Mandatory or Voluntary Taxes

[Achae Eanstray]

Your opinion is helpful.

http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=10525

Since the gems are a reward for paying taxes and the object is to make gems more rewarding in other mantis tasks i.e. with the use of them in armor etc.

Why not change the way taxes are done? Instead of automatic removal which some may object to saying their character has no choice, why not have a place to go in order to "pay" their taxes for the "reward" of gems? This could be at the same place you can find out rank.

If many don't pay perhaps this reward should be adjusted to encourage voluntary taxation and gems aren't enough, this can even be done per town also.

I set up the poll for the two issues but would also like ideas added if you vote "other"

Thanks!

[Estralis Seborian]

Just to clarify: Currently, the gem handout is calculated based on the total taxes of last month divided by the number of tax payers of last month. Only those who pay taxes receive gems.

"Voluntary" taxes would mean that only the donations are counted. This means that characters who never paid a dime of taxes can receive gems.

[Jupiter]

That might just be a wording issue but: Taxes cannot be voluntary. If they are, they aren't taxes.
It is voluntary wether you buy gas for your car or not. But it is not voluntary wether you pay taxes for the gas or not. As Estralis said: What is left are donations.

Edit: Polls should always be bilingual. This should be prepared before the poll is made public.

[Achae Eanstray]

This may be affected by the calculation of how many gems are received from last taxes however, gems can be handed out the time the taxes are paid which means that those that elect not to pay taxes due won't receive any gems.

[Ragorn]

To summarize the proposal: You suggest a dealer, that sells magical gems.

I completely disagree. This would just favor powergaming - only the rich will be able to buy additional gems.

I'd suggest to change the tax back to 5% to keep the whole amount of gold ingame at a reasonably constant level.

What currently ingame is really bullshit is the distribution of the magical gems related to the towns.
It does in no way make sense, that Cadomyr gets 10 times more magical gems than Runewick or Galmair.
(Please no discussion regarding the rough estimation - you all know what I mean)

A possible change could be that 1% taxes are taken from the whole property a player owns (in germany we would call that "Vermögenssteuer" ).
The reason is, that many players do not sell their loot and other stuff, only for the reason that the money is taxed.
The number of magical gems could be calculated only based on the donations for the towns.
The whole number of magical gems should be distributed equally over the whole (acitve) playerbase, with some relation to the players town rank maybe.

[Ragorn]

Short addition: I really like the idea, that magical gems may become more important and get additional operational use.

But this makes it very important, that the possibilities of the players to get magical gems is very fair.
Magical gems should be available equally to all characters, independently if they are rich, skilled, have special positions in the towns or if their player have good connections to the staff

[Achae Eanstray]

To summarize the proposal: You suggest a dealer, that sells magical gems.

No, to summarize the proposal I suggest instead of mandatory removing your coin from your depot (which honestly I have a hard time figuring out this roleplay except maybe the "gods") Your char goes to the designated area voluntarily with coins and places them to offer taxes for the usual reward of gems they now receive with mandatory removal of taxes i.e. still the 1%. This is under the same principle that some are discussing of how chars would worship the gods by going to the alter and offering something. If the mandatory removal of taxes is "buying" gems then I guess in a broader sense that would be the case then.

[TiaSarah]

If they are still going to be labeled "taxes" and not "donations to the city" it implies that the char would still be expected to pay them. This begs the question of what punishments may arise if they don't, and how this might be handled if the char and/or PO is away for longer than one IG month. It has the potential for some good RP, but it could also cause more headaches and should be well thought out if instituted.

As for the current system, I can see the Don stationing an angry little Dwarf outside the door of every home, business and gate in the city. You don't pass until you pay. In Runewick, perhaps they enchant the portal into the city to take the coin automatically from your purse. And in Cadomyr... well everyone there is so honorable and obedient that their taxes are paid before they are due

[Estralis Seborian]

It would have been extremely helpful if, before a poll is opened, the options are clear and the proposed change is put in clear words. I do not quite get it, still.

So basically, you want to have voluntary, manual paying of taxes instead of "forced RP removal of money from depots". For me, this would result in two things: Players who like gems and taxes are forced to walk once a month to a NPC to pay their taxes, most probably getting annoyed by this after some time. And those who give a shit about taxes, gems and all that just are not bothered and can pile up their gold to the sky.

On 5% taxes: We are still experimenting with the taxes, 1% just shifts the amount of money you can hold until you cannot earn more money than you pay taxes to a higher level. Please give us your feedback from time to time on your opinion on the level of taxes.

[Achae Eanstray]

As written in the Mantis.. if you don't wish to pay your taxes for the reward of gems perhaps the gems need to be adjusted or give more reward for those people to pay their taxes. If taxes aren't a reward then they are a punishment, or negative factor in the game which removes some of the fun of playing, they can't be both.

Would mandatory taxes be enough to discourage new players from deciding to play and go elsewhere? I don't know..hence a poll to see what people think of mandatory versus voluntary. Not a poll to see if they like 1% versus 5%, I suggest making a different poll for that.

[Ragorn]

What currently ingame is really bullshit is the distribution of the magical gems related to the towns.
It does in no way make sense, that Cadomyr gets 10 times more magical gems than Runewick or Galmair.
(Please no discussion regarding the rough estimation - you all know what I mean)

A possible change could be that 1% taxes are taken from the whole property a player owns (in germany we would call that "Vermögenssteuer" ).
The reason is, that many players do not sell their loot and other stuff, only for the reason that the money is taxed.
The number of magical gems could be calculated only based on the donations for the towns.
The whole number of magical gems should be distributed equally over the whole (acitve) playerbase, with some relation to the players town rank maybe.

A fair distribution of the magical gems is what this game needs.
Not a discussion about the percentage, or if taxes should be mandatory or not, or the roleplay reason behind mandatory taxes...
The former 5% tax already was a very good setup, to (technically) keep the whole amount of gold in reasonable size - and this is the base for ALL trading rp ingame!

[Mephistopheles]

I'm sorry Ragorn, but I disagree, I can't help but stress the fact that again theres very little rare things ingame.

It's easy to be rich, join the goldsmithing bandwagon, or don't because it doesn't fit your rp (my main does not goldsmith) as for Cadomyr always having alot more gems than Galmair, maybe it's because certain players that were active in galmair before ie. Prylers had alot of money, they donated alot... you all got more gems yay everyones happy, now most of the citizens hoard their wealth through items or just don't work for money... Soo, no gems.

Each town will have their highs and lows depending on the player base, Cadomyr was practically a ghostown, and what few players that were there with rank 7 (equivilant of Galmair's patrician) got litterally 1-2 latents

As for everyone getting gems equally uhh why? I think the implementation of gems for taxes has given some a sort of dependency on the gems, whereas before gems were not given out for a few coins. Most people complained about how hard gems were to get before but how rewarding it was to have a gemmed weapon. Now it's like "oh whatever he has an entire set of slight gems, I got four of those in my depot."

[Vern Kron]

I hate to admit this, but on the matter of gems collection, I agree with meph.

If you do not have skills, political favor (which is gained from pretty simple, but time consuming, quests), or money, then what RP reason could exist for you to have magical gems? We have a skill system in place for a reason. We should use it.

The town's not getting even amounts of gems is not a dev issue, but a player issue.

Also, currently characters do have the option to not pay taxes: they can be outlaws, as far as I understand it. It fits well with the RP of the game, that those who do not pay taxes and thus are found in disfavor, get offered no protection from the cities.

[GolfLima]

Schade, wieder einmal alles nur in Englisch.

What a pity! All only in english.

[Estralis Seborian]

"Should the tax be set on a voluntary basis for citizens since the character receives a reward of gems?" -> 1 Voter (Threadstarter?)

I think we can close this.

[GolfLima]

Da ich die Hälfte der Diskussion nicht verstanden habe konnte ich auch nicht abstimmen

[Estralis Seborian]

Keine Sorge, auch ich habe den Vorschlag nicht verstanden...

[Achae Eanstray]

I believe the poll was set for 15 days but it appears as if done and the votes are in..I would agree to close this.