Topic about.
A crying and moaning that there is someone who doesnt "like you".
(Something that is not true.)

But than again ... i am a GM .... i am unfair (in the eyes of a Player.)

The fact that i also spoke to the "Player A", because of his provoking behavior doesnt matter a bit to anybody of you.
I am a GM, i only do things to make 'good Players' angry.

You say i dont know Mashan Da'hoks Character, but you are wrong, even if you dont want to belive that.
But from someone beeing arround in this game i can expect a bit more, than killing newbies who are getting on his nerv in such a low way.
But after all, i am a GM, i live in a world far away from those the players now.

Why i dont discuss my decissions in public?
Thats a matter beetween me and the player, he can/could contact me if he thinks i was unjust to him.
But Mashan refused, so i also took my right to not answer him.

Mashan has partly right, the best way would not be to punch back via a #me, the best way would be simply dodge the kick via a #me.
And again, for all those who dont want to understand.
I dont warned Mashan because he killed someother Characer (yes he deserved to die), i warned him because of the way he killed him.

And please ... i know i am GM, and you showed me enouth that i do everything wrong i try.
I have enouth for today, dont bug me anymore.

Draakon · Post by **Draakon** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 4:40 pm

"rules of conduct

Illarion is played by many people from all around the world. Therefore a set of basic rules are necessary to ensure that everyone get the most out of it. The server is privately owned by us, so we reserve the right to ban people. If we have dismissed a claim that a penalty or ban was too rough, there is no need of continuously notifying us of your opinion. Our decision is final, and bugging us about it can only get you into trouble."

GMs are basically the staff of the owners of this game...players have no say in anything unless the owners or staff decide to listen.

"Punishment and penalties

Warning: Talk with the game master to clear up what you did wrong...."

The thing to do would be to whisper it ingame or to use the PM feature, perhaps it should say that as hanging it out in public is obviously only an attempt to slander the GM who was doing his job and that alone I think would justify a ban, not that they actually need to justify anything they do, remember that well. We are freeloaders and use their personal creation for our entertainment.

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:07 pm

Mashan, if you had just been kicked in the Groin, depending on how hard the kick was, or if your a female char, you would not by casting spells, because you would be to busy on the ground in pain to think about revenge at that point.