Magic system thoughts...

[Pendar]

I love the idea of the poll and I did not want to derail that topic by begging a discussion in it. However Illarion has a unique opportunity to create a great, balanced magic system and no players really need suffer as now if a mage hates magic they could stat change out to being a crafter or warrior. This really is an exciting prospect as most games, not just Illarion mages become a super class and in the case of Illarion there is very little way to control how many mages exist, how powerful they become and how the effect game balance.

The focus of magician should be as much on role play as actual in game powers, being a magician gives a character so many ways to role play and often problem solve that do not exist to the average character. This alone is exciting it hardly requires being able to take out groups of warriors and solo mobs to make it even better.

A mage should never replace a warrior as the main damage dealer and killer of mobs, doing so only relegates warriors to the lowest class. This in turn leads to a lot of mage characters being played for the wrong reasons.

Further more making magicians support centric creates a need for roleplay a lone mage is not too powerful but if he has a few followers he can buff the team becomes unstoppable. This is a good thing all around and we already demand team work to kill large mobs so we would just be adding to this.

When it comes to spells we need to look at utility spells that make the mage fun to play but do not over power other characters. To this end one can even have schools or classes of magic, but thats for devs to consider.
Utility spells being things like npc invulnerability as long as the mage does not attack or perform any action. This means a mage can easily travel, follow maps, utilize the map.
Conjure weapons, which could be used or given to players, never be unarmed again.
Healing...obviously...
Buff and debuff players
Yes a mage should have a ranged attack but it should be less than an arrow, so as not to replace archers.
Yes a mage should have a close range attack but it should not be more than a good sword especially as they can still use melee attacks.

By giving the mage a range of buffs, healing spells and enemy debuffs we are creating characters who rely on other players and instantly become a good choice as leaders. Following a mage can be the difference between winning and losing.
Just some thoughts, sure I could write out a 100 spells, balance it all up and create an entire system, but thats not my role. I merely want the community and especially the decision makers within it to examine the class and decide exactly what role they want mages to have in this world. With luck it wont be the rule of feared alpha character

[Djironnyma]

The focus of magician should be as much on role play as actual in game powers, being a magician gives a character so many ways to role play and often problem solve that do not exist to the average character.

Thats the reason why playing a mage is fun even now


Indeed the poll means not that we dont want other disussions about future systems. Its just the try to give a fair and evident image of the communitys opinion. So you are welcome to spread your ideas.

Concerning mages as first or secound row fighters: i had also the idea about spells which buff a mage so he might be able to fight but disable him to cast (i.g. turn him into a raptor or whatever) so he could also have fun alone. but if we talk about spells which support the mage or other chars we need to keep in mind that it have to be unique to the alchemy system. Its no ones goal that mages are these which just cast potions effects . One nice examples would be that a mage could focus an a friendy char and cast a shild, evry hit the char get costs the mage mana but reduce the damage the protected char get. That would make mage very powerful without making them the arrogant overpowered b*tches which need no one else, as in the old system.

[Annabeth]

One thing I didn't like about the poll, was there was no option for "I want /all/ the runes to be able to be taught by both mages and npcs." It was either "all runes taught by npcs" or "Lower runes taught by npcs and the higher ones taught by mages as well as the lowers ones."
Id prefer a system where my mage, who was a teacher, could go back to teaching as she did before the VBU, but where also people could choose whether they want to take the path with less interaction and more engine aspects, or the path with teacher-student RP like before while no longer being forced to take that path just because you can't get runes/ higher runes, otherwise.
Just like it is with alchemy right now, you can either get someone to teach you it, or you can wander around gathering herbs and powder all by yourself experimenting if you prefer that.
(And when on the subject of the alchemy, I feel like mentioning that more skills should be like this where you need to think a little instead of just clicking buttons)

[Pendar]

Totally

I completely agree with what your ideas, it was also why I did not go into detail of spell ideas. I am aware I am basically an Illa newb these days. I just know from other games I have been involved in what we would do well to avoid.
It is of course easier to say than do, which is why so many games have mages trapping enemies and fireballing them to death Exciting times if we can escape that. I'll post more thoughts if I have them or as the conversation evolves.

@Annabeth:
I partially agree, I think initial runes should be very easy to get. After that the choice should exist between a very expensive route or teaching route. One place I played had a teaching system, where the teacher actually gave up their skill gain to increase the students. There was a limit on how many students and how often etc It did however create a route for people to forge a real teacher student relationship.

[GolfLima]

I dont like the idea that "high level runes" are only can recieved from a teacher. Remember the "old Illa". At the end there were not many old speaking teachers and one of my char. tried to find one. As he find a teacher and get the first runes the teacher quits - and my char couldnt finish his education ... on the other hand the number of new speaking mages exploded .... there were a lot of new speaking mage students .....

[Annabeth]

@Annabeth:
I partially agree, I think initial runes should be very easy to get. After that the choice should exist between a very expensive route or teaching route. One place I played had a teaching system, where the teacher actually gave up their skill gain to increase the students. There was a limit on how many students and how often etc It did however create a route for people to forge a real teacher student relationship.

That sounds a lot like the old magic skill system if you dont count the rune room, which some mages actually didnt use.

[Pendar]

I think I failed to communicate myself entirely properly.
Clearly we want to escape "you can only learn from a teacher route" so we are left with teaching or expensive/quests as a way to get runes.
The teaching system I mentioned was more about skills, even if runes became 100 quest/cost based if we had a system that let me go, okay my warrior is 90 skilled swords. I am going to train newbie X, my character stops gaining skills but the learner gains quicker. This would still facilitate a teacher, student rp relationship with real gain. It could apply just as much to magic skills as fighting ones.

I have no idea how one controls how or who gets runes as we have tried over the years, GM controlled interaction via a magic school (please never again), leaving it entirely to players (This failed too) Now we are considering making it an in game system anyone could do even without a players help. So I suppose the problem is to find the balance between the two?

[GolfLima]

keep in mind:
1 ) teachers have an big influence on the way a mage is played by a char
2 ) may be some players cant play // or not willing to play a mage in such a way the teachers are dictate
3 ) what should i do when i did not find a teacher? --> quit?
4 ) teachers can prohibit that a student finished his education AND becomes also a teacher

[Azuros]

I had some thoughts regarding the second question on the poll, about time of day/location and totems affecting/being needed for certain spells.

I don't know about "totems" specifically, as to me that sounds more like divine/priest magic than arcane but the idea behind it is something I had wanted to write a proposal about before. My idea was to include "component pouches".

There could be tiers of pouches that need to be in the inventory as part of the requirements to perform magic. These pouches would be crafted by various crafters, perhaps tailors, herblorists, and such. Higher tier pouches would of course need rather rare items such as pure elements while the lower tiers would need easy to find things.

I don't know how spells will be divided by skills, but I was thinking that these pouches could vary not only in skill (with high level spells needing really good pouches) but also maybe have different elemental pouches.

This would create a great need for good crafters.


Regarding the time of day/location type effects...this also seems to me more druidic/priest like, but I can see how that would enhance mage fun too.

[Annabeth]

keep in mind:
1 ) teachers have an big influence on the way a mage is played by a char
2 ) may be some players cant play // or not willing to play a mage in such a way the teachers are dictate
3 ) what should i do when i did not find a teacher? --> quit?
4 ) teachers can prohibit that a student finished his education AND becomes also a teacher

I agree. I feel there should be both teachers that are capable of teaching all runes, and npcs that for a more expensive route can teach all the same runes without exceptions on eithers capabilities.

[NirAntae]

I can't leave it at just a string of letters, although I understand the need for that format in the main thread. So here's my commentary/thoughts on the magic system poll.

I will start this by saying I actually really liked the extremely limited nature of magic in Illarion before (keeping in mind I mean a long time ago, having been gone for several years). Any time you limit something, there will be *itching and moaning that it's not fair and why does she get it and I don't, but the power, mystique and prestige it afforded those characters who did have it, added to the game imo, not detracted. Even an antagonist that you can't stand adds to the overall strength of a game. When I played last, someone throwing out a fireball in the square was surprising enough that it had a HUGE impact on a scene. If it become everyday, then it will have no more impact than someone swinging a sword, and I think the game will be the poorer for it. It was also very unique... there are very few games with any kind of a 'teaching' system and I have universally loved it when I found games that did.


That said:
[B Mages should be able to enhance / have their own craft – it can only be used by characters having a rune and therefore an actual mage.] - with the caveat that I think it should be a way to make existing items -better-, not make it harder to craft anything

[D - Combination of B and C:
B The time/place should affect the strength/hit chance of a spell.
C Powerful spells should require items.] - however I think both should be very limited in scope. That is, only a very few spells should be affected by either (unless you are using C as a method for giving aspiring crafters a way to actually do something useful instead of selling bags of combs or nails to NPCs... in that case I'd be all about C).

X - I *liked* the system of having to learn from another player (and I was one of the ones frustrated by wanting to learn!) If you really *must* have them otherwise obtainable, then I would say E (combination of B and C). [B It should be possible to get the basic runes by quests, but all runes and especially the advanced runes should be obtainable from other players.
C Runes should be bought with magical gems and/or pure elements.]

[C It should be a balanced mixture (between support skills and damage dealing spells).] Being a mage in my mind is supposed to be a whole 'way of life', not just a different method of combat (unless you want to *significantly* lower the requirement that stats be so different from every other class, or remove the 'magical' stats entirely.)

(Taking 3 and 4 in combination, if you feel you really must open up some spells to be learned without a master to teach it, it should be almost entirely 'support' type spells IMO. Narrow scope+broad accessibility=nothing special.)

[B Casting should also be possible in close combat. Mages can also hunt on their own. In the second row they are only slightly better.] - but with the understanding that this works in combination with two other factors in my mind - only *very powerful* mages should have this kind of capability, and that you should have to select different 'types' of magic at the higher end that you are good at (can still learn/teach the others, but at a penalty to cast): powerful support spells, powerful close combat spells (more protective in nature/tanking), or powerful distance spells (more damaging, but leaves the mage vulnerable). (Perhaps a good/okay/poor system, like the armor against different damage types?)

[Annabeth]

Second topic to be made for commentary. I suggest one of the forum moderators merge this with the other, then put a link in the main thread to the commentary one so we wont see too many of these popping up.

( done and done, ala Athian)

[Athian]

I took myself a look at the poll as well and found a few concepts that i did and didn't like. There are a few things that will not work well in current illarion that would have worked fine in the former one. Most those aspects are technical in nature but a few are also gameplay related.

To touch briefly on some points without major details

1. High utility mages are a bad idea. Ideally you want to prep the game for multiple 'classes'. By making the role of mage's to universal(like in former illa) you then have to go back and neuter the mage magic system in order to give the new systems unique roles. This just makes more work in the long run. Mage's should be focused around damage and CC's (things like knock-back, paralyze, slowing enemies.) and mage healing should be single target or self cast only. This leaves group buffing and party healing (etc) to future priests and bards.

2. There should be no first/second row in illarion when it comes to partying. This thinking revolves around things like fighting raid bosses but that not going to be a characters everyday occurrence. Attribute placement is generally enough to decide where a character will be standing when it comes to fighting boss monsters or large groups of enemies. We don't need secondary elements such as system restrictions to add another layer to that. Of course things like casts times for some spells should remain, but keep in mind that unlike archery, there is not automatic firing for spells.

3. Every 'class' should be able to solo up until a certain point without feeling constrained (no one manning bosses but with strategy even tough regular monsters should go down), keep in mind current illarion is much faster then the former version and character movement is much more advanced then it was before (which also pertains to monsters). If you add limitations to key factors in the system it will only make that system more cumbersome in the long run.


I've more thoughts on balance of course but they can wait until we actually start real work on a system In general we need to design a new system rather then a rehash of old concepts from before. Some of it can stay but a lot of it will have to go if we want a magic system that is going to be as enjoyable as it is unique.

[Achae Eanstray]

Continuing with "thoughts"...

I liked the system of learning by other players also even though my first mage had to wait two RL years to get all her runes between one teacher leaving and another. On the other end of the spectrum, playing a mage char I have thoroughly enjoyed the students my chars have had. It is only because this system can be subject to abuse that it is considered negative now. The idea as a whole though was good, that is I don't believe there should be a way to become "instant mage" but it should require time, fun roleplaying and have a feeling of accomplishment at the end similar to a char becoming a master craftsman.

I also like the idea of specialty mages. As an example, there aren't too many crafters that can do most everything and if so they have been around a long time. The separation of towns, work tables and resources now make it harder. Similar with fighters. Yes, maybe eventually you can be proficient in all but it will be awhile. I like the idea of mages not restricted to learning all... but it would be difficult and if specializes, it would be easier to achieve. Some may be best in healing and other people arts..others best as fighters with damage arts, maybe a few best at stealth.

The worst case scenario in my opinion is to set up magic and have to keep nerfing it..it would be best to start small and add more later depending on how it is received. Along with this is being prepared to consider priest magic and not nerf mages to make "room" for the other magic system. I still have this optimistic view MAYBE someday there will be bard magic really wanting to make a bard char however with the player base that may be pretty far down the road but perhaps save just a little of the magic until we are sure yeah or nah? In summary, when considering mage magic also consider priest and possibly bard.

[Mephistopheles]

think that warriors should be main damage dealers because mages can easily avoid being hit by teleporting away, like the annoying human mages an elven mage npcs so being able to hit very hard and being to able to move about the map like that would make mages nearly impossible to kill since you'd be dead before you'd catch him

[Athian]

NPC mages don't represent the magic system that being planned for the future, nor have they represented the magic systems of the past. Its pointless to use them as a frame of reference.

[Evie]

My thoughts..

The Rp revolving around learning magic I have to say is one of the things that hooked me to this game. The theory and history were a vital part and helped to develop my character and give her depth. It was frustrating at first finding a teacher, but highly rewarding once I did find one. That being said I tried to develop another magic character later on and could never find a teacher, resulting in that character being abandoned. Some balance I would like where we still have teachers teaching the theory of magic yet also where POs do not give up if they can not find a teacher. My initial reaction was not liking runes from npcs, though I understand it has been done in the past, yet I can see some merit in that happening now.

As far as the fighting system.. GIVE ME FIREBALLS! Just kidding . My character does like to solo hunt, would be nice to be able to do that again without expecting a visit to Cherga. Not saying solo hunting major bosses, never did that anyway.. when hunting the biggest creatures before ie dragons or drow my mages job became keeping everyone else alive while they killed the monster. Mages need enough versatitily for both roles.

[Annabeth]

My thoughts..

The Rp revolving around learning magic I have to say is one of the things that hooked me to this game. The theory and history were a vital part and helped to develop my character and give her depth. It was frustrating at first finding a teacher, but highly rewarding once I did find one.

At the time you started playing the game, teachers were pretty much just tossing runes at people compared to how difficult it was to get a teacher a while before that. The thing that's trying to be avoided now I think is the whole elitist, abusive, only teaching friends and ooc friends, kind of behavior that some teachers had. That's why some people want to just get rid of players being able to teach magic, as many people had to wait 2+ years to get a teacher, which hardly made it worth any of the history or RP you go through when learning it.
That's why I'm again gonna express that I wish for a magic system where there is the possibility to learn all runes from teachers through student-teacher RP, but also the possibility to learn all runes from quests and trade with npcs.

[Ufedhin]

Alchemy RULES!...down with magics!

[Kaspar Young]

Since magic used to be so overpowered it was the correct thing to make becoming a magician super hard (and almost like an exclusive club). If its going to be more balanced then naturally it should be easier to learn and less exclusive.

But I personally think that anything which encourages interactions with other players over right-clicking pixels by yourself is a good thing.

[GolfLima]

@Kaspar Young

These are 2 different things
1) magic was overpowered!
2) as i said before - an old speaking player has no chance to become a mage ( there were no teachers ) // on the other side the number of new speaking mages exploded and they become mages faster than i could write this post ( it wasnt hard for some char. to become a mage ) - in the last days of Gobaith i had the feeling more than half of the new speaking players were mages and as a non mage playing charakter there was no more fun in the game

-> dot mix up this two different points

[Pendar]

Also never confuse making something really hard with making it exclusive or encouraging great RP. That usually just means the player with the most time or most desire to PG, they may or may not be the most talented role player. Difficulty is no assurance of quality or exclusivity in an RP community, difficulty only means the more casual player or none pger will not bother.

[Kyre]

I am seeing some generalities here that I feel aren't substantiated beyond simply hearing it repeated, of course my char didn't use magic much in the fighting aspect so will just have to take everyone's word on the generality of it being 'overpowered".

However, since my char had two old language students, to one new language student and the ones I knew of others had some good roleplay. I knew of one or two mage that threw out runes without roleplay to many more that had as much fun as I did. Perhaps some higher up interference at the time to help stop the "bad apples" may have gotten that system on track also yet who knows with hindsight.

Getting on-topic:

I would still like to see a component of teacher/student not necessarily required but possibly make it easier this way and definitely more fun. I would also like to see some component of interview and agreement by others for a char to go beyond a first level of magic. Possibly have one level easy to obtain to satisfy new and older waiting players, and another level harder with different requirements is a thought. I feel any char has the right to have fun in game, this includes mages. To limit them to simply "group" activities can also limit the fun of some players including their roleplay if they prefer to go solo, or with one or two. As a player that also has a fighter char I don't think I would like a mage so "weak" I would have to constantly guard rather then fight either so this would go both ways.

Again, specialty mages may be the answer allowing for those to pick their desired option and not limiting chars to certain avenues but also reducing the chance for nerfing later on. Added: Please no impossible to PG mage chars which reduce the fun also.

Perhaps developing a group with devs, GM's and players that are familiar, or have possibly even played mage chars in the past and/or played them on another game to come up with definite ideas to present is the best alternative.

[GolfLima]

1 ) I like the idea of teachers .... that can be realy a lot of fun, but i dont like the idea that a teacher is the ultimate authority regarding getting new runes or develop a new mage (finally finish his education) ...may be with totally different ideas than all the other mages have
2 ) a mage-student should reach the highest level (mage / master mage / teacher) also without a teacher
3 ) mages shouldnt be "weak" but also not "overpowered" -> think this will be realy difficult
4 ) i like the idea of basic "runes" for all mages and than specialize

[Annabeth]

I might have missed it. But here goes: Have there been made any decision what will happen to those who were mages and master mages before the VBU? Will the teachers still be teachers (or maxed runed if there wont be a teaching system, depending on what is decided) or will they have to start anew? Will the skills be transferred? I kinda hate the idea of a previous master mage suddenly being 0 skill 0 runes.

[Jupiter]

I might have missed it. But here goes: Have there been made any decision what will happen to those who were mages and master mages before the VBU? Will the teachers still be teachers (or maxed runed if there wont be a teaching system, depending on what is decided) or will they have to start anew? Will the skills be transferred? I kinda hate the idea of a previous master mage suddenly being 0 skill 0 runes.

Since we haven't decided how the learning will look like, we can say nothing about this, obviosuly.

The skills are still there (even multiple security copies ). They will be in someway transferred. Nothing can be said about the how for now, since we don't even know if we will have the same amount of skills. But mages will not have to start all over again.

[Lesska]

dont have time yet for a lopng post about why the mage-stident relationship should be preserved but i will insted address the part about mages being over powered

mages are MEANT to be stupidly powerful. look up the spells "power word kill" and "finger of death" you fail a stupidly high save, you DIE. you make the save, you take a stupidly high amount of damage and possibly STILL DIE

the balance is that mages cant keep up their kiling spree indefinatly and the warrior will over time equal out their overall damage output as the mage has to whien and whimper about being outta juice.

[Mephistopheles]

I think mages should be able to write scrolls that others can use to learn a rune, and even as event rewards or something like a young "sorcerer" goes into a deep dungeon to look for a certain scroll that he can learn from. this is a fun rp idea I had before about making an independant sorcerer who collects scrolls and does his own research. anybody else like the idea of "scrolls"

[Lord Arcia]

Power word kill and FOD are two spells that pretty much sum up the power of mages. Raw damage, anyways.

Power word kill cannot be used against powerful enemies, including powerful warriors. Unless they are severely weakened. If they aren't weakend first, the mage just wasted a large amount of power in casting a spell that does "poof". Absolutely nothing.

One warrior has a pretty good chance to resist potential powerword kill. At an average of 4 hit points per level for 17 levels gives 72 hit points. Plus his constitution modifier of +3 (average) gives 51. Maximum of 123 hit points. Powerword kill doesn't do crap.

How about FOD?

FOD. If the warrior fails a Fort save, he takes 3d6 damage +1 damage per caster level...That pretty limits you to a maximum of a whopping 38 damage. Oh noes! Unless it is a heightened spell. Which means if I am not mistaken can make the spell damage up to 43. That's not even enough to make it a Fort save vs. massive damage.

Let us postulate that the average human can run 40 yards (43 meters, roughly) in about 6 seconds. 90 feet (30 meters, roughly) is going to be pretty much the maximum range for either of these spells. So in six seconds the average person can run 120 feet in six seconds. That gives this average person 30 feet of wiggle room to play with. And how long is this 30 feet in time? About 1.5 seconds of play time with this person casting a spell. From start to finish. I wonder how much playing a person can do with a sword in 1.5 seconds. How much time with a dagger?

I sure hope there isn't two warriors together.

Mages in aren't any more OP than warriors, even with those spells. They have their uses, just like anything else. And why should the GMs of illa favor one class with code over another? That only makes people who want to play warriors feel like crap and they roll up a mage. Who wants to play a game filled with mages and no challenge anyways?

We both know the better option is a widen/quickened web/slick spell at the warriors and then power word blind.

[Uhuru]

Power word kill and FOD are two spells that pretty much sum up the power of mages. Raw damage, anyways.

Power word kill cannot be used against powerful enemies, including powerful warriors. Unless they are severely weakened. If they aren't weakend first, the mage just wasted a large amount of power in casting a spell that does "poof". Absolutely nothing.

One warrior has a pretty good chance to resist potential powerword kill. At an average of 4 hit points per level for 17 levels gives 72 hit points. Plus his constitution modifier of +3 (average) gives 51. Maximum of 123 hit points. Powerword kill doesn't do crap.

How about FOD?

FOD. If the warrior fails a Fort save, he takes 3d6 damage +1 damage per caster level...That pretty limits you to a maximum of a whopping 38 damage. Oh noes! Unless it is a heightened spell. Which means if I am not mistaken can make the spell damage up to 43. That's not even enough to make it a Fort save vs. massive damage.

Let us postulate that the average human can run 40 yards (43 meters, roughly) in about 6 seconds. 90 feet (30 meters, roughly) is going to be pretty much the maximum range for either of these spells. So in six seconds the average person can run 120 feet in six seconds. That gives this average person 30 feet of wiggle room to play with. And how long is this 30 feet in time? About 1.5 seconds of play time with this person casting a spell. From start to finish. I wonder how much playing a person can do with a sword in 1.5 seconds. How much time with a dagger?

I sure hope there isn't two warriors together.

Mages in aren't any more OP than warriors, even with those spells. They have their uses, just like anything else. And why should the GMs of illa favor one class with code over another? That only makes people who want to play warriors feel like crap and they roll up a mage. Who wants to play a game filled with mages and no challenge anyways?

We both know the better option is a widen/quickened web/slick spell at the warriors and then power word blind.

Feeling really stupid right now, but I have no idea what you are talking about. Can anyone translate this into Illarion-ese?