what about training? - allowed or no?

Lloyd · Post by **Lloyd** » Wed May 01, 2002 1:51 am

today I saw two people training:
Magus Kaibus
Darkend Blade

it was needle training, ritght in the middle of town.
when queried, Darkend blade said Gms let him trian there.
Gms name:
Cosmaterra

is training allowed or not allowed?

Astral · Post by **Astral** » Wed May 01, 2002 4:08 am

Training is allowed, as long as it is within reason. If to people are fighting solely to increase parry, then that is no reason. Needle training I presume fits into that category. Sure, two warriors can spar with each other to "train", but that is a reason. Just training anyone who says "can u train me?" is not a reason.

Gurok · Post by **Gurok** » Wed May 01, 2002 4:16 am

it is a good reason, a warrior needs to learn from someone. If they teacher takes a fee for his teachings then I don't see any problems with training, as long as it is within reason. When I train people I only do it for a short amount of time so they dont become a great fighter in just one lesson. I think that is more RP anyway.

Cosmaterra · Post by **Cosmaterra** » Wed May 01, 2002 8:29 am

Training with sword is allowed, with needle not.

And Cosma isen´t my Gm Char so Lloyd calm down, i can´t have my eys everywere and im tierd about to pray the same things ever and every day on. I don´t stop my roleplay ´cause some of you cowards don´t know what this mean.
And as long is i can´t controll with what weapon they train it´s hard to find out. But everybody of you recognisce the new text at the login,... i don´t spare more time anylonger to talk to all powergamer and rulebrakers, if i know they can read the rules on this board. But I write them on a list and this is enought for the moment.

#me who looks hopefully to the soon comming email approach system

farewell

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Wed May 01, 2002 10:03 am

Training with needles allows extremely fast training with few damage ! It is DEFINITELY BUG-USING AND POWERGAMING !!! Therefor FORBIDDEN !
Characters can be deleted WITHOUT a warning for needle-training.

Magus Kaibus · Post by **Magus Kaibus** » Wed May 01, 2002 12:39 pm

First of all I would like to say as usual when Darkend Blade told Llyod that Cosmeratta
Llyod made an offensive comment calling Darkend Blade Cosmeratta's "pet" I think that
if anybody should be banned its Llyod he continueously makes ofensive comments whenever
someone proves him wrong. Yesterday I was casting at the insects and Llyod killed me and said NO CASTING IN TOWN. Then when one of my friends killed him he asked me to kill my friend and I said no so he said wanna be killed now or later I said whatever and he killed me.
Then he complains about being res killed and wonders why he dies so often. I think that Llyod is the main target for res killing because hes such a jerk. Llyod is one of the few people I dislike on Illarion and he ruins my experience for myself and many others.

Erdrick · Post by **Erdrick** » Wed May 01, 2002 1:20 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, Damien, but did they implement 'Puncture Weapons' for the purpose that people would use needles more often?
Remember, these needles are bigger than the little ones we have today. Smiths surely couldn't get them as small as the modern ones.
The only good way to raise puncture weapons is by training. I'm sure you can raise it great out in the wilderness, but for this character, at least, that's WAY too slow and not worth my time... theres money to be made! :biggrin:

Lloyd · Post by **Lloyd** » Wed May 01, 2002 1:27 pm

ya magus, its called roleplaying, if I remember, you were giving away characters from another game to warroirs one or two days ago? maybe you should roleplay more often...

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Wed May 01, 2002 4:54 pm

punkture weapons had nothing to do with needles
you cant train it with needles

Erdrick · Post by **Erdrick** » Wed May 01, 2002 7:29 pm

@Sirius: Maybe Punkture is slashing or something in the Deutche words, but needles do work when you train with them.
Puncture weapons is related to Needles, (Scissors)? and (Saws)? I do not know, but when I use needle the only skill that rises is, "Puncture Weapons"

Caranthir the great · Post by **Caranthir the great** » Wed May 01, 2002 8:05 pm

I think that if the puncture weapons hasn't got anything to do with needles, it migth be "piercing". (spears ect)

Astral · Post by **Astral** » Wed May 01, 2002 11:07 pm

puncture = pierce

I know that you cant get the puncture skill with needles, but I dont know if they can be used to raise the skill.

Anyway, when they talk about "needle training", they mean the action to increase the other person's parry, not increase their puncture weapon skill.

But if there is a fee involved, is needle training all right?

Erdrick · Post by **Erdrick** » Thu May 02, 2002 12:08 am

Try making a new character, get him some O.K. equipment, and equip him with a needle, and only a needle. Then, go attack some flies. By the time you kill them, you should have your puncture skill (And if Astral is right, for Germans "Pierce")
I am not crazy, I know that needles are related to puncture.

Magus Kaibus · Post by **Magus Kaibus** » Thu May 02, 2002 12:10 am

If I had known that training his parry was against the rules then I wouldn't have done it. However Llyod has also asked me for training and I gave it to him just like I do to all the people that actualy have a reason and Llyod had one he said he didn't want to be killed anymore so I figured hmmm good reason ok so I needle trained him also.

Cain Freemont · Post by **Cain Freemont** » Thu May 02, 2002 12:51 am

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Training with needles is "forbidden" because it is for the "sole purpose of raising parry?" That's just a bunch of hoo-haa that people say so that someone won't get better than their own character. It makes no sense that you should restrict the use of needles in training. When I spar, either with needles or with swords, it says that I am raising my slashing weapons...I dont know where the puncture comes from but the reason I trained with needles wasn't to "use bugs or powergame." It was to train my character so that he would be able to fight better. Wouldn't that make sense? Wouldn't you theoretically be able to get better in parry by fighting someone that has a needle rather than a huge, lunky firesword or broadsword..or two-hander??? It sounds legit to me, so I don't see any reason to stop doing so...It isn't tweaking any "bugs", or powergaming...Wouldn't it be more logical to attack faster with a needle than a large weapon? Doesn't that make it closer to real life and more "realistic?" Do you think that if it were a bad thing that it would have been put it in there in the first place? I don't think so.. Think about my words, do they not make sense?

Sincerely yours,

Cain Freemont

Astral · Post by **Astral** » Thu May 02, 2002 2:28 am

With my words I did not mean that puncture was piercing in german, I meant that both of those english words are the same. This was just in reply to the suggestion that a seperate category be created for 'piercing'.

And if everyone did this action and got away with it because they said it was 'for fighting better', then look what we would have! EVERYONE would have max parry and that would be no fun. So if you were planning to use it to get an edge over others, think again, if everyone did this, it would DECREASE your advantage. So 'training to fight better' is just some innocent words describing 'powergaming'.

Aragon · Post by **Aragon** » Thu May 02, 2002 7:43 am

It must look very ridiculous to see two great warriors in their iron armour hitting each other with small fine needles to train. I haven't ever heard about medival knights using needles for training. This isn't realistic at all. They use wooden swords or real small swords for training, but no needles.
I think, it is also a question of honour, that a great warrior or someone who want's to be one, wouldn't use such ridiculous thing like needles for training.
And by the way, it doesn't sound logical, that needles will rise your parry. It is a completly different way of fighting against someone with small needles in his hand than with a sword.

Therefore it is a bug and not yet really balanced in the game and also forbidden by serverrules. If you want to raise your parry in a legal way, fight against the monsters in Illarion, this will work also ... and is a honourful way of gaining experiences.

(Edited by Aragon at 8:44 am on May 2, 2002)

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Thu May 02, 2002 10:11 am

Well, as you see : You ONLY get a "puncture weapons" skill when you use needles ?
All "Real" weapons rise other skills in these days ? Great. An easy way to tell who has powergamed : Those with a puncture skill more than the old minimum, or young players with puncture skill, can easily be identified as powergamers, and punished / deleted without problem.
That's perhaps a great idea.

(Edited by Damien at 10:12 am on May 2, 2002)

GMcFly · Post by **GMcFly** » Thu May 02, 2002 10:13 am

to train with needle is heavy powergaming cuze you push only parry up,
wit maximum at speed and minimum damage.
i dont see a reason for this discusion cuze it´s not allowed.

Erdrick · Post by **Erdrick** » Thu May 02, 2002 1:16 pm

Remember, back then, needles were considerably larger than they are today. EXAMPLE:

A teacher might have borrowed one from his wife, running off to his shield lesson with a young boy willing to spare a few gold coins. He arrives, the boy swinging around a shield, clumsily. Well, his Parry must not be so hot. He pulls out a long thick needle, dulled at the end after countless hours of work. The teacher makes a slow jab, and shows the boy how to deflect a jab like that. Then the teacher speeds up, and eventually the boy is learning different blocking techniques for different angles for jabs. The teacher tells the boy to get a good breakfast after a good sleep and to come back the next day.
LESSON: DON'T BE SO CLOSE-MINDED!
The boy is learning how to use a shield! Yes, it might be just a start, but even the most advanced warrior could learn some new techniques!

By the way, I hope you aren't pointing at me and labeling me a powergamer.
I never powergame. The last time I trained was a number of months ago, and that was only for about 35 minutes at most. People who train for an hour or more are powergamers, since they are raising their skills to more than what is needed.

I see your point, people who hate powergamers, but your sight is way to narrow. Please consider what I've said.

Lloyd · Post by **Lloyd** » Thu May 02, 2002 1:35 pm

first, education *(teachers)* did not exist then, there was masters.
second, a needle is ALOT differant then a sword, and teaching a child to block a needle....fine. but teaching him to block a sword is another thing. thirdly, magus we trained out of town and in a spartly populated area for like 5mins tops. fourth, why not add wooden weapons and small shortswords to the game? also make two parry skills. one Light Weapons, Heavy weapons. that way needle only increases light weapons, which most people dont use. making them to be FORCED to spar with big "clunky" swords. this SHOULD reduce trainers of parry by at least half becuase there is a higher risk of death.
**by education, that includes schools, well free schools anyway. only priests were readers. the only way to get large amounts of training was from swordsmen masters, martial artist masters,master mages....and most of this was done on or near days of a tournement in a city arena.

Darkend Blade · Post by **Darkend Blade** » Thu May 02, 2002 2:17 pm

All my training is for my roleplaying, you see, i have to become strong, so that i can do my role. And needle does damage fast, so i really don't see problem with it. And if i'm to be deleted, then you might as well delete many others. I'll do as you wish, its just i need good training for my roleplaying. Also Lloyd, why you being a jerk? I've never wronged you. And besides your the one that is always asking for training. Ask few others they tell you.

Ashag · Post by **Ashag** » Thu May 02, 2002 5:28 pm

how could enybody block a fast blow from a tiny needle or many fast blows from a tiny needle

Astral · Post by **Astral** » Thu May 02, 2002 7:13 pm

@Darkened Blade:
So anyoneone can just walk up and decide to play the role of a strong warrior and therefore powergame? This just doesn't make sense. A skill is something you build over time. And so is a role.

GMcFly · Post by **GMcFly** » Thu May 02, 2002 7:40 pm

@Darkened Blade:
At next you say "i have a role as a holy masterwarrior" and you train on the cross with a needle ? pfff
Use fists or swords like a real warrior, and not like a child.
And if you want to play a child, great please dont use shields, they are a bit heavy for a lil boy
@ Erdrick:
A rusty dagger is better because you can see the weapon who you must parry ;)
and we have nice slim swords.
Needles are only used form the players for the the speed

(Edited by GMcFly at 7:50 pm on May 2, 2002)

Darkend Blade · Post by **Darkend Blade** » Thu May 02, 2002 10:17 pm

I dont need needles anymore, sorry, i know what i did was wrong, but i didn't know it was bad cuz i see people train with needles all the time, it won't happen again, i'll finish the right way, the way of the warrior.

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Fri May 03, 2002 1:16 am

@Erdrick: You leave out a single fact. It is nonsense to train with a needle : In real life, you won't be able to attack that FAST with a needle. If someone uses a simple shield, NOONE using a needle or even small dagger may manage to hit him with it ( you totally lack the weapon length to reach around the shield, you can't even target his legs ).
CLOSE-MINDED ? Nope. The needle is a system flaw. It allows newbies to increase their parry to high levels within minutes. It is a program glitch and users of this glitch are granted a very unfair advantage over the "normal" players (in most cases the older ones).

Astral · Post by **Astral** » Fri May 03, 2002 2:48 am

Yes, but parry is part of how you use the shield. If you had no parry skill but had a shield, a strong attacker could still attack you with it. A shield is no good if you dont know how to use it. As you get better at using armor (~parry), you can no longer be hit by the needle. So someone may have the best equipment, but if they just stand there dumbfounded, they can be hit by a needle. Maybe we could have another skill that dictates how much damage you avert by using your armor better? I am not sure if parry reduces the damage you recieve or if it just stops you from getting hit altogether. Parry is for blocking hits, and another skill is for reducing damage when you get hit. Just like a magic resistance.

Anyways, just my idea of using a needle

Erdrick · Post by **Erdrick** » Fri May 03, 2002 2:52 am

If it's a flaw, then why is there a skill exclusively for it? If it's nonsense, why's it possible?
Tell me this, and my side will no longer be spoken.

Astral · Post by **Astral** » Fri May 03, 2002 3:01 am

The skill is not solely for needles, it is for spears, scissors, etc. If they wanted to remove needles as a weapon, then they should also remove scissors, who would fight with them? I presume it is still allowed now because it just hasn't been changed yet.

And while we're talking about weapons, why is dagger a slashing weapon?