Lyrenzia dosent want your Opinions

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Sun May 18, 2003 1:15 pm

Maybe tomorrow I'll ask the town the vote on "The Foreign Trade Policy" or "The Statutory Parole System" or the "Repeated Offender Policy"

I suppose the fact that nobody knows the details of these proposals don't really matter, just as those people who complained about not having in on the decision of town walls didn't have anything to look at in the first place to know the details of what they would be deciding.

I find it less useful to ask people how they want something without first letting them know the details what one of the options could result in, and without finding out what's possible and effective to build and what isn't. I think the UCA wouldn't be very happy if their 100 ingots were spent on some wall without knowing what it would be like. I'm rather glad that we are getting some experiments and samples to look at.

The fact that there were plans for a town wall was mentioned long ago already since the beginning of Lyreniza. Somehow I'm not surprised that almost nobody gave any input about it this whole time until now that there is some construction to look at.

If anyone doubts that plans for a town wall was mentioned long ago before, feel free to ask me and I'll find the parchments for proof.

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Sun May 18, 2003 1:18 pm

Caranthir, you are right, Not once has Lyrenzia called it's self a government, but, it acts like it, placing non members in jail, or sending them into exile after charges have been made by other non members, I quote from Lyrenzia castle "Welcome to Lyrenzia Castle, office of political and diplomatic affairs." that sounds very much like a government like thing to say. According to your pathetic out of date Registered Citizens list, Cain Freemont, someone you say has a grudge against Lyrenzia, is in fact a member of Lyrenzia. You said "Most of the people in Lyrenzia have been living in the town for ages, longer than you or most of the current ihabitants anyways. " and your point is? They have been living in town longer so that makes them better? They have been living in town longer so that gives them more rights? They have been living in town longer, means nothing, I have been alive longer than most of the towns inhabitants, does that make me better? No it does not.

Mishrack, you said "Moathia, do ye even know what a council is?"
Yes I do, actually, then you said "It is a gathering of representatives who well... represent the people" Yes that is correct, that is what a council is supposed to do, that is not what Lyrenzia is doing though, They built town walls without telling anyone not in Lyrenzia untill after it was built, Korwin says the builders done it with out proper permission, well, go find the builders and tell them to take it down, and get permission. They are representing, their guilds best interests, not the people, as the people never put them in power! You then said "Well then, go ahead and elect someone to the council who shares your views... " According to Lyrenzia, I do not exist, how am I supposed to vote someone in? Also, I have seen no way to even vote someone into the council yet, there have been no elections, so before you go on to say I should vote someone in Mishrack, make sure it is possible first.

"It is not just some people who proclaimed themselves rulers of all... it is a coalition of all the major guilds of trollsbane, aswell as some individuals. The members of all the guilds alone are a very significant part of the entire population of our fair isle, but that has ofcourse never even crossed your minhd, im sure." I think these guild members represent about a quater of Trollsbane's population, from your out dated list of Citizens the member to non member ratio is I think about 58-50 if I include Feips and Niniane, who are in the SMACC council, now if you were to update that, and included everyone, you would find your members heavly outnumbered.

"Even if you thought that everysingle one of the ancient and revered guilds are evil and out to rob you of your view of what freedom is, you still fail to see the obvious point that you can elect other people into the council to represent you."
I do not think the ancient and most revered guilds are out to rob me, because none of these guilds are either anceint or reveried world wide, these are small recent guilds if you compare them to the world, I would maybe call three of your guilds old, but not ancient, unless they have been operating on this island for hundreds of years. And no I can't vote someone in to represent me, because there has never been an election for me to do so!

Elaralith, I have great respect for you, but before you preech to me about law and order, think about how many of Lyrenzia's laws you have broken, I'm pretty sure under Lyernzia, about four or five people, can have you charge and either put in jail, or have you exiled perhaps you should get charge Elaralith, for your crimes and then lets see how Just you call Lyernzia. So take your own advice Elaralith, and think before you speak.

Korwin, get the builders to take down the walls, if they done so with out permision, though you are contredicting Dyluck in saying that the builders done it with out telling anyone after he said
"Dear Citizen

Due to the last and earlier attacks from evil creatures on our town, Lyrenzia Foundation has decided for the wellfare of our town to bring forward plans of a city wall.
First constructions have been made.

We plead all citizens, which care for the wellfare of our town, to donate for this city wall at one of the councilors of Lyrenzia."

Sounds like he authorised it, to me, so perhaps Dyluck told them to start working with out telling the rest of the council?

Over all I see a lack of comunication between, councilers, between other councilers, due to contradictions being made by them, between councilers, and their members because they don't seem to know whats going on, between Mishrack and his brain, by telling me, that I should vote someone into the council, when according to Lyrenzia, I do not exist,
and the fact that there has never been an opertunity to vote someone into the main council. Perhaps you should all get together, and discuss this lack of comunication and perhaps clear a few things up.

Moathia,
Priestess of Elara

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » Sun May 18, 2003 1:22 pm

For you lazy people that wanna know what he said......
Might not be 100% correct translated but it's better then nothing

Lennier wrote:Im Grunde hat es Adano schon gesagt gehabt. Die ersten Mitglieder des Lyrenzia-Rates waren sich einig eine Stadtmauer zu bauen und haben es als ihr 1. grosses Ziel angesehen, so die Stadt und ihre Bürger zu unterstützen. Wie auch immer dieser Beschluss gefasst wurde, er ist bindend für alle Mitglieder der Lyrenzia. So wie das Ergebnis jeder anderen Abstimmung/Diskussion auch, kann man seine Meinung sagen und versuchen diese innerhalb Lyrenzias durchzusetzen. Gelingt dies nicht, so hat man sich dennoch an den Beschlüssen der Vereinigung zu halten, in der man ja Mitglied ist.
Die Autorität die also Lyrenzia inne hat, ist die gegenüber ihren Mitgliedern.

Crosis ist in Lyrenzia der Vertreter seiner Gruppe (Hobbiteers/The Evergreen Halflings) und Vertreter der Lyrenzia ansich. Von daher hätte er, meiner Meinung nach, versuchen können das Projekt "Stadtmauer" innerhalb einer Diskussion in Lyrenzia zu kippen. Aber, es ist meiner Meinung nach der falschen Weg gewesen, nachdem die eigene Position in Lyrenzia nicht durchgesetzt werden konnte, eine unsinnige Petition in der Öffentlichkeit zu beginnen, die gegen den Beschluss der Lyrenzia gerichtet ist. Als Repräsentant Lyrenzias hat er nach aussen hin die Meinung der Vereinigung zu vertreten, nicht seine eigene, die der Position Lyrenzias entgegengestellt sein könnte.

Das ist eigentlich das, was ich sagen wollte....

Lennier,
noble knight and trademaster of the Grey Rose,
member of the SMACC Council.

In the reason,that Adano already said. The first members of the Lyrenzia advice were to be constructed and were to be looked at themselves united a city wall it as its 1st large goal to support so the city and its citizens. How also always this decision was grasped, it is binding for all members of the Lyrenzia. So like the result of each other voting discussion also, can say and try one its opinion to put through this within Lyrenzias. This does not succeed, one has himself nevertheless at the decisions of the union to hold, in which one is yes member. The authority that therefore Lyrenzia in has, is that vis-à-vis its members.

Crosis is in Lyrenzia of the representatives of its group (Hobbiteers/The Evergreen Halflings) and representative of the Lyrenzia ansich. Of therefore, it, my opinion would have after, try can disconnected the project "city wall" within a discussion in Lyrenzia to. But, it was my opinion after the incorrect way after the characteristic position could not be put through in Lyrenzia to begin an absurd petition in the public, that is arranged against the decision of the Lyrenzia. As a representative Lyrenzias, it has not outward the opinion of the union to represented, its characteristic that could be opposed the position Lyrenzias.

That is what I wanted to say...

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Sun May 18, 2003 1:51 pm

I dont recall saying the things you said I did, Mothia.
What you quoted was from an official Lyrenzia parchment.

As with what Korwin said, Lyrenzia didn't specific order design of town walls to be built,. As the parchment read, it says we are moving forward with plans for building walls, and so now we have some construction examples to analyze. As I said, almost nobody gave any input until they saw construction, so you can see its impact and the after-the-fact opinions of people.

Some other things you are mistaken about and should be aware of:

-Being in the list of Registered Citizens doesn't make them a member of the Lyrenzia Foundation.
-How to get on the list of Registered Citizens is clearly written out. It isn't our fault if you don't bother to register in order to get your voting rights.
-If "everyone" was included into our little "outdated" list? then we would also have to add and accept the vote of anyone who lived here for one day or anyone who decided to forge multiple new names or other names. If you think about it, you should see there's a logical reason for the conditions of being Registered Citizens, if you ever bothered to read them at all.
-It is not true that there was never an opportunity to vote someone into the main council. The Public Election System is outlined in big huge letters and the first election was one week ago.

Before you go criticizing Lyreniza, it would be appreciated it if you first made sure you understood how it works.

Rosa Underhill · Post by **Rosa Underhill** » Sun May 18, 2003 2:29 pm

-Being in the list of Registered Citizens doesn't make them a member of the Lyrenzia Foundation.
Dyluck, if you read your list, then you will note that Cain IS a member, as you can see from your pretty pink writing, I put Niniane, and Fieps, as members becuase they have been put in the SMACC council, that is all, if you do not count them as members, then members to non members on your list 56 members, to 52 non mebers.

-How to get on the list of Registered Citizens is clearly written out. It isn't our fault if you don't bother to register in order to get your voting rights.
It doesn't say anywhere you have to register, your conditions say. "Existance has been proven by a Councillor (representitive) of the Lyrenzia Foundation (Verified by a Lyrenzia Councillor to exist in-game)
Has lived in Troll's Bane for at least 4 months as proven by their name on the town walls (Has a matching board account name that has existed for at least 4 months)" It says you have to find a counciler, I have talked to at least three since this started.

I think I fit both of these, because I have been around for four months, and I know 5 of the councilers, persoanlly, Dyluck, so I think that is enough.

-If "everyone" was included into our little "outdated" list? then we would also have to add and accept the vote of anyone who lived here for one day or anyone who decided to forge multiple new names or other names. If you think about it, you should see there's a logical reason for the conditions of being Registered Citizens, if you ever bothered to read them at all.
The fact that existance has to be proved by, knowing a counciler, nulifies your point here Dyluck write down all the names of the citezins all your counciler know, and have met, and see, who is real, and not just people using an alias.

-It is not true that there was never an opportunity to vote someone into the main council. The Public Election System is outlined in big huge letters and the first election was one week ago.
I saw Elections for the SMACC council, Dyluck, not for the main one, also according to your castle, no one represents the free peoples of Trollsbane, those who are not members of Lyrenzia guilds, surley the staffof your castle, and the parchments written there, would be correct, if someone had been voted in from the free people to the main castle.

Dyluck, don't say that I don't understand what your doing because I see what you do not want others to see.

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Sun May 18, 2003 2:30 pm

(( Curses, I didn't realise I was still logged in as Rosa, everyone that was from Moathia not Rosa, so think of it that way

))

Caranthir the great · Post by **Caranthir the great** » Sun May 18, 2003 3:23 pm

Moathia, as priestess of Elara, you should realize that merely talking to a concilor is not enough, unless the councilor is able to read your mind and therefore knows what you want.
If you would have brought that subject up during a conversation, then things would be different.

and your point is? They have been living in town longer so that makes them better? They have been living in town longer so that gives them more rights? They have been living in town longer, means nothing

Yes but you are making a fuss about your town and not our town, I was simply pointing out that most of the older inhabitants have a lot more claim to the town than you could possibly have. Perhaps you are right, perhaps not, but think about it, why should YOU have more right?

to your pathetic out of date Registered Citizens list, Cain Freemont, someone you say has a grudge against Lyrenzia, is in fact a member of Lyrenzia.

Your point is? The fact that he is a member, only mean that he is member in organisationg that is part-taking Lyrenzia. It does not mean that he would accept everything without a question, we do not except that, but THERE IS a limit when questioning and paranoia becomes first ridiculous, then annoying and finally angering.

Dyluck, don't say that I don't understand what your doing because I see what you do not want others to see.

Or then you see spooks where you want to see them, thats what I suspect.
Clearly you do not understand.

Adano Eles · Post by **Adano Eles** » Sun May 18, 2003 3:34 pm

The election for the public representatives had to be cancelled because no canditates were elected. This is surely not Lyrenzias fault. A lot of people complain that they would not be heared. We want to hear them, but it seems they do not want to be heard at all. It is sad to see that people complain about faults of others but when given the chance to show how to make it better refuse to take this chance. As Lyrenzia can not change its rules everytime something went wrong because of the failure of others the elections will not be repeated. The next elections are in three months.

Adano Eles

Knight of the Grey Rose
Student of the Khana Len; Apprentice of the Great Temple of the Five and Eleven

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Sun May 18, 2003 4:49 pm

Caranthir
It never said I have to tell them, they merley have to acknowledge the fact that I exist and be able to see me, not that I have to tell them I want to become registered.

I am not making a fuss about my town, as you put it, I am making a fuss about the non mebers and the people who want nothing to do with Lyrenzia, I am making a fuss about their town, they do not want town walls, but now they have to live with it thanks to Lyernzia, they don't want to be exiled because they were attacked, defended themselves, and then the attacker makes up a lie to Lyrenzia and gets them exiled, right now, that has not happened, yet I think, but, I am sure it will happen soon enough. People that have been in town longer than I have have a larger claim to the town than myself? I said before I am older than many of the islands inhabitants, does that mean, I have more claim to live than them? Does it mean, if I walked over to a human and took some of his freshly baked bread and told him, "I am older than you, therfore have a greater right to life than you, so I'll take all this to help me live." Is that fair? No it's not, if any of you go to the southern continent, and I told them to do this and that because, I was born their, is that fair? No it's not, so please stop using the, I have been here longer than you, so this is more mine than yours argument, because it should not be a vaild point in this matter.

Perhaps Cain has a reason to go against Lyrenzia, perhaps, they have done somthing to anger him? Did you think of that?

Caranthir, walls were built with out Lyrenzia's permission, perhaps you should exile the builders, they probally broke, a law or somthing by doing that, what is amazing is that, in the days between the north and east walls being built, and the south wall being built, Lyernzia done absolutly nothing to tell them, not to build anymore, that sounds like Lyrenzia accidently on pourpose, didn't stop the builders for doing anymore work Lyernzia has been changing their stories about this wall, I just hope your fiannly telling the truth in the matter.

Adano, I after going through the archives found somthing about an election into the main council, behind a diffrent title, perhaps if they had made the title, "Candidates for the Lyrenzia head council, put your suggestions here" Would have been more apropriate.

Moathia

Caranthir the great · Post by **Caranthir the great** » Sun May 18, 2003 5:22 pm

I just hope your fiannly telling the truth in the matter.

What truth? We have told you the thruth. But I suppose that you wont be satisfied until you hear something that you want to hear.

and then the attacker makes up a lie to Lyrenzia and gets them exiled, right now, that has not happened, yet I think, but, I am sure it will happen soon enough.

What makes you think that? Nevermind reasoning, alright, I'll play along. Lets suppose that this would happen, you would rightfully defend yourself, and somehow they would manage to cheat the system and you would get exiled. You forget one things however, thanks to Lyrenzia, you would not be beheaded by angry friends of the liar, only exiled. Hey, life is overrated anyways, isn't it? (if they would behead you, they would be brought to justice.)

So instead of single mind, there are more people judging all testimonies and charges (and hopefully there will be more in future). Ovbiously you seem to think that one mind works better than than more, but I nevermind that. You propably have a good reason to believe so.

I always thought that you just reached the elven adulthood, wasn't that so, Moathia? It depends on what perspective you view the sitiuation, ten years for a human could be concidered as fivehundred for an elf. However one thing does not change, we have been living here for longer. No matter how you twist and turn it. I did not say that we should have any more power than you, but you seem to want more than us. Would that be fair?

What exactly is your problem with Lyrenzia? That we do something, or that we don't do something? Afraid? Disagree with the laws that are there just to keep peace and guarantee safety for everyone?
Apparently you are so paranoid about a group of people deciding (after accusation) wether you should be trialed or not, that you fail to see that we do the same that everyone else is doing when upholding the laws. Three differences, we do it better, we do not execut people and we listen testimonies of others regarding the matter.

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Sun May 18, 2003 6:24 pm

It is very hippocritical, Caranthir, that you say I want more power than people who have been here longer, when I never said that, and that your guild joined, and you personaly, if you want somthing done to town, you just have to get a group of your freinds to agree with you in the council, and it will get done, with out the need to consult the genral public of Trollsbane, you talk like you do because you are in the council, yet you do not put yourself in the position of a normal person in Trollsbane, How would you feel, if you woke up one morning, and found a huge ugly wall surrounding it, and you had not been told, that it was being done. Would you feel happy? I doubt it, you would feel angry, so before your council starts telling the people whats best for them, have a public vote, and find out what the majority wants, not just the people, who have been here for a long time! I am not power hungry, if I wanted to take over Trollsbane, I could have had a few thousand elven warriors occupying the town a few weeks ago, so before you start going on about me wanting power, think about this. I am the last survivor, of a powerful nobel elven house from the southern lands, I fled due to fear of assasination, by one of the other houses, I only just recently, disbanded the servants, except the soldiers of whom, I sent two thousand north to help the war against a lich, and the rest to get ready to head east to help there. If I really wanted to, I could have brought them all onto Trollsbane, and taken control by force, I do not want power, I have been doing everything to avoid having real power over people. So Caranthir, stop saying I want more power than other people, when I could more than easliy take it!

Moathia Nethiala
Priestess of Elara

Caranthir the great · Post by **Caranthir the great** » Sun May 18, 2003 6:48 pm

One thing that never should be argued is taste. You say that the wall is 'ugly'. I wonder what you except? It's not supposed to be beauty for the eye (even though beuty is in the eye of beholder). I say: It serves it's purpose. What do you expect the wall to be like? A hedge perhaps? I assure you, if hedge would be sufficent to keep Drakhen's hordes at bay, we would have built the wall from hedges. How would I feel if I woke up one day and suddenly found a wall (ugly?) standing there? Secure. I would been propably very thankful. Luckily some people place public safety before estetics. We take all proposals about the walls into concideration, but because of the lack of builders and the builder lack of skill these plans, how good they would be, cannot be realized at this time.
How about, exchange the wall to the elven warriors? Few thousand of them should be sufficent to replace the wall. Í can't promise anything from my fellow concilmen, but I would certainly vote 'yes'.

Caranthir,
Bowing infront the omnipotent, yet merciful Moathia.

Fieps · Post by **Fieps** » Sun May 18, 2003 7:31 pm

If we wouldn´t have a democratic system like Lyrenzia, would be surely the next step that somebody come and proclaim a dictatorship.

And then and there nobody will have something to say or can start votes, petitions or similar things against the decisions from this dictatorship.

You all should consider/accept how progressive/modern Lyrenzia is, the most countries in our century have complete other kinds of regimes.

And if Lyrenzia breaks down is it only a matter of time when folks will arrive and declare a monarchy. So we can not any longer live in "our" well-known anarchy, if we want to prohibit this.

_________________
Fieps

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Sun May 18, 2003 7:44 pm

Alas, Caranthir, the warriors are protecting the world from a greater threat than Drakhen, perhaps in the future, if they survive. Did you ever think about what will happen after Drakhen has been defeated? Will we need a wall then? Will it have a purpose? I don't think so, would it have been worth the hundred of ingots? Perhaps, but a moat with a wooden stockade, that can be put up, and taken down, when it needs to be, would have been more suitable. Don't you think?

Moathia
Priestess of Elara.

Caranthir the great · Post by **Caranthir the great** » Sun May 18, 2003 7:53 pm

No, I am afraid no. Because past experience has shown us that Drakhen controls vast amounts of Demons, that are creatures of Fire. If you have had experiences with those terrible beasts, they burn easily even the moist logs, which would be under this wave of heat impossible to find or maintain.

Who knows when Drakhen will be defeated? I think that we should not think that far, I am more concerned of how the defense of our town is tomorrow, and will it be sufficent to guarantee peace to our town or not.

That is the meaning of our wall, and by our I mean the town as whole, not just Lyrenzia.

-Caranthir.

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Sun May 18, 2003 8:01 pm

I have had experinces with Demons, and yes they may be able burn down logs with ease, though surley a moat would stop them, because if you think Caranthir, a worm could dig under the foundations of the wall, and cause it to collapse on the defenders, killing many of them, and letting the enemys pour into town. or how about, if he spiders climb over the wall, and come down on the defenders, when they are not expecting it, Caranthir, there are many ways, the wall can be taken, espcially with an enemy as smart as Drakhen.

Caranthir the great · Post by **Caranthir the great** » Sun May 18, 2003 8:17 pm

That is not quite as easy, if the wall is built properly it can't be collapsed by digging under it if good grout is used, because on correctly built wall the weight is equally dividided to the wall and the grout prevents the stoneblocks from loosening up and by that way collapsing. A dwarven wall has NEVER collapsed to the fact that someone has dig a bit ground under it.

Perhaps spiders could climb over the wall, yes. However they are most vulnerabe when they reach the top of the wall, making them perfect target for our archers and mages. The wall, in its current unfinished state, is not perfect. I admit that. However, we are making progress all the time. The more support or help we get, the faster the wall will be ready and the more excellent it will become.

With kind regards,
Caranthir.

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Sun May 18, 2003 8:21 pm

And what if the worms, dig all the ground away from, under the wall, it can't stand with nothing to support it.

Caranthir the great · Post by **Caranthir the great** » Sun May 18, 2003 8:28 pm

This threat may be eliminated by building supporting stone beams on the town side of the wall, and the wall has been built about three feet underground. That would mean that the worms would take a week in leas to dig around from area that wouldn't form immediate bottleneck for the attackers. That time they would be more or less disturbed and threatened by our mages, such as you. Which would without a doubt make their digging a living hell.

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Sun May 18, 2003 10:20 pm

One problem, Lyrenzia is far from a democracy

Fieps · Post by **Fieps** » Sun May 18, 2003 10:28 pm

Do you think so? Why?

Then explain us all what is democracy? What signalise democracy? How many forms of democracy exist?

One main point is always:"division of powers" and Lyrenzia have fulfilled it.

Don´t make big words without any proofs.

_____________
Fieps

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Mon May 19, 2003 11:28 am

Rosa Underhill wrote:-Being in the list of Registered Citizens doesn't make them a member of the Lyrenzia Foundation.
Dyluck, if you read your list, then you will note that Cain IS a member, as you can see from your pretty pink writing, I put Niniane, and Fieps, as members becuase they have been put in the SMACC council, that is all, if you do not count them as members, then members to non members on your list 56 members, to 52 non mebers.

You pointed out yourself the ratio difference you saw in the list, so obviously just being on that list doesn't just make someone a member of the Lyrennzia Foundation, which was what I said.
Whatever was your point of bringing Cain up, it still doesn't make what I said untrue.

Rosa Underhill wrote: -How to get on the list of Registered Citizens is clearly written out. It isn't our fault if you don't bother to register in order to get your voting rights.
It doesn't say anywhere you have to register, your conditions say. "Existance has been proven by a Councillor (representitive) of the Lyrenzia Foundation (Verified by a Lyrenzia Councillor to exist in-game)
Has lived in Troll's Bane for at least 4 months as proven by their name on the town walls (Has a matching board account name that has existed for at least 4 months)" It says you have to find a counciler, I have talked to at least three since this started.

You've talked to three councilors since.. 9 days since you became eligible to register...and how many out of these three councilors did you ask them to register you? Or are you expecting us to have psychic powers?

Rosa Underhill wrote: -If "everyone" was included into our little "outdated" list? then we would also have to add and accept the vote of anyone who lived here for one day or anyone who decided to forge multiple new names or other names. If you think about it, you should see there's a logical reason for the conditions of being Registered Citizens, if you ever bothered to read them at all.
The fact that existance has to be proved by, knowing a counciler, nulifies your point here Dyluck write down all the names of the citezins all your counciler know, and have met, and see, who is real, and not just people using an alias.

I don't see what your point is. You complain that the list is outdated because it doesn't include "everyone" and so I explained why "everyone" isn't included on this list and that the registration conditions are already filtering those who aren't real, so I don't get what is that you're asking for that we aren't already doing.

Rosa Underhill wrote: -It is not true that there was never an opportunity to vote someone into the main council. The Public Election System is outlined in big huge letters and the first election was one week ago.
I saw Elections for the SMACC council, Dyluck, not for the main one, also according to your castle, no one represents the free peoples of Trollsbane, those who are not members of Lyrenzia guilds, surley the staffof your castle, and the parchments written there, would be correct, if someone had been voted in from the free people to the main castle.

Adano, I after going through the archives found somthing about an election into the main council, behind a diffrent title, perhaps if they had made the title, "Candidates for the Lyrenzia head council, put your suggestions here" Would have been more apropriate.

Again, you're blaming other people for your own mistakes and carelessness. You're the one that calls it the "main council" or the "head council" It isn't other people's fault if the words "Public Election" didn't seem worth your time to look at.

Before you argue about something someone said, please make sure that they actually said it in the first place. And please don't expect us to have psychic powers and blame us when you refuse to read and pay attention to announcements.

Rosa Underhill wrote: Dyluck, don't say that I don't understand what your doing because I see what you do not want others to see.

Which is specifically.... .... ....?

Now about the walls, you probably missed the post I made right before you came the second time.

Dyluck wrote: Maybe tomorrow I'll ask the town the vote on "The Foreign Trade Policy" or "The Statutory Parole System" or the "Repeated Offender Policy"

I suppose the fact that nobody knows the details of these proposals don't really matter, just as those people who complained about not having in on the decision of town walls didn't have anything to look at in the first place to know the details of what they would be deciding.

I find it less useful to ask people how they want something without first letting them know the details what one of the options could result in, and without finding out what's possible and effective to build and what isn't. I think the UCA wouldn't be very happy if their 100 ingots were spent on some wall without knowing what it would be like. I'm rather glad that we are getting some experiments and samples to look at.

The fact that there were plans for a town wall was mentioned long ago already since the beginning of Lyreniza. Somehow I'm not surprised that almost nobody gave any input about it this whole time until now that there is some construction to look at.

If anyone doubts that plans for a town wall was mentioned long ago before, feel free to ask me and I'll find the parchments for proof.

It was also already said that the walls around right now are only the first experiments and not the final product to stay, but I guess you probably didn't bother pay attention to that while continually complaining to have walls removed.

Somehow it seems less useful to ask people if they want something without giving them a better idea of what they were getting, and knowing what was possible in the first place.
Somehow I've noticed that this construction has generated so much more useful discussion and is so much more informative while working with actual conveniently manipulated construction to see what things would be like in reality instead of looking at drawings. But I guess there's no pleasing certain people around here who just like to complain.

The enemy could come any day now. Maybe a moat is useful, but digging up a moat would take longer, more manpower, more money to pay workers, and more difficult to reverse, than bringing in wall pieces which could be transported and manipulated easily. Maybe if we had more time for the moat, but for some reason this briliant idea never came up until now. I wonder why I'm not surprised that some people don't share their ideas until someone else starts to do something, which they then complain about even though they never thought enough about the issue to have or share their idea and then they complain about the other idea that got them to pay attention to the issue.

And I'm rather afraid if anything about the moat goes wrong, certain people will come wailing and whining about the moat, which would be more difficult to change than walls.

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Mon May 19, 2003 4:33 pm

Lyrenzia is just a lousy attempt to spread democracy in this clearly undemocratic world.

Instigation
Political corruption
Imposed morals
Unneeded quarrels
This is what I call...
HOME!!