The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

[Mr.Oldie]

I love it.
I find it more exciting to have the creatures chase the character with vigor compared to the old "semi-sleeping" wild creatures.

Having said that i see a few negatives too in this.

For one thing a single sec of lag would get the character completely enciricled by creatures.
It almost feels like you are getting ambushed like at the galmair bridges.
It might happen even if there is a group of players at the same time depending on the place you are in.
I suggest:
a) a lesser respawn amount
b) a way to keep the char only surrounded in 7 tiles instead of 8 at the very least to ensure the possiblity of escaping.(can even set a time limit for the wild creature to notice that single opening; if that is possible)

Alhough i wouldnt ask to completely retract to the previous condition, a bit of moderation if possible would be good.
On a scale of 1 to 10 ; 1 being previous condition and 10 being the current pathfinding. i would suggest an 8.
This would keep the excitement thats intended while at the same time not make the lesser combat attributed characters feel helpless(including the new players).

Another thing i noticed.
The pathfinding is sooo powerful that the town guards are not able to prevent creatures from entering(while following a character).
The guard was able to push away the creature once but it just rushed back in and followed Purple inside.
Might want to increase the guard response accordingly.

[Ranwyln]

hm dont know if it has to do with Mas, but at the moment its a bit too much, its very hard to run away from monsters and i fear it will be nearly impossible to hunt highler lvl creatures now (with running in and running out) cause they follow you for ages and from everywhere around you other enemys jump in and attack you.

Edit: Alright tried to go into the goldmine...the complete amount of slimes came out of the cave and the raptors followed me over the bridge...so even after surviving the first monsters there were around 10-14 more waiting to nag at me...

[Jupiter]

The pathfinding is sooo powerful that the town guards are not able to prevent creatures from entering(while following a character).
The guard was able to push away the creature once but it just rushed back in and followed Purple inside.
Might want to increase the guard response accordingly.

Indeed. Will do that

[Achae Eanstray]

I actually find it a little irritating to have to kill all wolves in sight and from tiles further then my char can see and am hoping some moderation in the monster hunt and targeting can be achieved (I saw the mantis on targeting so assume this will help greatly for archers).

1. Agreeing with Mr.Oldie, a slight moderation of about 8 would be good. But I'd also prefer the same monster not arrive from further then my char can view.

2. On the whole I think it is a definite improvement compared to previously.... I would love to have to occasionally chase one.. perhaps a few would need to be hunted, stalked and lured

[Uhuru]

Overall, I do agree, I like the change. However, having a swarm of spiders come from well off my screen, and I have a large screen and can see a long ways, and surround my character was a little surprising to say the least. Didn't even know we were near a spider nest. Which leads me to believe they possibly swarmed someone else, who ran and they followed him/her there and ghosted that person. So, monsters could be well out of normal areas, leading to whole new adventures, which will be most interesting.

I do agree, we need some sort of limits on range for how far a monster will target. It would also be nice if we could jump up a tree or something to escape a mass mob of 6 spiders, 3 dogs, and a beholder, chasing you down. Thing is, you can't run as more monsters just join in the chase. It gets worse and worse. 4 spiders turns into a bigger and bigger mob. It gets uglier and uglier.

So now, you run back to towns... we are going to teleport into a town and characters will be teleporting into mass mobs that people have left behind when they ran to town to escape the mob. Adds an interesting issue to the game. Does it need to be addressed here or ingame or both? Galmair had issues with one spider in the fields and by the teleporter, porting in and finding a whole mob of monsters? This could be very interesting indeed.

[Banduk]

I don't like the new pathfinding:

It becomes too early critical even for higher skilled characters in the wilderness, so most of the map is worthless at the moment. You can not pass it without getting followed by an incredible amount of monster. There are no location to rest a little bit.

New player simply have no chance, cause soon they will get faced much too much enemies.

Skilled player will not have a good chance to skill up, cause they will not be able to reach higher level enemies.

Distance weapons are relative worthless at the moment.

So far, we should balance it again:
- Reducing the amount of monster, rhere will be however areas with more since they followed the people over large distance, but this will most likely around the town gates and teleporter.
- Reducing the respawn extremly (somehow in hour range and make sure, not all come back at once)
- Reducing the level of alertness. Maybe the monster you are attacking at the moment or attacked in the past has a higher alert level, except it is target by a distance weapon.
- Increase the possible level difference, that would allow you to skill

Banduk

[Jupiter]

Distance weapons are relative worthless at the moment.

Simply no. The far mor effective than before.

[Annabeth]

Distance weapons are relative worthless at the moment.

Simply no. The far mor effective than before.

I agree on this. Now its just the more smooth balancing of it + fixing the targeting problems when the target is moving.

[Avariel]

I agree. Distance weapons are very useful again

[GolfLima]

when solving the problem with marking a target for distance weapons than they become usefull ...at the moment they are useless

[Uhuru]

I agree and disagree. Yes, distance weapons are much better, however, if you are being chased, an archer can't stop to shoot, therefore, distance becomes useless. So, when you collect 3 or more enemies on your tail, forget about it, useless, have to switch to a different weapon or teleport out. An archer just cannot stand still long enough to get enough shots off to kill enough targets when being surrounded by enemies.

Per my previous posts, they come in from all over, surrounding you. All right, Uhuru tends to hunt in a pack, she very rarely ever goes out alone. She can hold a line for an archer to shoot, which helps quite a lot. I am imagining that this is done intentionally byy the developers. Archers shouldn't be hunting alone or be terribly effective alone. Just as warriors are better in a group, with an archer watching Uhuru's back. And a mage/healer watching them both. This is my preference in a group. We don't have that yet in Illarion, but that is where we are headed once magic arrives. ((prays for the day))

So, if we take this into consideration, I think it is working quite well. An archer running alone through the woods should have difficulty as anyone alone should. However, if an archer runs with his or her "team" or warriors, then they have a better fighting chance. Look to the future of what should be! Not a lone single hunter.

[Mephistopheles]

I like it but theres some issues, like the old client Creatures chased you til you either A) out ran them (highly unlikely) B) killed you C) you kill them or finally D) they get bored with you and go after someone else close. BUT there wasn't nearly as many creatures spawned as there are now and the fact that the new armor system/trifecta makes it so that even some low level creatures can deal some heavy damage and are deadly in even small numbers to certain armored warriors. Old system fights tended to be longer and gem effects gave players an edge to strategize over monsters (yep I brought that into it =P) now there's still the high emphasis on Damage.

My thoughts...
Lower spawn rate
lower damage of many creatures at least slightly (I do kinda miss old dodge and parry, none of this level crapolio, makes character make dull, note: thats personal opinion not fact)
and of course add gem effects

[Ufedhin]

For non warrior types its hell! harvesting herbs in most areas of the wild is out of the question its just not worth the risk.

[Mr.Oldie]

seconding UFe on that. cant gather the forest herbs without getting almost killed.

Same problem occurs with treasure hunting too..
An above average char cant solo even small maps now
Now it needs atleast 2 above average fighters to hunt them.
running to the spot while looking at the map in between is making a huge horde of creatures follow you
clearing the area; trying to find the exact spot while the other keeps a look out.
and then after digging all the guardians rushing and encircling the digger mostly.

Wel the treasure hunting issue can be overlooked after a bit of practise i guess.
but still worth looking into.

[Ranwyln]

I think the pathfinding as it is now will keep away new players and even may olds ones keep from logging in. Everything around you attacks you on sight or even on smell. For Mas i love it cause everything goes crazy, but for the other months too its just to dangerous. I understand the idea of hunting in groups, but we dont have the player base for that. I have to keep away from a lot of monsters cause they are to dangerous, but i learnd that and still was able to hunt near them with being careful, thats now impossible. Even if i am able to clear an area to dig a treasure or do anything else the respawn rate is too high and you are, after respawn, immideately surrounded by enemies.

Proposals:
- Reduce respawn rate drastically (so you are able to clear an area and go for herbs, treasures whatever )
- Reduce the overall amount of monsters in the world (really crowded and populated world we got
- make it possible to flee from them without running into next town (add a time factor to the pathfinding )
- Add a behavior to monsters <---this one i will try to explain a bit more but my english isnt the best.

Behavior:
give each kind of monsters a different behavior like Wolves,dogs and smaller monsters that arent just dumb like slimes dont attack on sight, even bears would not attack humans without need, so maybe kinda Animal behavior. Monster behavior we have more clever monsters, more aggressive ones, less agressive ones and so on...e.g. Zombies need some time till they react and are slow , you can easily outrun them (at the moment they run around like elves), Dragons attack on sight, treasure guards maybe too and so on.

How to do that:
Don't know if its possible, but worth a try. Add an attack roll, like if you got a 100 sided dice animals attack from themselves with 1 out of 100 (increasing if you stay near them for longer time) and dragons or treasure guardians for example with a 1-99 out of 100. So you always have a random factor in it but can normally say Animals dont attack as much as monsters do and even they have different ways of attacking. If you attack something yourself they will just behave as before.
So you still can hunt for bigger monsters without fearing to be attacked of the whole flora and fauna around you (still it will happen that they could go after you)

I hope my ideas are understandable
PO Ranwyln

[Ufedhin]

I all for having big nasty buggers we all must run from ,i like having my heart beat faster when creeping around in dangerous areas,just not continuously and everywhere whenever i walk out of town.
It does one major thing i most strongly dislike, roll playing outside towns and safe areas cannot happen, typing frantically only if something has to be said while running to avoid ones certain doom does not promote it.Its one thing to have a few rabid beasts one can learn to avoid or stay away from but every critter?
Im sorry but i dont like it at all.

[Banduk]

What could be done as a first adaptation from my point of view:
1. Reduce monster alertness to something in the middle in between ‘I can’t see the hunter a single tile away from me’ to ‘I smell it over the distance of an HD+ screen.’ I like the idea of Rawnlyn having different alertness for different monster.

Over longer distance we could change the following as well:
2. Let’s add some safe areas, easy to reach .Uhuru had the idea of trees to climb, It would be easy to add to some large trees a ladder and 2 or 3 tiles in the second level to stay on. This would be nice location for RP and logoff as well.
3. Different monster load from a few close to road and town for lone and new player via normal loaded for small parties until extremely overcrowded for very large parties.
4. In between loaded spots should be space with less or no load for retreatment and RP. RP needs time to write and listen, if you can’t stay still, there is no RP.
5. Increased skill up speed (Fighting 2 minutes a lvl 5 monster per online hour should be sufficient to gain the max possible skill load for a 50% armor and weapon fighter that hour). In this case player who want to skill up don’t need to stay hour for hour without RP and other characters around in the wilderness.
6. Shoot arrows into another level so archers become more cats instead of wolves. Combine it with the trees, you get an interesting new way to hunt.

Nearly another issue but I think I should write it:
To the ones, who find it very much exiting, and expect everybody should deal with, please think about the following player as well. Sure these are not the type of player, Illarion is made for and we could do without them but I doubt we have any player base to do so.
- Poor internet (That’s me for example, don’t even try to tell us what supplier is cheap and fast, we checked out a lot and found 2300 is the best we can get in normal times, in peak load times down to 1/100th, every day multiple times nothing, so lag and in interruption is the normal behavior.)
- Lone wolf. Spend some of the time alone in the wilderness, fighting, collecting herbs, exploring areas.
- Occasional player. Not everybody can spend multiple hours day by day in one piece in game. There isn’t always a hunting party to join and often enough even a short break due to such unessential planned and unplanned RL interruption like wife, husband, children, household, telephone, supper, work, school … will force this people to left immediately, even in the middle of nowhere. If such a RL interruption means more likely IG death than a very rare amount of people will feel well with.
- New player with RP capability to develop. He / she don’t talk much at the beginning; just want to have fun with monsters and exploring the map. With time he / she find out how IG structures work and talking is a way to have fun as well. Based on my notice it is the very most type of new player.
- People with lower skill in mouse and keyboard. In most cases an error while moving the character must not lead into death. (e.g when I was 17, a keyboard has been nothing else than a music instrument and first computer with mouse appears on the workstation market so my skill here is 20-25%.)

Banduk

[Jupiter]

Some monsters walk faster than players can run. That needs some work.

[Alrik]

I agree Jupiter. Just occured at Cadomyr. Coulnd´t get distance to a foe which I have seen while it was charging at me. Ran -> Monster got in hand to hand combat distance, kept running after me and attacking the whole time till I was ghosted - without a chance to get away (even if there was enough space)

[Lord Arcia]

I honestly like the monsters being more aggressive...But they are just too dang fast. I can't even play on my laptop anymore if I leave the front gates. The monsters are faster than my computer can handle.

After playing on my PC that the monsters aren't so bad when you can actually play the game. But their speed is a little crazy. If most of these monsters are going to be able to sprint and catch anyone, there should be some sort of balance. Maybe reduce their damage a bit?

It seems like some of the monsters can even see around corners.

Maybe watch this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0pmIIgAqYo

[Gina South]

[quote="Lord Arcia"]I honestly like the monsters being more aggressive...But they are just too dang fast. I can't even play on my laptop anymore if I leave the front gates. The monsters are faster than my computer can handle.

After playing on my PC that the monsters aren't so bad when you can actually play the game. But their speed is a little crazy. If most of these monsters are going to be able to sprint and catch anyone, there should be some sort of balance. Maybe reduce their damage a bit?

It seems like some of the monsters can even see around corners.

I absolutely agree... but a person should be able to run from a fight without being ghosted..we are having many cross parties... MAS should be dangerous... but you should be able to run

[Jupiter]

The speed issue has been acknowledged. If everything goes well, that will be solved on Sunday.

[Uhuru]

Some monsters walk faster than players can run. That needs some work.

Keep in mind differences in location, meaning in the states versus over seas. Caldarion can walk faster than Uhuru and she has to run just to keep up with him. Then Uhuru looks at poor Brawndara and thinks it could always be worse.

[Ranwyln]

I have to admit that i still dont like it.
Even with slower monster you always have to run in the wilderness or to kill everything on sight. If you are lucky no stronger monsters will be around so you are able to stay there (and killing the respawn again and again) or you will have to start running again.
In areas with a lot of obstacles you can be death trapped very fast (like the labyrinth).

And i really dont like the idea (even rp wise) that everything from the smallest insect to the largest animal just attacks you as soon as it gets a hint of you. No population would settle in such a hostile environment.

Smallest lags can get you surrounded by monsters and the sound of battle will attract even more so they build rows to kill you.
I can understand the aspect of going out in groups, but there arent always groups to find and not everyone always wants to go out with others, sometimes i just want to go out alone and do some smaller treasures (yes i know its an mrpg but it still has to make fun and for me fun is to be able to do some things alone too), but as soon as the treasures are in an area with some stronger monsters in it, it will become impossible without an army around you and i think most wont go out in groups of four or five to do small or average maps. Other thing bout the maps is with bigger maps (Pirate +) the digger or the weakest one will prolly just be killed instantly and surrounded by the monsters.
Newer players wont be able to skill fighting cause they just will be eaten up from everything around so it is just annoying and frustrating for them (especially after you dont always find someone to train with and it shouldnt be needed to train in town with others till you are a above average fighter to be able to do your first steps outside of the town walls).

So at the moment the only thing i am able to do (as an above average fighter), is to idle in town, do some crafts, hope for people around to rp with and maybe when lucky do a treasure in an area where i know i can even kill large amounts of the monsters living there, or wait and hope that enough people are around and interested in doing a hunt.

Ideas to maybe help to make it "easier" again were mentioned already by several peoples.

- higher respawn times
- less monsters
- decrease damage monsters do
- different agressivety levels for monsters
- decrease the "spotting" skill of the monsters
- increase the amount of areas with lower level monsters (with no big ones in between) as some sort of "levelling" area for new players
- more save spots even in the woods and so on (but still you wont be able to leave them cause the monsters will just camp infront, as happened in Mas infront of the towns where monsters tried to rush in again and again)

Cheers PO Ranwyln

[Mephistopheles]

okay I bring up again, the old system also had creatures follow you. So really this really isn't much different. But, with the armor trifecta even lower creatures can harm max warriors, and god forbid a heavy armored warrior encounters a creature using blunt. This created a challenge before yet now it makes it very hard. Because even in max heavy (100 skill perfect nightplate) my char gets hurt badly by 2 lv 4 creatures using blunt that surround him.

New suggestions
lower the difference in the armor trifecta slightly so that light won't take such major damage to slashing and heavy so much from blunt etc, a rebalance
Increase constitution of lv 7+ strong monsters and highly lower or take out regen. (this enables us to dance about and hit our targets without being surrounded and making it possible to kill the higher lv creature)

please consider.

[Mr.Oldie]

i've a new suggestion.

Specify the roam area for each spawn.
Like a roam square in each spawn case. This should either be set to each creature spawned or perhaps the group which radomly spawns in an area(whichever is the case that server uses)
this should be optional so that GMs in quest related instances can spawn without limiting the spawn to an area if they wish it to be like that.
The area can be defined in terms of the same system used for whisper, talk and shouts.
Also different roam area limits for different types/levels of creatures depending on their intelligence/something


The need for this roam area is so that a whole group wont chase across the land for instance like from pauldron isle to Galmair gates . the creatures should lose interest on the target if the target moves beyond this roam area.

This would be very helpful inc ase of treasure hunting.. currently even hunting down a small treasures requires you to slowly kill each set of creature from where you start to the place of the treasure just to be safe that no creature will follow you and over-whelm you.

And lower the spawn frequency.

and also need about 2-3 secs of "confusion" in guardians after they spawn so that chars could get ready accordingly before they are rushed.

About what Mephis suggested:
Well amnt entirely suporting a rebalance of armour. but the current situation kinda demands it if it cant be changed in other ways.


PS: the value of small treasure was on an all time time low even before this new pathfinding was introduced. some characters were leaving the maps out to rot. am sure the pathfinding has further lowered it. its not worth all the trouble sometimes. Perhaps something can be done about it. i dont want the pathfinding to be balanced toooo much however. some adjustments to the drops in small treasure would do. and may be control where the treasures can be dug up (lesser dangerous areas etc etc)

[Quinasa]

I don't like the new pathfinding at all. None of my characters are fighters, and it makes leaving town impossible. Two of my characters hate to stay in town for too long, as they feel constricted and enjoy more open spaces. I now feel that my role play has been restricted, as I can't play my characters they way they would behave.

[Fooser]

People are going to be dying a lot more often now lol

[Fiona]

Its far better now that the monsters are slower. But there are still a lot of things to be improved...

The need for this roam area is so that a whole group wont chase across the land for instance like from pauldron isle to Galmair gates . the creatures should lose interest on the target if the target moves beyond this roam area.

I agree here. It would be easier for chars who are no fighters to survive outside the towns this way.
I also like the idea about more places where there are only low lvl monsters, to give newbies a chance to lvl up their fighting skills.
And trees to climb would be perfect for Fiona

[Falyame]

Uhm, im new here but here are my cents to this topic:

I dont like the new pathfinding. And it doesnt seem that the monsters are slower now. The popoulousness of monsters in the wilderness is really high so a big mob will chase you for a long time. I know on forest ground they are much slower so you have a good chance to escape but the amount of monsters on your screen will chase you, with (no) end? Its just a matter of time till you are dead. And when I resurrect in the "Hanfschlinge" I can just see the next monster which has been blowned out by the cross and which I haven´t even yet spotted.
And there was a situation when a monster spotted me which hasnt been on my screen.

It makes no fun to log in with my character who actually lives in the woods. Well this is an individual case, I know, but this new changing removes some chance of different and interesting Roleplaying. Also for other players who wants to.

So in a way im forced to built a toon with high strenght, agillity and constitution to have a minimum chance of survival. And my character is forced to fight although it wouldn´t fit in his/ her background story.

I find the proposals of the others would really helpful and I agree with them : -
-to lower repsawn rate
-making some creatures more aggressive/ faster than "low" level creatures (good for newcomers)
- etc.

And I have 3 questions:
-What is the reason to change the monsters reactions? (To make the game more alive?)
- How does the respawn work? (Do the monsters respawn with no end so if the amount of monster kills is lower than the respawn rate the monsters adds up themselves? )
- And how does the respawn work at the "Hanfschlinge"?(Is there a respawn area for the monsters? I just see these big dinosaurs, skelletons etc. or did someone just lure them to the "Hanfschlinge"?)