The overall roleplay and pitfalls.

[Ereaes]

This is going to be my perspective, and as it is on the game itself, and not off topic, i believe it should be here. Feel free to leave any remarks, criticisms or otherwise (if a CM or GM does not feel the need to delete or lock it.)

Concerning RP: I am set aback, by not only the lack of RP, but the RP put in being not only sub-par but completely ridiculous. Keep in mind i am not speaking for everyone out there, i have rped with a few VERY good rpers, they are the only reason i still play. But the majority of RP i see, is shoddy at best. If someone emotes toward your char, DO NOT PRETEND NOTHING HAPPENED!!!!! I mean honestly, someone throws a dagger at you, or attempt to slap you, or attempts to trip you or any number of things (so long as its not forced) RP WITH IT!!! Run with it. For those of you that do run with it, you cannot always come out on top, someone attempts to smack you, sure, block, dodge, duck, or maybe for once get a glancing blow, or hell, actually get HIT! Your chars are not gods(No matter how much you PGed the crap out of them.)
Also, the language, we are based in a medieval fantasy realm, even still i don't think they said "Cool." Or "Woot." or any number of jargon i have been hearing. Im not saying walk around talking like a Shakespearean character, or a knight in Le Morte D' Arthur. I'm saying follow your common sense.

Concerning purely PG chars: If you want a purely powerful char simply for the fact that you want one. Go play runescape. Go play WOW, go play something that better suits your needs as a PGing PO. Don't only show up in a crowded place to pick a fight, or because there is a quest. Actually learn to RP. And no matter how big your egos may get in tune with your char, your char isnt a god. Im sorry, you want a god char, contact a gm and get shot down.
If you do PG, throw in some RP, i am going to state a name of a particular char who I FEEL has a good mix of the two, hell, ill state two (Its a compliment. And you two are the best that i can think of that help my point) The char Leon, and the char Idrandal. Not only have they gained a fine skill set, but they are also GREAT RPers.

Concerning what i like to call "Runners": If you are in a situation that you have no hopes of winning, or rping a solution with another char, then it is fine to run, i don't blame you. BUT STOP COMING BACK!! Honestly you are not helping the RP at all, all you are doing now is killing the atmosphere of the game and cheapening everyone's fun.
((And as we are supposed to act as our chars would, hence 'role playing' i believe that sometimes an rp solution cannot be met. Especially when one of the parties in question refuses to acknowledge an Emote. For example: (i can state from personal experience) If you are a criminal char and you continue coming into town, seeing one of the guards, or lawful chars, and they give chase because your banned. There may be no rp solution (save something like tying up the offender or what not). Some of the chars will rp with you and attempt to make a solution, but it does not always work.)) STOP RUNNING IN CIRCLES AROUND TOWN. Either RP or go out and use the time to train, or visit another place in the game.

Concerning non-emoters: If you say....attack someone....have the courtesy to emote the attack before running to Ctrl-click. I don't mean emote then wait a minute, go right ahead, just make sure you emote first. Also, for those MANY of you that enjoy Pushing without emoting, last i remember there was something about that against the rules....you may have to double check me on that one though. Have a heart, emote.


There are more than likely many more things i can add, but that this moment i think this will suffice. Again, leave anything, even if you think i am some whacked out crazy person with no life(......dont look at me! ), leave something, even if you think im completely wrong, leave something. This was more or less to let out a couple of things that have been annoying me for a while, and also to get your feedback on them.

[Achae Eanstray]

I can understand someone accidentally missing a "thrusts the dagger" on particular roleplay that there is more then a few people and a lot going on at the time. I have definitely done it and thank the person that is kind enough to repeat the emote . Without mentioning any names or chars it might be nice if players pointed out their idea of good roleplay.....am not talking of rule breakers as such because a gm should be notified in that case i.e. non-emote before an attack is against the rules http://illarion.org/illarion/us_rules_2.php#pkilling. What do you look for in roleplay? More questions, how lenient are you as far as mistakes in roleplay, are YOU easy to roleplay with?

PS "You" is the general player and not one particular in that sense btw

In my opinion and others may deny, the first and foremost rule is YOUR CHAR IS NOT YOU. It just seems to me if that is intrinsically understood..some of the rest will fall in line.


An interesting article that may be relevant to the original post: http://openrpg.wrathof.com/faq1/How_to_ ... Roleplayer

I had to insert this one also and wish to share my philosophy... as long as you try to roleplay, be it "good" or not there is chance for improvement. I know some that I LOVE their roleplay but think also you can put too much emphasis on what is "good" and not enjoy the game. I hope people arrive at a balance i.e. yes, make an effort but don't be discouraged if it sometimes falls short. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/article ... oleplayers

[Monty]

Also, the language, we are based in a medieval fantasy realm, even still i don't think they said "Cool." Or "Woot." or any number of jargon i have been hearing. Im not saying walk around talking like a Shakespearean character, or a knight in Le Morte D' Arthur. I'm saying follow your common sense.

Agreed, although I have to add that I've met say around 25 people so long and met no one who used that kind of nerd-language. What I'd personally like to see more is cursing, yes, cursing. I constantly try to remind myself that most Chars start off as peasants (just like myself) and are in fact not Shakespeare. The walls of ancient cities were found full of rumors and cursing words, it's probably a wrong illustration of history that the common people behaved better than today. So, if you get wounded, curse. If your Char needs to urinate (and you like playing that out, of course) do so somewhere. If your depot is full of trash, trash it just somewhere in the street or rp tossing it into the river.

STOP RUNNING IN CIRCLES AROUND TOWN. Either RP or go out and use the time to train, or visit another place in the game.

Pretty annoying yes, but also a good old guard game. You'll never be able to talk sense into all those 'runners', so people should think about how to get them. Ranged weapons or a very harsh treatment, maybe? It is called KOS, after all.. so.

Concerning non-emoters: If you say....attack someone....have the courtesy to emote the attack before running to Ctrl-click. I don't mean emote then wait a minute, go right ahead, just make sure you emote first. Also, for those MANY of you that enjoy Pushing without emoting, last i remember there was something about that against the rules....you may have to double check me on that one though. Have a heart, emote.

As long as the other part doesn't abuse it, agreed. This discussion is also as old as this (or any) game. I'd say, it alway depends on the situation. A strict rule like "you always have to emote before you start an attack" is on the one hand so strict it us useless and on the other hand can be interpreted in so many ways that it becomes a wishy-washy thing. For example the question, how long does the emote has to come before the actual attack? Three examples of what I personally thing is fine:

1.) Person A and person B get into a fight over a sausage in tavern. Person A draws his sword, person B also. They continue arguing, person B is sick of it at some point and decides to attack. Person B should give person A the possibility to see the attack coming, since they are standing just in front of each other! A simple '#me attacks him' and ctrl+click half a second later is not fine. A '#me gets really angry and gets into an attack stance', followed by '#me begins the attack' should be alright here. This gives both the players the opportunity to target each other, which would actually have happened in real life too... just without the red circle around you. Most of the time, when someone with a sword rushes at you, you'll also want to hit back. If not, you can still not target the other guy and emote that you are only block the blows, or cry "YIELD".

2.) Person A is holding a bow at robber B. Person A has emoted '#me has strained the bow, ready to shoot' and told robber B "Move one more step towards me and I release the arrow." Robber B doesn't care and moves closer to person A. In this situation, person A should be free to just ctrl+click robber B once he is moving (towards him).
The essence of this: Both parties knew what would happen if the one or other acted in one or the other way, and the advantage of a ranged weapon is screwed if you have to write emotes until your target reaches you, which, if it was wanted, could just result in deleting all ranged weapons from the game for reasons of uselessness.

3.) Guard A sees runner/bugger B in town, the fourth time today, when bugger B was already clouded in the morning and still returns to town all the time. B has the status 'KOS' and knows so well. Guard A stepts towards B, emotes '#me draws and attacks' and ctrl+clicks. B has not enough time to run and dies. B goes to the general board and cries over bad roleplay (I'm getting carried away here, sorry... ).


What I wanted to show with the examples: Think about what is fair for your counterpart to know and what not! The emotes are necessary because the game engine doesn't show everything, so we have to use the '#mes' to make people know. Nowadays you at least see when people hold a weapon and when they are attacking, there was a time you wouldn't even know who just sniped you dead in a crowd! Still, emotes appear to be an issue. So, use them in order to the reason of their very existance: To show the other players what your character is doing, in real/game time.

[Nomos]

When it comes to enforcing RP and game lore (something I 100% agree with) it really is challenging from a GM perspective. In essence yes it’s easy, pop in game, beam player to GM castle, explain reason, give alternative ideas/play style/alter/change and then return them to original environment. Simples... no.

Whilst this is indeed a genuine role playing game, the level and quality of RP has to be judged case by case. After all, not all players understand, are of the same age, maturity or game experience. Too lenient and the player does not learn, too harsh and complaints fly out that your elitist or unfair/picking on noobs, etc.

Now most of it can be put down to common sense but peoples common sense varies as much as there are shades of white. Also there is the issue of admonishing or upholding RP/lore when a rule has not been broken. For example, tiny-tiny little chars. There is no rule against them, the engine lets you create them, some players make them that small accidentally others accidentally-on-purpose. I think they ruin the atmosphere and racial lore but no game rule has been broken.

Then there is the balance of keeping players not driving them away, which, if too strict on rules does so, if too lenient drives off the older more RP related players.
Can I also throw in the judgment of piers and staff all with their own opinions and judgment? Not necessarily a bad thing as all rule breaks, cases and appeals go to a vote.
So, what is the point of this post, to say that while -I- agree with all that has been said and seen of late (and would like to be more enforcing of it) it is one hell of a balancing act trying to keep everyone happy, players in the game and staying fair to all.

I would like to say don’t forget that you the players can within reason, help, guide and educate new and older players in the way of the game and lore. It never hurts to give a little OOC to question, ask or challenge an action or behaviour. If this leads to problems !GM or Email us and keep a game log.

[Vitoria]

I agree with Nomos here.
And please keep in mind that most of our players are still young and I do think it is a real challange for them to rp in a good way.
The best thing for the old players and the one who think that they can rp in a good proper way, the only thing I can say here is, please be patient and try IG to show the others how to rp correctly.
Yes it will take time and yes you may have to show them more then once how a good rp looks like and yes some of them are very annoying
Ignoring them is not making it better!

In past I have seen by myself that even the good rpers are ignoring IG some new chars or the one with a bad rp, and I have notice that lot`s of the chars IG are like an exclusive clique just hang around together the whole time, always the same people in small groups and not everyone is welcome or can join.
Some of the old players expect really much from the new one or younger one, most of the "good rpers" dont have, to be honest, patient anymore.
And maybe that`s the reason why some chars acting so pushy, they just want to join you and get your attention!! yeahh....
How anyone can learn anything if no one shows " how", and with showing I dont mean like saying IG, " OCC (( hey you cant do that! No thats bad rp! hey stop attacking me like that!))"
no one can read other minds!

My opinion is, stop writing in the forum how it could be done better or asking yourself the "why`s and finding some answers which you wont find or get.
Go IG and if you want to change something, take it like a challenge and just do it! Change it!

for (maybe ) the better understanding for some of you, let me write it in these famous words:

"When a Jedi behaves badly in public, an observer might think, 'If this Jedi is a representative of the whole Order, then plainly no Jedi is worth respect.
' On meeting a second Jedi, who behaves better than the first, that same person might think, 'Does this say that half the Jedi are good, and half bad?
' On meeting a third Jedi, who behaves as well as the second, the person thinks, 'Was the first Jedi an exception, then?' In this way, only by the good behavior of several Jedi can the public be certain that the poor behavior of one Jedi was unusual.
Thus, it takes many Jedi to undo the mistakes of one.

It is not necessary to always strike the first blow, to provide the first solution, or to reach a goal before anyone else does. In fact, it is sometimes vital to strike the last blow, to give the final answer, or to arrive after everyone else."

You must learn, young Padawan!

[Skull'Fed]

I'm not saying this discussion is pointless or anything but, I shall tell you the story of Bob:

You see, Bob was a powergamer, and he loved the game, to the point where he played 12 hours a day pging like a madman. At that time the gm\s hated Bob for pging in such a manner. So they started summoning stuff to ghost him. Bob knew logging out was no option(because he could get banned), and he barely survived the 6-8 gm\s summonings of demon warriors, super bees, spiders and other stuff. Bob's char barely survived all the attacks, and that is what made the gm\s even angrier. If Bob did not complain over such a matter, why would you complain over a less serious one?

Send a message at "1-800 I don't like Bob" if you care.

On a more serious note, if someone does all that ig, talk to him oocly about it, I am sure he's not that unreasonable. If he still does the same thing after you tell him, go talk to a gm.
About gods and pging and all that, when I am ig I like to think my character has abilities and powers from his attributes, skills and knowledge. So if a demon was to posses Skull in a quest, he'd be dead meat. But if somebody came to my warrior trying an rp move like "#me tries to hit him over the head with a shovel." He could dodge if he saw it coming on time, but if he got hit from behind, then he would fall like a log.

[Ereaes]

In response to monty, forgive me, perhaps i should have stated what i meant in a more clear manner. I was speaking to the people that don't emote, AT ALL. Just last night a char walked up to another char and started attacking, no emote, no nothing. And this particular char has been playing for at least a month. (No offense meant to the new players. But after 2 weeks of playing you should at least have the basics down. This involves not attacking randomly.) I make my chars curse, though i prefer to change the cussing from the norm to something more colorful "Ogre humper" or the like. The runners, i remember a long time ago the runners did what they did now, but also remember, that was back in the time where you could cross someone after two hits, so it wasnt much of a problem, now it is, even with a bow and arrows, its hard to catch them.

OH! I also have to add, it comes with the language, associating things with now days. I remember back...oh gods...way back when, on Christmas a dwarf with a white beard came around handing presents, THAT WAS FINE!!!! It was simply a bit of fun thanks to the Gms. But about....3 months ago a char went on to explain to my char and another about the winter solstice and how a man went around handing out presents to children and the like, i think she even called him by name. I was literally face palming behind my computer screen.

ALSO!
Thought emoters- WE CANNOT READ YOUR MIND, DONT EMOTE IT. Let me explain, the other day someone emoted this "Stands infront of the ******* expecting a song" (I bleeped the race to protect the char in question). Now, this char never spoke to the char she wanted a song from, she simply stood infront of him and emoted that. I was being a smartass, so i emoted this "looks to the woman standing before the halfling, presumably just to stand there as reading thoughts are not his forte." That is exactly what i mean. If your char is confused you can emote "has a confused expression on thier face." For simple and easily expressed emotions, thats fine. But if you do this "Watches the man. Clearly annoyed by his arrogance." Then your typing something we CANNOT KNOW!!! Just emote "Watches the man. Clearly annoyed." How hard was that? Emote what you look like, your expressions, not your thoughts or deepest desires. Our chars cannot read your thoughts!


((im sorry. SHOW THE NEW PLAYERS HOW TO ACT!!??? I have been doing that for years. And a few of them actually turn around, MOST DON'T. And my entire premise was not that the Bad rp was from NEW PLAYERS!!!! It was an overall.))

Edit: With the turnover rate in this game, if you have been here for over a year, you SHOULD know how to act, and rp at least to a certain degree. And yes blaaa blaa blaa no one shows them blaa blaa blaa, thats actually amusing because i have seen new players pop up and older players giving them weapons, armor, instruction and the like. You people are basing your assumptions on the faulty reasoning that EVERY char wont help new players....statistically impossible. I ask you, rather, to base it on this. Illa is not for everyone, some people simply never get into the groove of it, no matter how they are helped and taught.

[Vitoria]

This topic is about bad rp and not complaining about GM´s.
I dont see that you have posted any of ideas how you could build up a better rp IG.
Everyone should try to keep the game running by rp-ing togehter and creating a fun and good and joyful atmosphere with others.
Fact is: if everyone would just pg for their own where is the roleplay?
Where is the rp when someone is standing in the middel of the woods pg all alone and not talking for days, weeks with others? And maybe, just a though , maybe bob should have take the hint by a GM to stop pg-ing soo much in futur
Please, for everyone here, contact a Gm or a CM or use the chat, if you feel treated bad or had trouble in past.

This topic is about bad rp IG and how we could manage it to make it better.

[Vitoria]

you simple can`t change things by telling and mournig about all the same old , familiar, stuff, by telling even more stories or writing or showing us more stupidly rp, we had LOTS of this topic before,you wont change it that way, we all know about the lack of good rp, just talking about is simple not doing it. It is like it is, we all have to TRY it , every day after day.
And yes I do think you are a bit of right by saying :"Illa is not for everyone, some people simply never get into the groove of it, no matter how they are helped and taught."
And for the record , no one ever said NO ONE is ever helping. Its actually not really helpful to hand a new char lots of weapons and other stuff, it would be better to show him the way how he could earn some money to buy himself alone all the good stuff.

simple solution ( yeah I know, its not that simple): YOU try your best, try to be a role model, try to teach, try to show, if its not working, at least , you have tried.
If someone is breaking the rules --->contact a GM or CM that`s what they here for to handle such things!

[Ereaes]

*facepalms*

As i stated, at the very beginning of this topic, these were my point of views that i would like out side perspectives on. Bitching and moaning does nothing, you are absolutely right, which may be the reason why i posted things in a manner in which i said what may and may not be appropriate. I don't recall ever saying "There is bad rp. Quite shameful really. Here are many example of said shameful rp. And im mad about it.", i think it went more on the lines of "This is what i have seen, here is how i think one should resolve said bad rp. Or simply not do it to begin with. Here are people who even found balance of making their chars powerful, and are yet, still GREAT rpers."<Quick question does that sound to anyone else like "They are leading by example, i posted it so that others may take notice".

This isnt some idle Complaint thread, it was what i have seen, showing people what they may not want to do, and asking for further input on the matter in its entirety, including help and suggestions from other players.

Do i expect things to change over night? Gods no. This was more or less a brain feeding session in which i could see where others stood on the topics i brought up.
Im truly happy that Nomos posted what he thought. As well as Monty. And im still waiting on your too Achae!

On a side note, i am going to say this. If i had not applied IG help to those who were breaking rules, or those who needed a little help in their rp, i WOULD NOT be posting any of this.(I don't believe in venting even a little without first attempting to tackle the problem. This thread is helping me get more ideas with which to do more of that) Thanks for the productive feed back.

[Vitoria]

Its a great thing you care about a good rp ig , and a great thing you tried and good you posted it and that you want to hear some different opinions.
I just have been IG for some couple of hours and its really scary to see how much OCC players are using this days , for everything. I think that ruins a nice rp.

But i do still think that solving that topic you can solve it best IG and its something the players alone can change, not a CM or GM can, even if they try all the time and they do what they can.
And even for GMs´its frustrating, taking time and making a quest and you will always find players mourn in the forum about it what could have been done better.
And still the GMs go on with making quest for all those who are still around keeping the spirit of illarion alive. And so we players should go on try to show others how good rp looks like.

[TiaSarah]

I agree this is something that could be solved IG, but what about when that fails? I RP with Ereaes on a regular basis, and he really does make an effort. He tries to lead by example (actually trying to teach someone to fight, or tending to wounds, or RPing after being sent to the cross, etc) and he does set a strong example. When that fails, I have seen him take the char aside and offer a quick suggestion OOC. He really does care about the atmosphere IG and I know that it frustrates him when people ruin it. I also know he does not want to run to a CM or GM every time someone refuses to step up, it really shouldn't be necessary to do so anyway.

I think we can all use this thread as a learning experience, looking at examples given and suggesting alternatives. It's really just silly things sometimes, like emoting something with speech and not using quotations. ex:[ #me smiles greetings friend.] wouldn't that be easier to understand like this? [#me smiles "Greetings friend."] The issue of emoting before attacking is always there, but so is responding to such emotes. ex:
[Woman slaps man across the face.
Man obviously dodged that since he is master in that art]

That is something I actually witnessed IG. I understand that the slap might be borderline forced RP, but did it really deserve that sort of response? How about [Man catches her wrist, leaning his head back out of her reach.] or simply [Man leans back, easily dodging the strike.] Our chars have no way of knowing how good at something your char is, so it's never obvious.

I seem to recall Achae trying to implement some RP workshops. I think those are a wonderful idea! Perhaps this thread can serve as a starting point for things that need to be addressed. Maybe try doing them not only IG, but start a thread with helpful hints and tips for beginner RPers. This is definitely something we can work on as a community, it's just going to take some effort from all of us.

[Achae Eanstray]

I added a couple of my ideas to the first of my posts @Ereaes but will add that IF the char they are emoting about indicated their arrogance then....

"Watches the man. Clearly annoyed by his arrogance." Then your typing something we CANNOT KNOW!!! Just emote "Watches the man. Clearly annoyed."

.... seems fine to me sort of like tomatoes and tomatoes with different pronunciations. Clearly annoyed by what? Possibly more in context would help.

Watches the man clearly annoyed "your arrogant attitude disgusts me"

may be more exact yet at the same time unless my char was not attempting arrogance at all, it wouldn't bother me. If that was the case I would probably emote back

"Appears somewhat confused by their gaze "Why do you look annoyed?"

..to open the context of the presumed arrogance. This of course can be done in game but I don't think the older players are so much "teaching" roleplay as simply "showing by example" and that is basically all that can be done. Through the years there have been a number of threads talking of roleplay. There was even an in game workshop not too long ago with "Emote Sally" to help some with questions on emotes.


Basically my idea is you can have a thread discussing "what makes good roleplay", "what do you try to achieve with your roleplay?" but to have one simply saying not to do this or that when you roleplay won't accomplish much. *shrugs*

MY idea of good roleplay:
1. I don't care if you spell good or terrible as long as I can understand what your char is saying (though I sort of like the beginning of sentences to be capitalized), but wish my emotes and words to not be ignored i.e. good give and take paying attention to the other char is important. As an example, if my char is locked in a depot banging on the wood yelling for someone to let her out please don't ignore.
2. Good roleplay takes time, be willing to wait for those slow typers (like me) to post and some that are busy translating what you have just said to understand.
3. IF your roleplay is misunderstood, attempt an IC explanation with clearer roleplay first before attempting ooc yet if not avoided talk about YOUR char and not theirs unless asking (( did you mean to indicate you are... ? ))
4. I believe I have only met just a few "bad/evil" chars that were played well and these players realized their char wouldn't always be the winner because they followed the premise "I am not my char"
5. The best roleplayers play WITH other players and not just for their own amusement. Those that simply play for their own amusement usually don't care if they are good roleplayers or not.

[The Returner]

I have too always hated thought emotes. If your not saying or doing something tangible, don't write it. RP is not a novel, we are trying to play a game, not read a story.

I agree with all of Achaes ideas of good roleplay.

I think roleplay could be improved by going back to the application system, or a generic RP survey system which asks questions about RP and RP related activities.

[Grokk]

But i do still think that solving that topic you can solve it best IG and its something the players alone can change

I don't see how people can continue to make this claim, when there has been absolutely nothing to suggest that it is possibly true.

If this was something that could be solved by the players of Illarion alone, it would've been done by now. It would've at least looked like it was being done. But it hasn't. From my experience, a lot of these players have been around for 2/3/4 years. And they haven't improved in the slightest. It isn't like these problems are anything new. What's been said in this thread is mostly true, but all of this same nonsense has been complained about for eight or so years. And it has only become worse. People aren't going to get better because we write some stuff on the forums telling them to. If previous generations have been unable to resolve these issues, I can't see how the current playerbase can be expected to do so.

For me, it seems that these problems are fundamental to Illarion. The game just isn't that conducive to good roleplay. Apart from 'hidden' skills (which are completely visible), open-PvP, and the rule of enforced roleplay, there is really nothing to distinguish it from its alternatives. If you want to improve the level of roleplay, build a game that roleplayers are going to want to play.

[Vitoria]

For me, it seems that these problems are fundamental to Illarion. The game just isn't that conducive to good roleplay.

you know what, I do play this game quite a long time. And I always loved the special charm of this game. Is unique it is somthing special. If you wanna just slash and kill, go, you will find lots of them in the internet, but somthing like Illarion you wont find.

Since years I had and have fun playing this game: I have met lots of funny good played chars and bad played chars, past the years. And I never got myself so into that " endless talking of .. this game is just not conducive to good roleplay.. and such bad rp everywhere- thinking attitude.
I do dare to say that there is much more good rp around as you think and still lots of fun you can find around Illarion I remember as dji made some nice celebrating at his house, no one showed up, as the elfes tried to get more fun at vanima thinking about some good ideas making celebratings and other things, just few came. The Gms making some mini quest and the most just complain about it in the forum after it.

All the quest are same,more war and lots of players want just something like, hey GM could I have a quest where I am the superhero with a mighty big magical gun ... It is like it is,
like with the VBU everyone cant wait to see it, but so less are helping with. The same is with the rp. Some are complaining non -stop about all and everything instead to give some good ideas. Illarion is as much as fun depending what the players /community makes out of it.
I injoy playing illarion for years by now and I do not let my fun ruin just because a few bad rper are running around.

Ereaes how about this idea, building a guild where some of you could teach others how to act in a proper good way, something like a behaviour school IG ?!! That would be really funny lots of rp,you could let the players run around with books on their heads like they have to learn how to walk straight,or give them a task to go and start a conversation with a stranger and the whole class is standing behind and listening, you could learn them the orcish accent *g* just in case that you ever meet one that you could be able to make him feel good by showing him that you are willing to show respect / pay tribute.
yeah maybe he will beat you up after you talk with him *g* but it would be fun to see it *g* Pretend that you give men high heels/ boots what ever , and let them run around the town to rp it , just to show them that is not always easy for a women to walk straight in such shoes. Go to vanima to learn about beeing in harmony with the nature. Tell the class ,
that's not respectable when men and women walking around holding hands together and be seen like that by older people, or eating and sitting at the same table. Dont matter what ideas you have as long it is fun to rp it.
Or maybe if someone acts badly the king or major of a town could sent a citizen as a "punishment" to the behaviour school. In the end you have a dwarf huggin a tree and an elf kissing gold nuggets *g* So much you could do for having fun
but yeah I know.. not enough killing and slashing monsters and no magic to use no pg-ing and skilling .. boring right?

[Grokk]

For me, it seems that these problems are fundamental to Illarion. The game just isn't that conducive to good roleplay.

you know what, I do play this game quite a long time. And I always loved the special charm of this game. Is unique it is somthing special. If you wanna just slash and kill, go, you will find lots of them in the internet, but somthing like Illarion you wont find.

Since years I had and have fun playing this game: I have met lots of funny good played chars and bad played chars, past the years. And I never got myself so into that " endless talking of .. this game is just not conducive to good roleplay.. and such bad rp everywhere- thinking attitude.

Where did I say that there was bad roleplay everywhere? Illarion is a great game, and I've met some brilliant roleplayers here. I had some great fun playing it a few months back. But that doesn't change the fact that there are some shitty parts about this game and this community, which have plagued Illarion for years. You can turn a blind eye to it and enjoy yourself; fair play to you. But there are a significant number of quality players who are no longer around because of the kind of stuff that Ereaes listed.

And this notion (which the community has convinced itself of) of Illarion being this one-of-a-kind game and absolutely unique is just nonsense. There are alternatives, and the overwhelming majority of roleplayers are choosing those alternatives over Illarion.

As for my claim that the game is not conducive to good roleplay, I don't see how anyone can disagree with that. The skill system is abhorrent, and causes PGing and combat related issues like those that have been mentioned in this thread and generally plague Illarion. The game demands a massive amount of time from its players (again, in part due to the skill system), which leads to the notably youth-heavy community. As I hope Achae's threads have made clear, one of the top reasons for the established, experienced players leaving this game is that very time requirement (the other big one seems to come down to crap roleplay). Aside from it being enforced, there really isn't anything here to encourage roleplay amongst the players. Some of the systems in place even get in the way of it (see: combat.)

It is true that players are only going to improve by observing and being actively taught by other players. But this game doesn't have enough 'other players' for people to model themselves off, nor are those who are around going to take the initiative and teach on their own.

[David Turner]

I guess I will add my 2c worth to simply say, the problem is less simple than it seems and, at the same time, more simple as well.

First, the easy part: How the problem is more simple. Simply put, we have a game engine attached to the RP aspects. This gives us a lot of direction and a good starting point to figure out how stuff works. If my character decides to slap another than just make sure they aren't holding anything and use an unarmed attack (be sure to emote it, so they will know it is a slap and not a punch or whatever else). How long should I wait between emoting and attacking? That depends on the attack and the type of warning that a person would get if they were literally in the position of the character! If I have my sword out and am menacing someone angrily (having already done the emote) than my strike would be immediate, waiting two seconds (or a half second) between saying "#me attacks suddenly and ferociously" and the actual attack breaks the atmosphere. Basically, if someone could easily see or infer something from looking at the "real person" that the character represents (the IC person, not the OOC player) than it is fair game for an emote. If the another character seems annoyed and reacts to your words dismissively and takes on the physical characteristics of becoming more annoyed with each of your words(such as aloofness in body position combined with a tensing of muscles or expression) even as the words they say contradict your character's words than "#me seems annoyed at the other person's arrogance" would be justified since that is something that would be easily seen and inferred (as the character's reaction) but not so easily described. If RL is the basis for what people can and cannot see than we must remember that somewhere between 80% and 90% of communication is supposed to be nonverbal; this means that RL people act out the emote "#me seems annoyed at the other person's arrogance" far more than you may realize. Of course, it is fair for your character to then completely not understand that the annoyance is at perceived arrogance, this is a real life type of interaction too.

I am sometimes surprised at how much can be dealt with simply by treating the characters as real autonomous people (with social skills and understandings like normal people have) and by using the game engine to simulate as many of the actions as possible. I have to agree with what was said earlier, most of these RP issues would be solved by remembering that "your character is not you" and then by following that by showing what your character is doing (by using emotes or the engine). So long as people are doing that, even if their character doesn't have much depth or is different than normal, THEY ARE ROLL PLAYING WELL. Spending two or three lines worth of text to describe how your character looks shady might make you a good writer, but not necessarily a good role player. Assuming that a character absolutely must act in a certain way because other characters do (angry dwarfs, stupid orks, battle happy lizards, tree hugging elves, carefree halfers) does not make you an experienced rollplayer, it makes you an elitist racist (IC this is fine, but OOC this drives away less experienced (ie: new) players). New people will learn that their choice was odd and unusual through character interactions, telling them that they were wrong and expecting them to learn the entire background of Illi before they can try out the roll playing of the game is not healthy (either as a personal characteristic or for the game itself).

Simply put, it is a simple problem because most of the time all you have to do is to help people do better but otherwise CHILL THE **** OUT. You will have a lot more fun that way and get a lot more done. And if they do something that really is against the rules than feel free to call them on it so that they can be better, but don't add expectations on to people beyond that. The rules are there for a reason, including the fact that certain expectations are not there (such as that orks have a specific type of speech problem). Here is the list, in case you need to refresh yourself on what actually is and is not a rule: http://illarion.org/illarion/us_rules_2.php

The complicated part comes up where the rules and engine fall away in the face of the fact that there are RL people playing and for the fact of limitations on what we have to work with.

For instance, if character capabilities are simulated by stats and skills than PGing becomes necessary to have a competent swordsman, let alone playing a master swordsman. Imagine trying to roll play an experienced swordsman who just arrived on the island but has to run from the petty thief because of the difference in combat ability; the RP experience is completely broken by that lack of skill. But then, most "average" characters who have been around a long time end up having better skills than some of the "experienced" characters who just arrived. Roll playing around that double hurtle is something that most experienced roll players still don't understand. And that doesn't even begin to touch the problems with really problematic skills to raise such as crafting, bard; or how little interaction that most characters have with most stats (for instance essance).

Then you have the entire built up history and setting to deal with. Lizards and Zelphina, Dwarves and Immorium, Elves and the Five, the speech problems of different races, the lack of common RL slang (not leet speach but the line gets a lot more fuzzy when talking about other things), the pseudo-"medieval/renaissance/colonial" speech, knowledge about the world outside of Golbaith, etc; these are all things with differing levels of importance but are all related to in-game mythos that can be bent but usually shouldn't be (unless a really good reason is provided). There aren't rules that characters should absolutely know or do things in a certain way or else fear being banned, but they are nonetheless expected. Or how do you deal with the fact that "in the nick of time" is considered a modern phrase when it is over 3 centuries old? Or the fact that the phrase "OK" may have gone back to before the US was even a nation to a native american word meaning "alright"? The term "Slush fund" is from the at least 1800's (it may go as far back as roman sailors) and getting away "scott free" is from the 16th century or earlier! But in game mythos won't allow a lot of things or expects others and so being a "good rollplayer" (in most people's view) requires that you somehow already know these things. Talk about complicated.

And then there are problems with the rules themselves that are either ignored or expected that people play differently. Taking a character aside and explaining roll-playing or reminding them kindly of the rules against randomly attacking people is considered a good and helpful thing to do, but the rules seem to specifically stand against this (see: "Reaction to rule violation" in the rules just below "Behaviour"). It has been commonly accepted that one can "send a dove" to communicate with others over the forums and it is even expected, yet this is also a rule violation (under the "Out of character (OOC)" section). The rules in the section of "Portrayal of Violence and X-rated Actions" are also oftentimes ignored, usually in regards to violence if done publicly, but the rule becomes extremely problematic due to the inclusion of the phrase "Also all contents that hurt the ideals and moralities of involved players and random listeners are not allowed". Swearing would obviously fall under this (though most would not be upset if this restriction were ignored) but also any type of "brutal" attack would also be specifically included.

Honestly, I could say more but this is already too long as it is.

[Anon of D'Athen]

You know. . . I feel that I agree whole-heartedly with Turney: We NEED the application system again. IT won't keep out all new and young players (a good thing), but it will keep out those who lack any sense of rp and story telling. It was around when I came to the game, and honestly, I felt excited when I saw that. Hell, I was only fourteen or so and I got through the essay well enough. It wasn't difficult, but it did help to limit the bad ones that haven't improved over the course of a year or four.

[Fooser]

IT won't keep out all new and young players (a good thing), but it will keep out those who lack any sense of rp and story telling.

That's not true.

Everyone always thinks the RP was better "back in the day" but I challenge anyone who thinks that to start going through old posts. It's actually good for a laugh to see how bad a lot of it was. Yes, even during the application era.

[The Returner]

If elected GM, I will petition the staff to bring back the application process. And also, player based quests.

In addition to the cookies.

[Uhuru]

A newbies perspective... I have been playing less than a year and I have to say, I get no help whatsoever in terms of RP in game. This is my first RP game and I'm sure it shows. I have improved by miles over where I started, but it has been a slow arduous journey that I had to, basically, learn on my own.

Most often, other players say what they wanna say and leave. I'm left standing there with little or no time to respond at all let alone react. Or they simply just laugh at me and ridicule. Yes, the ridicule has been bad. I tend to just avoid those players, which makes it difficult in a game with so few playing. I find it easier not to say anything at all as this limits the ridicule and scorn. Does it help me learn? Only learn who to avoid. Really that's about it.

My second observation is the amount of time it takes for some people to type. A lengthy RP can take forever! I can be standing there waiting and waiting thinking someone has fallen asleep. I lose interest or focus and if there is another conversation going on, my attention has shifted. RP is great, but keep it quick and alive. Keep it active and fun. Don't type for more than 10 seconds. And is it necessary to continue an RP action into more than one entry. If you have that much in your action, then possibly your writing too much?

I will admit, when someone shocks me, it takes me a while to react. Even to write "#me is shocked speachless" just doesn't come to my brain. I'm busy trying to figure out what the heck is going on and why a character is acting the way he's acting. This is something I am working on, but again, it takes time and players have to understand they need to give me reaction time, which they don't. You go up to someone knowing you are going to shock them, give them time, especially if you know it is a newer player.

[Ereaes]

(The rper that emotes more, or more lengthy emotes is not always a good rper. However, those who do not emote at all, are bad rpers.)

In response to Vitoria's suggestion that i make a guild of behavior, i would be more than happy to do so (granted i could not do so with any of my current chars, but could make a more....snobbish char that could do so.) The downside to the suggestion is that your right, it has no violence and no pging and what not. And while that is not a problem for me, any new player just starting out (as most are used to hack and slash games) will not wish to go through with it. I truly enjoy the thought however, and may very well ask for help in the endeavor.

In reply to a few of the others: Yes, i am more than aware these problems have been around near forever as i have been playing for...what going near on...9-10 years now? The game itself has flaws, yes. These flaws have been attempted to be corrected by the gms and programmers and to be honest, they have done a fairly decent job of it. I will not go into the RP vs. Game mechanics spat because that is all purely supposition in my mind.

I believe that the application system should be brought back (i went through it, as did MANY others, get the new players on the bandwagon.) While it wont deny access to potentially bad rpers, it WILL discourage those who simply do not care enough about RP to write a little story, and they will end their inquiry into the game there, and not bring the lack of caring into the game itself. I can completely sympathize why some of the older players find a new char IG who, while rping in a shoddy way, is still rping, and will therefor not help. It becomes tedious because many of them have learned from experience that the new player will most likely get angry at them, IG and OOCly, and not follow their advice anyway. (An added bit: I dislike running to a gm or cm, as do many others because it should not be needed. But when the situation calls for it, you should not hesitate to do so.)

I have NOT yet seen a new player completely ridiculed for rping badly. Many of the times those attempting to help said new player will make a joke to ease the tension, but i have not recently seen a player ridicule another for their RP. Critique, yes, advise, yes, ridicule, no. And should this happen one should contact a gm and submit the relevant logs to show it. The only way that i can see it happening is if an rper has been giving advice, and the new player continually disregards it, which brings out anger. While i sympathize with the one teaching/advising, i do not condone the ridicule.

One of the main problems these days is those refusing to learn. Old and new player alike, we are all guilty off it at some point. But here i bring it up to newer players and to those who just started. KEEP AN OPEN MIND, If someone pulls you aside or whispers some quick advise OOC, LISTEN. Don't feel you are under attack, because your not. Many people when confronted about their rp will lash out, its a game, keep a cool head, and listen objectively. I myself have logged out from pure frustration, so i understand your inclination to be angry, relax and double check to make sure if they are truly being mean spirited, or are actually attempting to help.

Again, i can only state this, Illa is not for everyone. Those who continually break the rules, or refuse to change their ways, completely kill the atmosphere for the game itself. I want to make ONE thing clear: I DO NOT blame the gms, and nor should any of you. At this point in time they have their hands full working on the VBU. And i do recall when the GMs were really active, THAT was my best time in playing illa, because the gms made certain that things were smooth.
I agree with the whole player quest remark, more should be made. But with reasonable limits.


-Small continuation of thought emoting-
"Crosses her arms, clearly annoyed by his arrogance" is not something that needs to be emoted, the rper on the other side of that should be able to guess why she is annoyed, and if not, he can say "Whats the matter my dear?" thus continuing the rp. I have actually seen someone #me thinks he is an idiot. Im not even sure i have to comment on that one, you can be the judge. Again, easily expressed emotions, confusion, anger, sadness, happiness, fear. These things can be expressed with just emotes. Mixed feelings, complicated thought processes cannot be expressed fully without more of a description or speaking. Be kind, we are not mind readers.

-concerning quest complaints- all i have to say is "deal". While they may not be as fun as others, or up to your expectations, at least you get a quest. In stagnant times, they are a godsend.

-The status quo of the game has been too firmly placed. Remember when it was not ONLY trollsbane that had upheavals? When Kumdah was Northrot? Then Varshikar, at one point in time i think it was even called Kallahorn. Apart from the recent attempt to upend greenbriar(which im sorry, was rather poorly done) the rest of the isle has gone relatively unchanged for a LONG time. I believe that without the CONSTANT stability of many of the towns, the game would prove to be more enjoyable. Have a revolt now and again. If you have read over the "old players" thread, you will notice how some of the best memories were placed in times of war or uncertainty like the Lich wars. Add some uncertainty now and again, spice things up.

[Grokk]

The application system was removed for a reason, and it would make no sense to reintroduce it now, with the state of Illarion being as it is. There are already far too few new players joining; I'm not sure why you would want to reduce that even further.

I think you'd find that an account system would discourage just as many good players as it does bad ones anyway. Forcing new players to work so that they are allowed to play our game (which is in dire need of new players) is completely counter-intuitive. Just because quality roleplayers are going to be able to pass the test and make it through to the game, doesn't mean that they are actually going to sit it in the first place.

[Estralis Seborian]

Some facts on the application system:

• Registration numbers dropped massively after the introduction of the applications (~1/4)
• The majority of applicatios were rejected by the GMs, resulting in even less new players (~1/10)
• Rejection of applications was usually due to texts like this: "hefipwhipewhfweopfhoaw pfhfiuehfuirasgbu zarbfvzurbvzbzuvgfbraiugv aigbfruigfrauiegfa igai gariwug", NOT because of a lack of quality
• The worst rule violators this game had ever passed the test easily. Many "bad RPers" also passed the test easily
• GMs spent a huge share of their time on applications, rejecting most due to the lack of any text and began to neglect the actual game
• Roleplay didn't benefit from the applications. Old players commonly stressed that RP was good before the applications and much worse after the applications were dropped again
• Writing a story does not show that you can roleplay
• The current GM staff has other duties than reading applications, future GMs will be obliged to spend almost all effort on the game itself - ingame

Seriously, if measure A did not work to fix problem B but caused bad consequence 1, 2 and 3, demanding to reintroduce measure A to fix problem B isn't reasonable. Instead, different measures have to be taken! Constructive measures that help the game instead of destroying it.

I gave a first idea here (german, sorry): http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=6823

Prompt players to submit their character story and description during character generation, without any "check" by a GM, but still, encourage them to think about their character.

Other measures are welcome, ideas can be posted on Mantis as feature request. Workshops are a good (yet not so effective) way, !gm is also your friend if you encounter players that could need a little lesson. We receive very few !gm these days with the majority being stuff like "help I'm stuck" but no constructive hints what a GM could do to improve the situation.

On the "the skill system is bad"-issue: http://illarion.org/general/us_news.php

[The Returner]

That doesn't mean it can not be modified.

The problem with lower draw is not the application system, its how the game is percieved. Illarion is an MMO, and would-be players treat it like an MMO. The fact that it is not an MMO but an actual role playing game is lost on most of them.

Sounds more like "We don't want to have to deal with applications" rather then "it really didn't work"

If people are abusing the system, use captchas and such to desuade them from abusing the system. As for the "Worst" rule violaters, I would say that was much more 2001 to 2003 (Mostly because I was one of the "Worst" rule violaters and it takes one to know one ), and certainly not these penny-enny "I'M AN EVIL TROLLS FEAR ME" munchkins we get nowadays. I wont name names.

Maybe a story didn't work? Why not a survey of proper IG behaviour? That can't be "abused", its scripted into the site, read the rules, do the survey, fail this, no characcount. Easy. Hardly any work required.

Of the people who join now, Estralis, how many actually play the game more then an hour? I hardly ever see "And ___ new players" On the online list, which shows to me that not having the application process is already detrimental to growing the community :/

[Estralis Seborian]

I hardly ever see "And ___ new players" On the online list, which shows to me that not having the application process is already detrimental to growing the community :/

Indeed, this game is currently (speciously) dying a slow death, you can see the cardiogram here: http://illarion.org/media/statistics/us_actplayers.png - so, any actions taken can improve the situation. And a modified account creation process might be quite helpful. So, concrete proposals are welcome! We once had a multiple choice test, didn't help at all; also, I think more constructive approaches are needed that do not aim on keeping players out but attracting/encouraging the right players to register!

[The Returner]

I agree, but it needs to be taken in an approach that promotes players willing to learn or already skilled at RP.

If we keep bringing in players who cannot RP, and steering the game into the MMO direction of NPC "go here, do this" script quests, eventually the purpose of illarion will suffer. Ultimately, it is already suffering now from lack of a stable community, a too big map, a needless "noob" island, et all the things listed in "older players" "newer players" and indeed, this thread.

Lets face an undeniable fact, illarion is not, and will not, ever be a huge playerbase game. The bulk of potential playerbase is in germany, and that market isn't even tapped into at this point really anyway. I say that because north american players, british players, and the like are playing AAA title and even B title games by developers who are much better off then Illarion. Germany has a strong roleplay community, a great many larps, and several german only pen and paper games that we do not have. Lots of the ones we do have originate there.

But theres such a cultural divide right now. Germans don't really want to be on a forum that speaks primarily English because theres English players and cater to them. Many Germans already playing, aren't even reading english posts or playing english in game. Hell theres a region in game for ONLY german speakers.

We need to advertise the game more using more mediums. A dev blog. A youtube site or Vlog. Getting banners on social networking sites. Asking would be up and coming reviewers to come and stay. LARP sites, Pen and Paper sites, and the like. Not try to get illarion into top 100 lists of MMO's and MUD's when its really a graphical pen and paper game that you play, of which its among the last to be such.

Appeal to the dice gamers and the board gamers, appeal to the larpers and the escapists. Thats where players for this game are. You need to throw it into their faces. The lore is messed up, the wiki is busted, the freakin chronicle is completely wonked now, the webdesign...not really changed in nine years, ect...

THIS IS ILLARION, THE GRAPHICAL ROLE PLAYING GAME. CREATE A LIFE OUTSIDE REALITY AND STEER IT ON ANY PATH YOU CHOOSE

[Estralis Seborian]

Mr Returner,
you defined a clear target audience, indicated a niche Illarion fits into and even gave approaches how to attract that target audience. Very good ! There are now just two steps missing: Someone needs to collect sites that are frequented by that target audience and someone needs to do the promotion. Since the latter step is only reasonable after the release of the VBU (Illarion is simply too shitty atm), the first step can be done... right now.

Maybe a "promotion task force" might be a good approach to this. However, I cannot take the initiative here. Anyone?

[The Returner]

Indeed, but I think a more reasonable first step is to get the site more functional.

Get easier accessible lore. Bring back the already well written chronicle, as..whatever that is you have going on now, is not even a tenth of the text already written. Get all the lore and such back. Creatively fill in missing or unavailible stuff. These are things that you are probably going to have to do when VBU comes out anyway, starting now will only make the transition that much easier wont it?

Of course, I know. BUT TURNY, WE ARE ALL WORKING ON VBU AND HAVE NO TIME FOR OTHER STUFFS. Well, Turny has a solution. Get more d00dz into your base.

The VBU thread where you asked why people arent helping, I think the consensus was...they didn't know what to do, and the staff is doing it already. So....Why not get people who do know what to do? I'm sure theres webdesigners, storywriters, and the like in this community who would be happy to help.

If you want to wait until VBU is out to pull in more new playerbase, thats fine. But there is stuff that can be done NOW to at least clean the house up for when the painter comes, yeah?