The Language of the Game

[Achae Eanstray]

I would like your opinion on some things as far as language in game. I realize Illarion is a medieval game and to accentuate the authenticity of medieval times, some slang words are discouraged, other language is in fact against the game rules http://illarion.org/illarion/us_rules_2.php#language.

Without mentioning any char or player, give your ideas of what the language should be? As an example, I cringe seeing an "OK" written thinking they wouldn't have said that "shortened" word those times. I realize some like more authenticity then others however, so would like your feedback.

[Aeeriss]

I've seen some characters say "sup", and I think that's even worse. I'm all for authenticity.

[Po Will]

Language game wise is fickle, to say the least. When you're an Orc player, you have to apply the dumb dumb talk due to the tusks, but for some reason it carries on even whence you're speaking in their native race tongue, I always found that funny once I started thinking 'bout it

As for the wording we use, and the way we have our 'normal' talking Chars talk. I try and give my chars an accent. Most started off with the usual speaking English, then after a few years on the Island, they get kinda hill billy, at least in common. A chars native race should be pure and unfeckled in me own eyes

"Oh, you know what I mean lad? "
Becomes -
"Och, ye ken wha'd a' mean laddie? "

That sorta thing.
As for the cutting of words and whatnot down, it annoys the living ficklesticks outt'a me. Honestly, hi? HI? I know we ain't RP'ing a proper bloody time period. But there be trolls, and there be castles, and you're going to say hi, sup? I'mma facepalming all the while

PS: If a GM ever finds fault with how my chars happen to be speaking, or community managers. By all means, pull me up on it

[Qeewee]

I cringe seeing an "OK" written thinking they wouldn't have said that "shortened" word those times.

I always imagine them talking like a chimp "ook ook"

Anyways, I think people should try to think medieval as in when to use "cool" and when not to, and otherwise just follow the dictionary.

Rules in my opinion: Follow the rules of the game, don't use words like "OK", "cool"(unless you mean cold), "Taco" and such.

Though, as a last note: It's a fantasy world in a medieval time setting, everything shouldn't be strictly as it was in our medieval time as it's not the real world or real world history based (Magic, races, etc could have had a big effect on language)

EDIT: Just read Wills post, agree on the "sup" part and mostly the "hi" part, other than child characters as I find it normal even then for children to say "hi" and not "hello"

[The Returner]

After ten years, its finally nice to see someone supporting my view of "OK"

[S'rrt]

"My man!" somewhere in a sentence.
Yeah. I've seen it. Obviously it shouldn't be encouraged.

Ssay what ya will but I really likess a certain lizard'ss dialect. Whatcha dunno iss that I don't even care if ya recognize 'im.

[The Returner]

"My Man" could work in a sentence, as it could be a paraphrase of "My good man" however, if an illagirl says "aint no way you touchin my man" then, theres a problem

[Mr. Cromwell]

"k","fu","wtf","Geschwindigkeitsbegrenzung", etc.

[The Returner]

Err...speed limit? did I read that right?

[Mr. Cromwell]

Err...speed limit? did I read that right?

Yeah, that was shorthand for "anything in german longer than 12 letters in a single word" -> insta ban.

[Achae Eanstray]

At first I thought it was strange how some chars said "Be Greeted" as if I was suppose to greet them , yet I was told "Greetings" versus saying "Hello" was more medieval. Lately have had mixed feelings about that word. What are your opinions on "hello" as far as the medieval times?

(( and Crommy, you need to get back ig! ))

[The Returner]

It depends. There has been disccusion before on illarion and medievil. Illarion is a fantasy-medievil setting, so either greetings or hello works.

Hello wouldn't have been used by most catholic/christian societies from the age of christianity through to the late 1800's when it first appears in books. Simply because any compound word with "Hell" in it, would be a very negative thing to say.

"Hail" is the most appropiate in terms of real timescale greets. Greetings or Be Greeted comes from fantasy stuff like tolkien. "Well Met" would be used after an initial greeting.

EDIT: Not to re-nitpick, but on the subject. Remember illarion is a game, and a fantasy game, ment for fun. So things like "Okay" "lol" "wot" "sup" and the like are indeed bad, but also things like "Hello" and using modern versions of other statements should not be tightly enforced, as if illarion was to stick to the roots of a divergent timespan game, set in the "storybook" mythos of say pre-1700s Germany or England, it would be ridiculously hard to play.

[Dyluck]

My Man > Hello > Hi > Okay > OK > Cool > Sup

Anything below Okay is definitely not right.
Okay and higher is still acceptable in a fantasy setting, since I think they're not so modern to the point that they didn't exist until the last 100 years or something.

Nothing wrong with "My Man" if taken objectively by itself, but I can kinda see how you could hear it sounding like a modern slang greeting.

[The Returner]

Okay is the modern malgamation of O.K

The first known use of O.K was in the late 1700's iirc. The etymology is heavily debated, between it being shorthand for "Oll Korrect" and some other crap im not willing to google, since thats what I take it to mean.

Therefore fundamentally allowing "Okay" but not the original recorded "O.K" would not be fair, either both or none should be accepted logically, don't you agree Dy? :/

[Dyluck]

In terms of just language convention, OK is to Okay or Oll Korrect or whatever, just like WTH is to What the hell. I rate it lower because it's just an abbreviation you can type but your character should be saying actual words.

[The Returner]

Not in convention, but invention. In the case of O.K, O.K was the first known usage. Thus the abbreviation came first. In the case of What the Hell, all of the words were established before the abbreviation. Thats why O.K is special in english language, nobody quite knows how it began, but everyone knows where it began, on some rich guys shipment invoice in the form of lit "O.K"

So when we type or write "Okay" we're not actually using the word proper, "Okay" is the slang in the case. Saying "Okay is O.K because Okay is a word." is illiteral. Thats why I think the whole kit and kaboodle should be banned outright, seeing as how nobody quite knows the literal meaning, its not used in any historical sense before the late 1700's, and it is avoided by most, if not all, fantasy literature writers.

[Pugnacious]

I think you all are nit picking this to death.
I really don't care if someone says OK, or Okay Or My man or any other form you all are bitching about. I care if the other I am RPing with is in the moment, trying to RP back. I care to have someone, and these days, anyone there to RP with.
If they are quoting a rap song then yes, that bothers me. If they are just trying to be part of this game, then I can overlook an out of time reference. Sure the game is richer when someone puts the extra effort into how they talk. Honestly, I have more trouble trying to RP with a native german speaking player than someone that doesn't use the proper english, and I still enjoy my time with the german player. So why can't I enjoy my time with the , mostly new player that doesn't speak 1300 or later english?I learned to change the way my characters spoke by how others did, it takes IG time. Give them a break.

[Dyluck]

It doesn't matter if OK came before Okay. In a practical use of modern english, Okay is now considered a more formal word than OK which will always just be two letters acting as an abbreviation, even if someday society decides it will stand for the word Okalydokaly.

[The Returner]

It doesn't matter if OK came before Okay. In a practical use of modern english, Okay is now considered a more formal word than OK which will always just be two letters acting as an abbreviation, even if someday society decides it will stand for the word Okalydokaly.

By which source? According to every possible etymologist whose even spoken on the subject, O.K, Okay, and Ok are accepted variations and there is not one considered more formal. If you allow Okay, you have to allow every other spelling of the word, period, otherwise its not fair in a lingual sense. Unless you can provide me something written by a reputeable source, like, websters, harvard, oxford et al that says specifically "Okay" is the only word spelling that should be accepted as a formal word over every other spelling of the word.

[Rhianna Morgan]

I personally think that "okay", no matter how it is written, is not a good word to use IG. Why is it so problematic to just use "alright" or something like that, something that sounds less modern than "okay"?

Just my two cents on that part of the discussion.

[Raina Narethil]

As much as this game is set in the time period you have to be careful here. it is already hard enough to communicate with some do to the German, English languages.

you start talking in in true old English or German then you will be adding more separation in game. because trying to translate this as an example:

Och, ye ken wha'd a' mean laddie? = this Och, wha'd ye ken ein "bedeuten Bürschchen? if quickly run through the translator to take part in the Rp.

Not picking on the po or po's who do try to speak in game correctly just trying to help make it simpler to for all to enjoy the game.

just my two silvers

po Raina.

[The Returner]

I personally think that "okay", no matter how it is written, is not a good word to use IG. Why is it so problematic to just use "alright" or something like that, something that sounds less modern than "okay"?

Just my two cents on that part of the discussion.

I don't view it as a modernization issue, theres plenty of "modern" words im fine with in Illarion and fantasy literature. But I look at it as a slang issue. Authors in the genre of fantasy writing do not use "Okay" in any form, unless its a really poorly written book or novella. Thus, nor should we.

As much as this game is set in the time period you have to be careful here. it is already hard enough to communicate with some do to the German, English languages.

you start talking in in true old English or German then you will be adding more separation in game. because trying to translate this as an example:

Och, ye ken wha'd a' mean laddie? = this Och, wha'd ye ken ein "bedeuten Bürschchen? if quickly run through the translator to take part in the Rp.

Not picking on the po or po's who do try to speak in game correctly just trying to help make it simpler to for all to enjoy the game.

just my two silvers

po Raina.

This is a great point. I have played several period specific MUDS back in the day, where you'd have to speak in era-appropo language, enforced. Doing that in illarion, will, as I've said, make it very difficult to play.

[Fooser]

We need a big list of all german and english words that existed before the year 1400 A.D. That list should be published on the main Illarion web site. If someone uses a word not on that list then they get 1 warning. Three warnings and they get banned.

[Achae Eanstray]

I had no intention of starting this thread in order to condemn or pick on any player in game, particularly new players just getting a feel for Illarion. It was more of a "would enjoy the RP more without the distraction of...". Hopefully players may eventually get the feel of the medieval times with their roleplaying by the example of older players. I definitely hope no one interrupts oocly players to discuss the "language of the times" understanding that can be very upsetting for new players. This is more of a "would enjoy seeing" rather then "has to do" type thread i.e.the rule link posted earlier covers the "has to do"

What do you think of "goodbye", "bye", versus "farewell"?


(And Fooser, all I can say is *gasps*)

[Po Will]

Och, ye ken wha'd a' mean laddie? = this Och, wha'd ye ken ein "bedeuten Bürschchen? if quickly run through the translator to take part in the Rp.

By all means, if someone is having a hard time understanding a PO, or PO's. They're free to say so, lords know even some of the other Orc PO's asked me to do clearer Orc talk

There's making the game easier to understand, then there's dumbing it down.
Anytime Sere was around a German PO, I always tried to speak in plain English, simply to help them out at that point.

So again, sure we can have people speaking clearer English, but when only when that person needs it so.


As for the bye, farewell thing.
Keep safe is the one I'm using at the moment, seems fine enough aye?

[The Returner]

Goodbye is malgamation of Godbew'ye which in itself is a contraction of "God be with you"

Modern goodbye was first used in the 1700s. Godbew'ye was in wide use in at least the mid to late 1500's.

Farewell, the first use I think in literature was between 990 and 1050.

Either works really, I don't mind goodbye vs farewell.

[TiaSarah]

By all means, if someone is having a hard time understanding a PO, or PO's. They're free to say so, lords know even some of the other Orc PO's asked me to do clearer Orc talk

There's making the game easier to understand, then there's dumbing it down.
Anytime Sere was around a German PO, I always tried to speak in plain English, simply to help them out at that point.

[/quote]

Agreed, if you can't understand someone, say so. These people are supposed to have come from different places, so there are going to be communication issues from time to time. I think it makes the game a little more realistic. It's also helpful if the char keeps a cute little elfess around who enjoys translating for him To Achae's question: I think "goodbye" works just as well as "farewell". I'm not as fond of "bye" but it's definitely better than "later(s)".

[ThisGuy]

It doesn't matter if OK came before Okay. In a practical use of modern english, Okay is now considered a more formal word than OK which will always just be two letters acting as an abbreviation, even if someday society decides it will stand for the word Okalydokaly.

I think the point was to use things that aren't modern...and as Returner said O.K came first, but neither are in the very dynamic(ask any 2 people you'll get atleast 2 different answers) time period in which Illarion is set. before you start on whether a word is period apropriate, seems like there should be a decision on an actual period. I've seen 3 different years mentioned in this thread, and all were before current version of Modern English we use was ever around(though its called Modern English its only used to discern from Old and Middle English, and has been used since the 1500's). if any of the years mentioned are actually the setting for Illarion, nothing we'd say in game would be period apropriate.

[Rhianna Morgan]

Bye/Goodbye/Farewell:

I use different ones for each char, but f.e. Agrimur will always say *Tanora on your paths* or Alan will always say *May the love of Sirani shine over you/May Sirani shine over you and protect you* etc.

I think the three above work as well, but they are little creative ^^. Depends on your char I presume.

[David Turner]

The problem with trying to use period specific slang is that nobody understands it or recognizes it for what it is. The "O.K." example is perfect because it is viewed by many as "modern" even though it is older than some of the other words in this very sentence. Being understood is important, trying to keep in the spirit of the setting is important, but we currently don't have any clear cut way to figure out what is "modern slang" and what is not. And without some slang that is modernly used our options are the extremely high-brow sounding things ("Greetings", "Godspeed", etc.) or what one person has already described as "talking like a hillbilly". For an average city dwelling character, neither of those work. For your average druidic elf who doesn't want to put on airs but still uses proper grammer, neither of those work. I would go so far as to say that for most characters, neither of those options work (high-brow slang, or hillbilly talk). The result is a LOT of characters who don't use any slang at all, and that just doesn't seem realistic either.

So then before we talk about the bad slang we should try to focus on what would be good slang. If for no other reason than that it is easier to get someone to stop using the bad slang if you give them something else to use rather than if you tell them "NO!" and just leave them hanging with nothing.