Repairing Items should lower quality

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Post by Durwinatica » Sun May 29, 2016 6:01 am

Repairing Items should lower quality

Something of this nature was already discussed in this topic: http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 94&t=40680


However I'm just concerned with three parts, not everything in that topic, just to start things small. (although I agree with a lot that is in that topic) The three things I am concerned with:


- Items should not last forever just because you repair them. You can duct tape a spear up as many times as you want, but the wood splits from the inside and starts becoming more and more unfixable. Repairs should work... to a point. Repairing should decrease the quality of the item (ideally based on what durability it was at before repairing, and how many levels up the repair takes to get it to perfect, for how quality will decrease) and eventually the quality should diminish to the stage where the item is destroyed permanently. I've taken it upon myself, in absence of engine, to roleplay out my tools slowly breaking over repairs and needing new ones. Getting a set of perfect tools and never having to get new ones means there's very little demand for tools after a while, and so most people never buy more tools once they've gotten a perfect set they can indefinitely repair.

For example, The Saga of Ryzom is an MMO that is well known for its community and economy, working so well that most NPC merchants have the option to resale an item to a player 'auction' of sorts. All items, eventually, will break and you have to replace them from skilled player crafters... although Ryzom is slightly more harsh since there's no way to repair items at all.


- Repair prices, assuming this change ever happens, should be a little lower since items will eventually break. I feel the repair prices act as an economical sink to stop inflation, but I feel this could be better repurposed. I think this could be utilized more efficiently for the good of the game, by having the repair prices a little lower than the usual. Items would break sooner or later after repairs, so this 'gold sink' can still remain, but repairing may be a little less harsh on the wallet, perhaps 3/4 or even 5/8 of the price.

Further reading about economical sinks, or known as 'gold sinks', here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_sink

Also an interesting discussion about it on game development stack exchange: http://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questi ... al-economy



- Item durability, through usage, should decrease far slower. When items can be repaired indefinitely, it is understandable why durability decreases so fast. However, when repair will take down quality, this rate of durability decrease through usage is no longer a good choice of design. Durability would have to be much better handled... I'd say the rate it decreases based on the quality. Better quality items should take longer to deteriorate in durability, and through repairs as they become lower quality, they deteriorate even faster naturally. Players get their moneys worth for tools from crafters, and eventually will come back for more better tools from them without feeling like durability mechanics ripped them off.

A good example of why durability should be changed that I can think of from another game, is Minecraft. Imagine it like that, but all you had were wooden tools all the time. Minecraft's wooden tools break really fast, and that's what I feel like it ends up as with the current durability system.



These are my suggestions, which I feel would really help the game. Feel free to discuss!

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Post by Karrock » Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:11 am

Re: Repairing Items should lower quality

I when I'm playing as Titus always I'm buying new tools. Buying new tools is cheaper than using old and repairing them. Only three things can be changed. Introduce repair system for players and move repair npc more far from smitherys and delete payment from taking gems off from items (then I could buy new sword than always repair old).
I heard that they have to introduce repair system for players in future.
As you can notice we have gem system taking off gems from items to put them into new is expensive, but I can't imagine how to change it to save money sink.

Lowering quality of items by using them is rather weak idea in game like this. Notice that fixing items like tools is not worth to pay for it.

EDIT: Maybe clothes could vanish (because none is putting gems into them) to wake tailors up.

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Post by Q-wert » Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:20 am

Re: Repairing Items should lower quality

Just throwing in questions I find unadressed by the proposal:

-How to handle unique items* and items that can't be crafted in general?
-How to balance resource demand for high level warrior equipment?**

*GMs (or certain quests) can give regular items a new name and description, adding flavour text without any system benefits. Examples in my characters depot range as far as clothes with nice stitchings on them to holy artifacts of the Gods. There is also combat equipment that can be found as monster drops and in treasure hunts, but can't be crafted.

**Recipes for high level warrior equipment (all chestpieces, weapons and shields level 90+) require pure elements. Pure elements drop in almost all gathering actions in a probability of 1/1000. Magical and clerical rituals (which can be rather powerful and are the only thing mages and clerics actually can efficiently do right now) as well as special equipment required to succeed in most of the grand quests are also consuming large sums of pure elements. At least from a warriors perspective in game demand already outweighs supply for all elements but earth.

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Post by GolfLima » Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:44 pm

Re: Repairing Items should lower quality

* at the moment the "Repai-NPC´s " killing the need of some sort of crafters --> most have perfect things inbetween and as i know most of the things can found in treasures or dropted by monsters :arrow: so there is no need for master smithes / carpenters / tailors
* the question is how to handle "special equipment" --> may be this equipment can be marked as "undestryable" - not sure if this is possible
* high level things (can be made or found as i know) should be rare -> some of the ressources of high level things should be rare <--> the "Repair-NPC´s" making such things NOT rare

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Post by Kugar » Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:01 pm

Re: Repairing Items should lower quality

If this does end up happening making 'special items' an exception from the rule could end up being very unfair IMO. Whilst these special weapons/armours etc etc need magical gemstones to 'gm make' they are still weapons and armour in the end. Should they be an exception to the rule everyone would just end up making special items instead and the 'problem' as some see it will persist anyway. If anything it would make these items more 'special' and wouldn't be taken out and used every time the char goes to battle like some indestructible god :P .
at the moment the "Repair-NPC´s " killing the need of some sort of crafters
Crafters are still needed to buy many things, especially those things that the npc merchants don't sell. Eventually players need all weapons and armour (wood worker, smith and tailor).
most have perfect things inbetween and as i know most of the things can found in treasures or dropted by monsters :arrow: so there is no need for master smithes / carpenters / tailors
Monsters don't drop perfect stuff. Acolytes drop up to very good Nightplate but that's the best armour drop as far as I know. As for treasure maps - not everyone is a miner etc to find the maps and maps that are worth anything cost 5 gold on average - that does not guarantee that there will be any good treasure all the time, either. It's easier just to buy from a crafter. Anyway most have perfect things because it's such a small player base.
How to balance resource demand for high level warrior equipment?
Raise price of pure elements and armour? More legitimate and profitable business for non fighters?

I'm on the fence with this one but those are some of my observations/opinions.

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Post by GolfLima » Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:49 pm

Re: Repairing Items should lower quality

Kugar wrote:Crafters are still needed to buy many things, especially those things that the npc merchants don't sell. Eventually players need all weapons and armour (wood worker, smith and tailor).
:arrow: hope you´re right, but my experiance is another, sorry :cry:

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:20 pm

Re: Repairing Items should lower quality

Dear all,

thanks for the input on repairing. Let us first review what we have. Repairing as it is works perfectly without bugs. It is a fair money sink as many player use the service frequently. Other games just do it like Illarion and are very successful. At this moment, it does not look like we have a major issue that needs to be solved. Other aspects, such as the lack of magic or improvements to crafting/gathering are much more pressing.

However, as Illarion is a game that should promote interaction wherever possible, a generic solution might not always be the best solution. So everlasting items that never ever require any interaction with anyone but a NPC again might not be a perfect situation. At the same time, if we even remotely consider to have unique or special items that are more than just the 20th edition of the same sword, to turn all items into "consumables" might be to fight fire with fire.

Furthermore, I read about the idea to have players repair items to enhance interaction. Now let us put all this together: NPC repair should degrade the quality but items should (in principle) be everlasting, given enough effort and interaction. Player-player interaction should be necessary. What might be more reasonable to add a slight chance for NPC repair to reduce the quality and make crafters "restore" this quality again? So in bullet points:
  • NPC repair stays like it is concerning cost and interface. Full repair costs 50 % of item.worth.
  • Each time an item is repaired, there is a chance to lose one quality point of the item. The chance scales with the restored durability (e.g. repair of 50 durability: 50/5=10 % chance. Numbers are for illustration, only). The amount of lost quality points is stored in a dedicated data value.
  • Items with 0 quality left get destroyed
  • Crafters can restore the lost quality points by a dedicates repair operation, up to the original quality but not beyond. This consumes the same materials as for crafting the item.
  • Restore operation takes the same minimum skill and time while it gives the same skill as crafting the item. It shall also use the same tools and the crafting menu.
  • In order not to confuse players, the restore action shall not be called repairing but restoring, improving or restauration.
  • Open point is if this operation restores all lost quality points or just one each operation
Is this agreeable?

Estralis

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Post by GolfLima » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:32 pm

Re: Repairing Items should lower quality

thanks Estralis &
Estralis Seborian wrote:Open point is if this operation restores all lost quality points or just one each operation
:arrow: I´m for only one point ...if you have a "special" or "personal" weapon or armor or ... you will spend a lot of coins, things ...to get them repaired

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Post by Applesauce » Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:07 am

Re: Repairing Items should lower quality

Lets make it easy.
NPC's still repair, but one level of quality is lost each time.
To repair the quality, you need to visit a player crafter.
So, you can still continue on with NPC repair, but if you want to keep your item, sometime you will have to interact with a real player.
As for how he needs to repair, or charge you? That can be with items or coins, but should not include the magic gems or elements. Those should stay with the item, unless it does get destroyed by not maintaining it.
Please, keep it simple.

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Post by Mephistopheles » Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:15 am

Re: Repairing Items should lower quality

Estralis Seborian wrote:Dear all,

thanks for the input on repairing. Let us first review what we have. Repairing as it is works perfectly without bugs. It is a fair money sink as many player use the service frequently. Other games just do it like Illarion and are very successful. At this moment, it does not look like we have a major issue that needs to be solved. Other aspects, such as the lack of magic or improvements to crafting/gathering are much more pressing.

However, as Illarion is a game that should promote interaction wherever possible, a generic solution might not always be the best solution. So everlasting items that never ever require any interaction with anyone but a NPC again might not be a perfect situation. At the same time, if we even remotely consider to have unique or special items that are more than just the 20th edition of the same sword, to turn all items into "consumables" might be to fight fire with fire.

Furthermore, I read about the idea to have players repair items to enhance interaction. Now let us put all this together: NPC repair should degrade the quality but items should (in principle) be everlasting, given enough effort and interaction. Player-player interaction should be necessary. What might be more reasonable to add a slight chance for NPC repair to reduce the quality and make crafters "restore" this quality again? So in bullet points:
  • NPC repair stays like it is concerning cost and interface
  • Each time an item is repaired, there is a chance to lose one quality point of the item. The chance scales with the restored durability (e.g. repair of 50 durability: 50/5=10 % chance. Numbers are for illustration, only)
  • Items with 0 quality left get destroyed
  • Crafters can restore the lost quality points by a dedicates repair operation. This consumes the same materials as for crafting the item.
  • Repair operation takes the same minimum skill and time while it gives the same skill as crafting the item
  • Open point is if this operation restores all lost quality points or just one each operation
Is this agreeable?

Estralis
I like this proposed solution. However if it requires the crafter to use the same materials that is taken to make it to restore it, it should definitly go back to it's maximum quality. However, whats to say instead of crafting something in the hopes of getting a perfect becomes pointless simply because I can go get a Nightplate of good quality from an acolyte then have it restored to perfect for less materials than gambling with a craft for that perfect quality. Seriously warriors would have less of a need for crafters to produce stuff and more of a demand of fighters looking to restore their crappy looted weapons and armors.

There will need to somehow be a way to determine what the items original quality actually was before degradation.

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Post by Applesauce » Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:24 am

Re: Repairing Items should lower quality

Applesauce wrote:Lets make it easy.
NPC's still repair, but one level of quality is lost each time.
To repair the quality, you need to visit a player crafter.
So, you can still continue on with NPC repair, but if you want to keep your item, sometime you will have to interact with a real player.
As for how he needs to repair, or charge you? That can be with items or coins, but should not include the magic gems or elements. Those should stay with the item, unless it does get destroyed by not maintaining it.
Please, keep it simple.
To amend...

I think the minimum level of repair ability should be around 50 level.
By that I mean, that once the repair level has been reached, that crafter can repair any level item, even if they cant make it. We have a small player base. We would need to set the repair limit within our player base limits. The repair skill would be like any other ability to make a new item....I can sharpen your blade, even if I cannot make one so fine.

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Thu Jun 02, 2016 5:12 am

Re: Repairing Items should lower quality

I am not sure I saw this mentioned, so will add. A character has a one of a kind (roleplay-wise possibly or GM given in a quest) item, and if the cost to keep it at it's current level is too much, or not worth the character wearing/using it due to the possibility of loss, I would hope the change doesn't encourage the usual method of keeping this item by storing in the depot again. This item whether can be now made by a crafter or not has been pleasant to again have use by some of my characters in the VBU.

Otherwise it would also be very enjoyable to allow crafters repair again in order to generate revenue for them and roleplay for all.

When clarified it appears the item can be too expensive to restore as is i.e. requiring the same material and/or 50% the original cost...and what about items crafters can not make? Is this really going to leave options to "wear" their nice things over storing in the depot not trusting them to "chance"?

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:13 am

Re: Repairing Items should lower quality

I have clarified some aspects in my proposal, see http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 00#p700800

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Post by Vern Kron » Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:16 am

Re: Repairing Items should lower quality

I would suggest that there be a lesser cost of materials per item, so there is some advantage of repairing over starting from scratch. If you have to repair with the same materials to go recover one quality level, you may as well just start over from the beginning, unless you are attached to a very particular item (named, etc).

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:03 am

Re: Repairing Items should lower quality

Actually, that is the whole point about what I wrote. Restoring the quality should be for those items you really care for (gemmed, unique or otherwise special). To calculate "shares" of the needed materials is a mess. It is not the first time this topic is discussed, internally and in public. We also came up with ideas of "repair kits" you can craft with the same materials instead of the item and repair with it up to 100 % durability of the associated item; but all this turns out to become a complicated hell of balancing issues.

You need to know that at the same time as I write these lines, I draft a concept to add various unique items to the game, so unique items might, one day, become more common than now.

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Post by Durwinatica » Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:14 pm

Re: Repairing Items should lower quality

I didn't expect this topic to get the attention it did. Interesting!


I admit in my initial proposal I did not take in to account gemmed and unique items. Keep in mind, I'm a new player and I am nowhere NEAR getting my hands on any of that, so I was unaware of it when I made my initial proposal. When I had made it, I was under the impression that gemmed/unique items were uncommon and that it was common to have normal things repaired. It sounds like most people have many normal things mass produced and then pay for them, letting them break unless they are a unique or gemmed item. It seems I must adapt my thinking to a new view of things... a very interesting mental exercise. I have nothing to add at this moment, I'm trying to digest this new information, as well as the idea of gemmed and unique items since I don't know much about them. Right now though I feel Estralis's proposal is agreeable, however I'm confused about this line:

"NPC repair stays like it is concerning cost and interface. Full repair costs 50% of item.worth."

By that, does full repair mean player restoration, or NPC repair?


Thank you everyone for all this input. It's given me a lot of different perspectives to think on.

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