The Magic System

[Elaralith]

Greetings,
I would like to propose some suggestions concerning the magic system...it seems the fighting system will be undergoing some changes, and I think the magic system should as well as it has many problems too.
First of all, consider what goes into the casting of magic in illarion...a wizard gives up a portion of his metaphysical energy or "mana" in order to create an effect. Right now, magical attacks are significantly weaker than physical ones...this should be the other way around. Let me give an example: A master fighter can utterly destroy a cluster of flies in 2-3 hits. On the other hand, a master mage requires up to 4-8 hits from one of his most powerful spells to kill the same creatures. As well remember that a fighter loses nothing by attacking, while a mage can only cast so many spells at one time as with every attack he loses a portion of his vital energy.

I propose that magical attacks be made significantly stronger or fighting attacks made significantly weaker. If possible I suggest that different magics have different damage quotients against different creatures. So lightning should hurt flying creatures like flies more than an ice bolt would as an ice bolt would just fly right through the swarm. In the making of magical attacks stronger magic could be made harder to learn though right now it is already quite difficult to master some spells. These are my thoughts, please consider them. Any other added proposals concerning the magic system are welcome here. Thank you.

-Elaralith

[Caranthir the great]

You make it sound like mages would have to give up something valuable and never gain it back, which is not the case here. They drink a bottle of mana, and are back in fight. Furthermore while fighter places himself directly in danger, mage has the chance of bashing his/her opponents from distance and has far better chance of escaping the monsters.

I don't really know what to say, perhaps you've tried to shoot flies with icebolts? Well, they should be hard to hit, concidering that bolt of ice is rather solid projectile, when on the other hand, perhaps area-of-effect spell such as fireballs or greater fireballs are better against them? There I agree with you, also fire-based spells should work better on 'dry' creatures such as mummies, but this should be individually thought and concidered with each monster.
Shooting flies with icebolt is something like shooting them with arrows, you can't really expect too much success no matter how magical it is.

I would be somewhat less reluctant with these changes if the books would be rare unlike now, if the strongest spells would only be recieved from quests or similiar occassions and by this way drastically removing the Iceblots, Greater fireballs, paralyzes and so for from the hands of every wannabe sundaymage.

Also I believe that I've said this before, mages are playing with powers FAR from their control (Be that Human, elf, anybody else) so there should be a 'Backfire' effect on the spells.
This backfire would appear mainly when you are a novice with the spell, causing the spell effect to be directed at you (perhaps also making the mage to be unable to cast for a moment) Also this would propably help the powergaming sitiuation, and help to implement the racial talents, Elf's spell backfiring far less often than Dwarf's spell.

Furthermore, a sitiuation where mage requires only one spell to kill a fighter should be avoided, it would create WAY too unbalanced system.

My opinion is, that if there would be any drastic increase to spell strenght, we would have to get rid of 3/4 of all mages, otherwise no-mages stand no chance. There are too many mages anyways, becoming one is too easy. I am not going to argue about werther the skillgaining for mage is easy, but becoming one is too damn easy. Period. End of discussion.
Being a Grand mage should require REAL devotion, and they should be really, really rare.

[Freo]

perhaps there should be a faster way to do spells? I mean you can chant faster than you can swing cant you? I guess it depends on the person.

[Crocket]

I agree with Elaralith. Spells should do considerably more damage than a blow from a sword IF the spellcaster has a high skill in that type of spell.

A mage with a lot of skill at spellcasting should be a lot more powerful than a fighter with a lot of skill at combat. But the mage is limited by mana. This is what balances the power.

@Caranthir the great
The flies wouldn't be that hard to target with an ice bolt. The ice bolt is not small like a limb of a tree. Look at it like a huge stalagmite flying through the air, or a cloud of ice that turns to a bolt when a target gets within the cloud. But it would still be harder to target than using a fire for instance. Using a fire spell on flies should kill them instantly.

[Grant Herion]

Yes, but I am a mage myself and it sooo easy to be 1 and win in a fight against a warrior.
A mage can cast a few paralize spells then ice bolts and fire explosions with the qwan. Both of these spells are very strong and you can use them from far away and armor will not protect you from magic like it can from arrows.
As you can see mages have it far to easy! I think magic should be much harder and have spells like ra kel qwan take up more mana so a mage can;t cast it 3 times before drinking a potion.

[Drey Jol]

So lightning should hurt flying creatures like flies more than an ice bolt would as an ice bolt would just fly right through the swarm.

Wouldn't the lightning bolt go right through the flies, too?

[Crocket]

Wouldn't the lightning bolt go right through the flies, too?

Not really. The energy would arc through the air hitting any targets nearby.

[Draakon]

Magic is already alot faster to cast than a fighters attack, add the paralyze and field spells such as iceflame their advantage is really great. Dunno much about magic really but the icebolt seems to be one of the really powerful spells and I see people casting this and basically never failing.

As for mana it is the wizards mind being drained from casting, obviously magic is powerful and so it is an effort to use it. A warrior can swing a sword easily enough but from him usually it is his life that gets drained from being hurt. I would say that makes it pretty even...

Now if magic can instantly kill with say an icebolt from a strong mage it would hardly be even, to even it out then paralyze wich is in many ways an overpowerd spell should be removed, and flame spells weakened to the brink of uselessness. (Paralyzing and throwing something or someone in a flame seems a favourite tactic)
Also mages cannot do melee combat and to even out their really strong magic should not be allowed to use shields of any kind and only wear robes, some mage robes wizard hat and so could help increase magic dammage lower mana loss make spells easier to cast or something.

Only making spells stronger would make everything too uneven as it is mages already have alot of advantages that fighters do not.

[Hagen von Rabenfeld]

A few comments.

1) I dont think magic weak at all, especially the paralyze spell is MUCH to good. If it would only decrease the combat skills because you get slower i wouldnt say a word, but paralyzing someone, casting a standing flame on him, paralyzing him again and start to let ice bolts rain on him, well...it doesnt sound fair to me, as there is no chance to do something against it.

2) I cant see a difference between staying away from the enemy and drinking mana potions in order to keep on casting, or getting in close combat and drink healing potions because you get damadge in return. And if you run out of potions a mage has a better chance to flee as a close combat fighter. Ever tried to get away from melee? I almost never succeed.

3) Well but when the fighter gets close to the mage, the game is over i hear you say. Doubtful as long as the Paralyze spell doesnt get changed or the "battlemages" clad in armour and wielding two shields, dont get any drawbacks for casting. A close combat fighter with two shields has no chance to make any considerable damadge, but for a mage it is no problem.

4) The only chance for a close combat fighter against a good mage is to train his magic resistance by letting his friends cast on him((if that works, i have no idea if it is like that) which i consider a very low kind of PG. He can only hope that the mage doesnt succeed in his casting and as already mentioned, you can see mages casting the most difficult spells without any problems.

I really dont get it you want to kill with ONE spell? As most experienced mages almost never fail to cast a single one could kill a whole group of fighters, before any of them has a chance to get in close range and fight back. Yes REALLY good mages could do that in "reality" but as long as you need no quest to get the best spells in the game, im sure soon every sunday mage will train on these spells untill he doesnt fail at all.

@Crocket why the heck SHOULD spells do more damadge than a swordblow? As you get no drawbacks, if you train in magic AND parry, how should be such a "battlemage"((i wonder if there are any other types of spellcasters in the game)) be defeated?

@Caranthir I like the idea of a "Backfire" the chances that something like this happens should increase with the complexety of a spell. It would give the experienced mages a reason not to rely on the best spell only. They should be a risk to use although their effect would justify it when the situation starts to get desperate.

[Gerard Hugh]

ok, I didnt want to read that last post because it was long and I was lazy, but I also agree that Paralize should be taken away, It is too powerful. Or at least make it to where you cant lock onto people with wond while you use it. Or make it to where you have to be a master at it to use it good. My character is a mage and has hardly any skill at paralize and can hit it pretty often. All I have to do is use half of my manna on it and then the rest on ra kel qwan and it would be a piece of cake for me.(( not that I do that or anything )) Anyway, I also like the idea about the mage robes and wizard hats, although it is not necessary, it would be nice.

[Elaralith]

@All The problem right now is that NO MAGE can fight anything and survive without being a master of the paralyze spell....this is due to the fact that spells are generally quite weak. Think about it. Should an explosion of fire (equivalent to a modern day bomb) do more harm or a hit from a sword? Right now a hit from a sword does more damage relatively. An increase in the power of the spells is quite logical if you consider what each spell actually is relatively. Another example, a bolt of lightning that is a beam of searing hot energy (lightning is hotter than the sun) that incinerates full grown trees into char in nature...a mage does that should it do more damage or should a swipe from common sword? A sword does more right now. Consider.

@Caranthir If roleplayed well a mage shouldn't be drinking mana potions every second...that is powergaming. I agree with your proposal about spells backfiring though...in the event of spells being made more powerful as they should be a backfire would be very appropriate. Concerning the backfire as right now a small puff of blue smoke appears whenever a magic fails perhaps a paralyze spell like spell could be casted on the mage whenever a spell fails so that the mage is temporarily disabled...

[Darlok]

Sorry to say so Elaralith, but you are wrong in all points.

1. Spells are much too powerfull right now. Thats a fact.

You have all possibilites to defend agains physical attacks.
You can parry them, and so prevent to get damage.
You can wear armor to dampen the effect of attacks.

Spells hit always and always with thier full power.
You can only dampen thier effect with Magic Resistace, but thats a Skill and not easy to get.

2. Potions just work "wrong" currently.
As far as i know thier effects should not take place imidiatly, but over a shorter period of time than normal regeneration.

So you can expect this to change in the (distant) future.


Also please consider the "Hit and Run"-Tactic for a Mage in a battle.

[Elaralith]

@Darlok You may think I am wrong, but that is just your opinion.

First of all spells are not powerful at all. In comparison to what weapons can do they are pathetic. Why? Read above.
As well spells DO NOT work all the time. So the way they hit all the time means nothing as spells are not always successful even for a very good mage.
Magical attacks:
You can make them miss by pushing the mage.
They will NOT always hit you as they don't always work.
You can dampen their effects with magic resistance.

Physical attacks cost nothing. You can keep using them infinitely. They do more damage than spells and you can kill faster with them.

Just look at the example of a mage killing the same monster as a fighter.

The hit and run tactic does not work in illarion too well because of how you need to stop to cast a spell and everytime you stop the distance between you and your enemy decreases resulting in your death in the end. This goes back to mage full reliance of the paralyze spell at this time. Without extremely good skill in the paralyze spell a mage cannot hope to defeat anything!

Finally consider what spells actually are. If you think about it it just doesn't make sense that such things as whirling water tornados (equivalent to hurricanes) do less damage than a slash from a dagger.

I'm sorry but, IMO, you are wrong in quite a few important points Darlok as it seems you are seeing things too much from a figher's point of view.

[Drey Jol]

Wearing armour doesn't stop magical attacks?

[Maktan Hardtooth.]

No it does not

[Caranthir the great]

IMO, you are wrong in quite a few important points Darlok as it seems you are seeing things too much from a figher's point of view.

I found this ironic. Aren't you seeing things too much from mage's point of view?

You can make them miss by pushing the mage.

If mages comes close enough to the fighter for him to bash him in melee combat, the mage deserves death, he should die. No way out of that. I think that if mage starts to get himself kicked, he should become unable to cast spells - if someone strikes a dagger in your gut, IMO its impossible to keep yourself concentrated enough to do anything even slightly resembling magic.

As well spells DO NOT work all the time. So the way they hit all the time means nothing as spells are not always successful even for a very good mage.

I've never noticed anything like this with any mage, mine or other. On the contrary actually people seem to NEVER fail their spells, ever.
From casted spells 1/20 is fail, and that is dumb. Period.

Physical attacks cost nothing. You can keep using them infinitely. They do more damage than spells and you can kill faster with them.

Isn't there a stamina planned? When this feature is implemented, it will propably effect fighters A LOT more than mages, thereby taking this away. Then on the other hand, people in the middleages did have fights where they fought hours and hours without pause. It's not physically impossible to beat objects with a sword for four hours, its just damn hard - specially in platemail. But they did this.

Without extremely good skill in the paralyze spell a mage cannot hope to defeat anything!

Where does it say that mage should be able to stand head-to-head combat against demon/rotworm? I know that Caranthir propably can't, and he is a fighter - but then again it never was a goal for him to be the strongest, powerful and omnipotent and having a goal like that is stupid. It is not nessecity that you must be able to beat each and every monster in illarion, alone. No, thats stupid too. Isn't it the point of fighting strong monsters to gather a party to hunt them? Take a friend or two with you. They take the blows while you stay in cover and shoot spells.

whirling water tornados (equivalent to hurricanes)
Should an explosion of fire (equivalent to a modern day bomb)
a bolt of lightning that is a beam of searing hot energy (lightning is hotter than the sun)

Where did you read these awesome spell descriptions from? Oh, I see..
What kind of bomb? Napalm? Nuke? White phospor? You can't go around claiming something like this, sorry. What makes you think that fireball would be something else than 'ball of fire'. There is no such spell (To my knowledge) that would be called 'Firething equivalent to modern day bomb'. If you continue on this, I might start whining why my axe -Size of a truck and destructionpower of 25MT- does less damage than a lightning directed at me, so please..

[Crocket]

There should be magical armor to defend against spells.

And I also HATE the paralysis spell. Everyone should have a chance to avoid it and all spells. Such as saving throws in the D&D games. In D&D the spells were extremely powerful but you had a chance to only take half damage or avoid the damage all together by making a succesful saving throw.

I won't even bother responding to Caranthir's last post.

[Grant Herion]

Elararith, first of all, mages use wands so they never miss. You use two shields most of the time so why would you need to worry about physical attacks?
Secondly hept kel takes about a quarter of my life, ra kel qwan takes about a third and half when it erupts into a flame. You think those are weak? And you can master a rune so you never fail with it, talk to Crosis about that.
Physical attacks need to get close to you, right next to you if they are using a fire sword which is what they use most of the time. You can kill them before they get close enough to you.
Elararith, us mages have an incredible advantage over regular fighters. We just need to raise our parry and learn some powerful spells along with the paralisis spell and we could destroy the most powerful warriors this island has to offer. Wether you see this or not doesn't matter, personally I think you do realize how powerful magic is and you just want to be stronger for some reason. Magic will never be stronger then it is as Darlok as said, if it was then no one would be a fighter and everyone would be a mage and that would horribly boring.

Grant

p.s. My character has as much health as you can get.

[Vindigan]

How about change the paralise spell. Instead of making it stop you, and not being able to do anything, just make it like you are encumbered. Like if youve ever tried to carry 20 logs of wood and you walk really slow. Or another idea i thought about, make it like sub zero's freeze skill (if you've ever played mortal kombat) where as if you try to paralise an already paralised person, the spell backfires onto you.

I think magic is too weak on monsters, but too strong on other players. It takes 4 - 5 ice bolts to kill some flys, the weakest monster on the game, and it takes same ammount to kill a player.

[Elaralith]

@Caranthir I won't even bother... I can only advise you to think about what a fireball actually IS what a lightning bolt IS.

@Grant

You use two shields most of the time so why would you need to worry about physical attacks?

What do you mean I use two shields all the time? I don't even own shields and why would I "use" two shields at the computer? I don't know what you are talking about. If you are meaning my character in illarion well she as most people know is dressed in robes and carries a staff.

Secondly hept kel takes about a quarter of my life, ra kel qwan takes about a third and half when it erupts into a flame.

What is this about spells taking this and that off your character's health bar? What is being discussed is the efficiency of figher versus that of a mage which is unbalanced right now. Please read more carefully in the future before you try to start an argument next time.

We just need to raise our parry

What are you talking about? Mages just need to raise their PARRY?!? Let me tell you a mage is NOT a fighter. And parry is something that belongs to a fighter. A well role-played mage should not be awesome in figher skills!
Hint: Parry is under the category of Fighting Skills! If you are powergaming in your Grant character to get high fighting skills I suggest you stop!

personally I think you do realize how powerful magic is and you just want to be stronger for some reason

I play illarion to ROLEPLAY ... I have never cared about my character being the strongest! I'm warning you such off-topic assumptions DO NOT belong in a thread in the Proposal Board.

p.s. My character has as much health as you can get.

Read above.

@Vindigan That is quite true. Magic is too strong on players and too weak on monsters...another balance issue. That goes back to spell effects. (different elements affecting different things differently)

[Grant Herion]

Elararith, I see now how people get so angry at you. Ok, if you play Illarion to roleplay why do you care how powerful spells are. Secondly, You know nothing of how a mage is meant to roleplay because you have never met one you can do whatever you wish to your mage. Thirdly, you seem to have ignored my main point which was that an average mage can easily crush a powerful fighter. This closes your proposal, if magic is any stronger the game will be even more unbalanced.

[Aradhul Rythwier]

1).Grant I know you are long in Illarion. But do you have the athority to close an open topic in the Forums.

2).I havent yet played Illarion so i have no first hand experience but some of what Elaralith seems to make sense and some of it is already in other online RPG's.

3).For those who say Illarion isnt like other RPG's that is true but cant its programmers learn from some of the other RPG's out there(Just a suggestion)

4). Those who are just going to post saying dont post anything if you havent already played please do not post it just takes up space on the board. I already know i am a noobie to Illarion so you dont have to remind me.

5).I dont know if this is already implemented into Illarion so please correct me if i am wrong. But shouldnt there be a spell for like a magical shield. In astonia3 the mages use a spell that is a magical shield so it blocks attacks but every attack it blocks weakens the shield until it is gone. Then the mage is vunerable to attacks. If you dont like that idea why not put a time limit on the shield say it only last 10-30 sec depending on how strong of a mage you are(Just a suggestion)

[Bumbol Woodstock]

But then the mages will be even stronger. In those 10-30 second a mage can cast hept kel so many times any warrior would be dead.
Mages are far to strong and I suggest mana potions not bring so much mana back or spells use up more mana especcially the stronger spells.

[Aradhul Rythwier]

1).Thats a good idea so say the magical shield takes up alot of mana then the mages would have to use weaker spells or run away from whatever moster is attacking them

2). also if a strong warrior jumped out and suprised a mage couldnt the warrior kill the mage with a 1 or 2 hits if the mage didnt have time to react.

3). also doesnt it take time to say a spell if not it should so a warrior could get closer to the mage and kill the mage even before the spell is completed

[Bumbol Woodstock]

Well, most mages have high parry and carrying a wand around. So they can block most attacks.

[Aradhul Rythwier]

1).Well that is easy to fix just let the mages not have the ability to get that high of a parry that is not that hard of a thing to implement.

2). By the way which vocation is the best i would like to know and can a druid become a mage even if he selected druid as his vocation when he created his character(sorry for being off topic)

[Bumbol Woodstock]

No, you can only be a mage or a druid, you cannot be both, well, I have heard rumors that later on you will be able to be both...

And are you sure it wouldn't be hard to implement mages not be able to have high parry. Because you can be a mage and not be a full on mage. I mean you can have you intell at say 10 and cast some basic spells, and you would of course still want to be able to be a warrior with magic.
Point is, it wouldn't be as easy as you think.

[Aradhul Rythwier]

I am not very good at programming code as i have only just started learning and havent yet gotten to C++ which this game is written in but it would seem to me that all you would need is an if-then statement

ex if mage
then parry is <= 20(20 is just put there to show you)

ex2 if warrior
then parry is <=50(50 is just put there to show you

[Bumbol Woodstock]

Yes, but where do you someone to be a mage? When they can cast half the spells or all of the spells? a half mage can be a very powerful warrior at the same time.

[Aradhul Rythwier]

You mean like a warlok or something like that well that is simple


ex if warlock
then parry is <=35
if warlock
then spellcast is <=25
ex 2
if mage
then parry is <= 20
if mage
then spellcast is <= 50
ex 3
if druid
then parry is <= 35
if druid
then druidmagic is <= 50
ex 4
if ranger
then parry is <=40
if ranger
then druidmagic is <=35

same with warrior and cleric and all of this is quit simple in pascel language so i would asume it would be even easier in C++.

sorry for being off the main topic