Becoming Evil

[Logrin Parr]

I'm all about this topic. Posting my awesome take on it.


Design a -conflict character- and maybe contact a few friends on the forums to do the same. That is to say someone who's goals or world view directly oppose that of another. Anyone can just PG till they can't be chuckled off by older players, than cut the occassional swath through the workshops--but something like a group of briggands or orcish horde will enrich illa as a whole.

With Khaeros, I played plenty of these. ((It was easier given that they had seperate nations, rather than towns and a large player base.)) One of them was racist, vain, entitled and quite frankly ((and sucessfully)) genocidal. Which led to him being a (disliked) yet famed War Hero in his homeland--and a feared and hated monster abroad.

Having come back to illarion I made another of these. A Gynkeesh mercenary by the name of Quajac. If anyone's rp'd with him they'll tell you that he's all manner of unpleasant--but definately sensible and with clear goals. He dislikes the law, but does his best to stay clear of it. Money motivates him--and though not above stealing he'll pay for something if its less of a hassal.

The possiblities are mind-boggling. You could start an elven supremisist group out of Tol Vanima, a group of Mercenaries that hang around Bane looking for work and demoralizing the guards ((Whilest not breaking any major laws)) Or heck, even just a bunch of Orcs or Bandits that hang out in the wilds and charge tolls at bridges or mines. The important thing is to make sure you've laid out the ground work for who they are beyond just -bad-

I.E.

*Bandits and highwaymen have the goal of wealth, may enjoy violence and typically eschew the laws of city life. Thusly they band together and rob decent law abiding folk when they are most vulnerable.

Elven Supremisists would have an extreme bias towards non-elves. Ranging anywhere from snide remarks to violently ejecting trespassers from Tol Vanima. You could even go so far as to make it a guild or focus their hate on a single group of non-elves. Humans for example

ETC.

Just talking about the possibilities makes me want to MAKE or JOIN something along these lines....though I'm tempted to hold off till the VBU...

So on that note I'm off to brainstorm.

[Kyre]

Sounds like fun!


Though I would caution it may only be fun to the group and not to the other player or "victims" It takes a certain kind of roleplay to make it fun for both.

[Nalzaxx]

Ah this old chestnut. The reason this always ends up failing is for two simple facts;

The game is set up so that we have to try and play together.
Evil characters are designed to play against others.

If we ever want to see evil and conflict survive in any kind of constructive way ingame we have to understand that the first fact is nonsense. It is not the players job to ensure the good times and fun of the other players, only their own. This is simple human nature and trying to enforce this is never going to work. This is exactly the reason why people moan about evil characters not considering the fun of other players, and in the same breath don't consider that it's no fun for the evil players to let their characters be a simple foil to the good guys. Instead what we need to do is understand that conflict, and competing against other characters (and by extension players) can be conducted in a fun and productive manner. This needs changes on a technical and systematic level. Trying to change the attitude of players or the community is a lost cause and so instead we have to create a system, rather than a set of rules, that encourages the sort of play we want.

I got tired of playing my characters, and running the Temple for the simple reason that unless you're in a position of enormous strength over your rivals then the risks of your actions are simply not worth the reward. Having some fun with a bit of conflict simply isn't worth the risk of having your character destroyed, your items stripped, your organisation disbanded, your land taken and your time spent with such things completely wasted. A character like Verdazar required years of investment into his character, his skills and his organisation. We got up some decent strength and started a heated conflict with the Bearers. It was good for a time, until I realized that there was simply nothing to gain from it and everything to loose. They invaded Bane (as they are free to do) and there was no reason to fight them. Bane provided no advantage to us whatsoever and was simply a trophy. The risk of defending it was a loss of skill or items, or even characters themselves, things which take years of work and devotion to aquire. I also realized that if we were to win, we would essentially be doing the same to the Bearers. The only way to gain an advantage in the conflict was to deprive them of skill or items or even characters. It became evident that it wasn't a conflict about the world or the story it was simply a struggle to stop the other side playing.

Had there been some safeguards in place to protect too severe a loss of investment, and some more tangible advantages to have been gained from the conflict, I've no doubt it would be continuing to make interesting stories even now. As it stands I simply lost the motivation to play. There's a new story formulated and new characters made, ready to charge blazing into the world of Illarion and spread darkness upon its lands. But honestly, why should anyone bother when they can just create a neutral character and play it safe?

[Pendar]

The biggest problem with this topic is one word, the word being evil. Outside of psychopaths and demon possessed end game bosses, neither of which make very good character concepts. Most people do not believe themselves evil, they have a hosts of beliefs but they ultimately believe they are justified in their actions.
A dictator, dictates rules because he honestly believes he is making a better society. An inquisitor burns witches because he really believes they are evil incarnate. A bandit robs because he loves gold and lacks skills to make money through societies accepted means.

As soon as one sets out to be evil it limits RP as the evil character must bring pain, suffering, death etc all of which translates straight into winners and losers and clouds. A templar who hates mages will still be able to create rp through charity, protecting the meek, teaching the newbies and apposing politicians. All the while still being loathsome and contemptible in the eyes of magicians, pacifists and every one who has a magic using friend. However the scope for role play will be so much larger than a demon possessed mad man. A knight with beliefs will gather friends, prove his worth and then his exile for murdering a mage will create role play on so many levels and actually have an impact on the game. A one dimensional killer or a character who drinks babies blood is only going to polarize the game world a few supporters, who may be labeled griefers or trouble makers and the rest. Make a character than deserves to exist and brings in a lot of varied and different role play into the world and explore ways to go against the accepted grain and the world will often reward that. Make a killer who only sends people to the cross and the game will not mourn your exile, absence or res killing.

All the best parts of this game when I played actively were when strong characters stood at opposite ends.
Bloodskulls vs Town = The orks were not evil, they were a proud tribe struggling against human oppression and most of them were fantastic to play with or against. Kaja, Gorge, Gurik etc had real depth and were more than just characters out to pvp oomies and it showed.

Trollsbane VS Varshikar = Two towns working their own agenda and nearly coming to war, made awesome by the fact it was about political power not just fighting.

Pendar VS Rothman = A change of guard and politics one man thought he could lead better than the man in power and both had earned a following in game.

This list goes on but each one has a central theme a memorable adversary who was epic to RP with as an enemy or as a friend if I switched character. This game does not owe us an easy ride, this game should not have winners or losers the RP we put in should be great enough to merit our own characters existence. It should also be strong enough we can support our own characters cause. As soon as one goes to an evil extreme the relatively friendly and light hearted nature of Illarion in comparison to other worlds will become our worst enemy. Just my 02

[Kugar]

Since the beginning of time, no matter who you are or where you are, the world as we know it along with every faery-tale ever written has held a certain group of morals that determine the difference between good and evil.

It is true that not everyone who is perceived by others as being 'evil' see themselves as being evil. It can be a complex subject. However, it is also true (or can at least be argued) that there are some who enjoy the idea and feed off it. Put simply: It makes them feel good being evil. Some people eat to make themselves feel good, some people masturbate and I put it to you that the argument that people inflict pain on others because it makes them feel good is a relevant one. Unless one is mentally deranged or deluded they know exactly what they are doing.

Say someone was severely bullied or beaten in their youth, to such an extent that as time went on, this victim, who was forsaken by society fell into a spiral of self hatred, depression and a skewed perception, ultimately growing into an adult and harbouring a blatant hatred for the world and all it's living creatures. It isn't ludicrous to imagine that this person does not care about their morals, what happens to them or any one else. Perhaps to see others suffer gives said person a certain satisfaction and even lustful desire. With calculated actions and complete lack of morals mixed with intention to cause pain toward others, in my opinion, is certainly a degree of evil.

The problem we face is that evil is frowned upon in the Illarion society because it simply hasn't been done right or people haven't joined in. It needs to be well thought out and interesting with a certain charisma otherwise it just dissolves and you have to declare your character mentally disturbed or something. If someone makes a character that just gets really strong and kills everyone, sure, they can be evil, but this is dumb and boring. If you pk another player with no reason to back it up it's against the rules as should be the previous. To pull off an evil villain you have to do so with careful and intelligent consideration. Get people interested in their story by writing about it in the rp forum. A story about how the evil began. If you get enough people gripped they will join in.

Probably the best time for something like this would be after the VBU with gm intervention. I hope at least someone can pull it off one day and people play along.

[Athian]

I do in part agree with the whole Intelligent evil but I find that it is hardly ever matched with intelligent good. I ran a small player quest awhile ago in which a specialize poison, which was actually by-product from a magical experiment was to be spread as the forerunner to a larger quest. I allowed people to make up the symptoms of the poisoning, and let them assume that the conditions were all temporary. I posted long winded and RPG forum story portions so that people could follow the story indirectly even. I recall doing just about everything i could the accommodate other players

The general lack of interest was pretty disheartening to begin with. Going back to the old Illarion concept of "If it doesn't hurt ignore it.". There are other times in the past to when I've watched player attempt villainous quests, stories etc only to be ignored if they aren't powerful or have powerful friends who will come around and do some kind of tangible harm to other players. That's is one problem 'evil' has always had, people will ignore it if it doesn't have a certain degree of true danger. Rather then acting a part more often players must be motivated to act. That motivation sadly has often been destruction and or mass pk'ing.

As to my quest, I allowed a few players to get a hold of some of the substance and fount that they almost all lost interest when it wasn't possible to and i quote several PM's The " take this to (insert Famous Druid/Alchemist/mage etc) to find out what it is?". I did give hints, going so far as to even describe some of the actual contents in the vials recovered so that curious players could investigate bits of the plot while they waited for the next mini-event. Sadly because it wasn't something that could be instantly discovered interest fell off before any true quest part could be arranged. Personally I blame the timing, as i did this during an illa low period in which the players that were around were generally...less about wide scale RP and more about life-Sim style playing..

What i learned mostly from this particular event is that smart or savvy evil player plots don't go over well in illarion because many players want instant gratification on both sides. There are a majority of people in general who don't want to think, don't want to wait and don't want to plot. They want everything face front right now. I've seen actual Official quests over the years treated the same, players become frustrated when they can't have their cake right away and it has led to complaints and forum flame wars in the past. For a regular player to do any sort of long term thought out evil is easily several times harder without the tools GM's use to gain attention from players.

Smart, patient, elaborate 'evil' in essence needs to be met with smart, patient,intelligent good; but most often the good is anything but that, thus the evil side also follows the trends of instant and action. If you don't have balance on both sides then most 'evil' players will simply be viewed as an annoyance who is interrupting the regular players carefree existence. And then we go right back to the former as stated above "If it doesn't hurt ignore it." and people start making others lose their items in order to gain the desired effect of 'evil'... a true illarion vicious cycle

[Morbius]

Smart, patient, elaborate 'evil' in essence needs to be met with smart, patient,intelligent good.

I've played as both good and evil characters of varying degrees, and this sentence pretty much sums it up for me. No matter how incredible a role player you might be, or how impressive you make your quests, it will always take two willing, open minded players to role play the interaction of good and evil. Most of the time people are just afraid to lose their l33t skillz, rare items. Hopefully this kind of thing will be dealt with in the VBU, and make this kind of role play easier in the future.