Illarion Gods

[Flux]

To clarify on what I was saying because apparently some people didn't quite get it:

I am not saying you should roleplay an atheist, that it's a good thing, that you should have a load of chars running around doing it etc.

I am just pointing out that people shouldn't be so judgemental about the roleplay of others. To say that any character, regardless of their background, under any circumstances, who does not believe in the gods is therefore badly roleplayed is pretty elitist. That is like saying that there is no such thing as:
A skeptic.
A lunatic.
An idiot.

Because any of those 3 things could quite easily not believe in the gods, and that wouldn't mean they are badly roleplayed.

[Kranek]

Important is the relation between the number of believers and the number of atheists. Atheists should be rare...

[Estralis Seborian]

I'd like to toss in something: The existance(!) of the gods of Illarion is unquestionable. It is like not believing in bats or toads. Maybe your character never saw a toad and hence, has problems believing that they exist, but he'll be an outsider. 99% of all characters should simply laugh about such a point of view.

Another aspect is that some characters may not deny the existance of the 'gods', but deny their divineness. AFAIK, the eleven were mortals once that were granted some uber powers by the five. Thus, an Illarion character could regard them as prima inter pares. But no gods. That is a small yet important difference. At another level, the Five also "came from somewhere" - and could be regarded powerful yet still sort of mudane beings. All this can yield interesting IC discussions; but characters who say that the gods don't exist are simply retarded dorks living under a rock.

[Kranek]

but characters who say that the gods don't exist are simply retarded dorks living under a rock.

And should be treated the right way...

[Grokk]

The existance(!) of the gods of Illarion is unquestionable. It is like not believing in bats or toads. Maybe your character never saw a toad and hence, has problems believing that they exist, but he'll be an outsider. 99% of all characters should simply laugh about such a point of view.

Another aspect is that some characters may not deny the existance of the 'gods', but deny their divineness. AFAIK, the eleven were mortals once that were granted some uber powers by the five. Thus, an Illarion character could regard them as prima inter pares. But no gods. That is a small yet important difference. At another level, the Five also "came from somewhere" - and could be regarded powerful yet still sort of mudane beings. All this can yield interesting IC discussions; but characters who say that the gods don't exist are simply retarded dorks living under a rock.

I really think that this is the sort of thing that should be on the wiki, stickied in a post on the forum, and maybe even somewhere on the main site; so that it is easily found by new players.

[Kranek]

The existance(!) of the gods of Illarion is unquestionable. It is like not believing in bats or toads. Maybe your character never saw a toad and hence, has problems believing that they exist, but he'll be an outsider. 99% of all characters should simply laugh about such a point of view.

Another aspect is that some characters may not deny the existance of the 'gods', but deny their divineness. AFAIK, the eleven were mortals once that were granted some uber powers by the five. Thus, an Illarion character could regard them as prima inter pares. But no gods. That is a small yet important difference. At another level, the Five also "came from somewhere" - and could be regarded powerful yet still sort of mudane beings. All this can yield interesting IC discussions; but characters who say that the gods don't exist are simply retarded dorks living under a rock.

I really think that this is the sort of thing that should be on the wiki, stickied in a post on the forum, and maybe even somewhere on the main site; so that it is easily found by new players.

Good idea.

[Djironnyma]

As sayed before we need to different between the "belief of gods" and the "knowledge about gods existing".

It is written in the background story of illarion that the gods Avatars shown rarely, but they does. Also there are all over illarion priest which not only talk the whole day of god an wullah which also have (more ore less) impressive powers from these gods. To doubt in illarion that the gods doesnt exist is just a bit crazy. It isn't like every people have see a god or a priest doing a wonder - but it is common knowledge - like the splitting of Atoms - i think nearly nobody of us had ever visit the reactor of a atomic power plant - so we doubt that these power plants exist?

But just about accepting the existence of gods, that mean not that you belief to them, worship them. That a char doesnt worship any god isnt so abstract. E.g. he havent decide for a god jet or he had bad luck in his life and blame the gods for that, or he is a lich which doesnt care about them. We have in Illarion a whole race which doesnt follow any god, the drow. Its like in reality, just because you know that atomic power plants exist means not that we think they are great and will rescuer us all.

[David Turner]

That said, I never said that a skeptic could not exist or that it would be bad roleplay to make one

It all comes down to this: My telling you that they should recognize at least the existance and reality of the gods is not forced RP, that is pointing out bad RP on your part.

Wow, way to take what I said out of context. I understand that you are trying to make me look stupid by pointing out apparent inconsistancies in what I said, but ask yourself this: how does it make you look when I point out exactly what I was saying and show how completely out of context your quote was?

The post where that second quote came from was about the accusation that expecting players to know of the gods was forced RP. I pointed out that in incredibly rare instances it could happen but that this would require an extremely good explanation and that the entire mythology of the world would keep this from being a "logical conclusion". The final sentence was simply a summery statement of what every single "the gods don't exist" character I have ever seen are guilty of being. Or mabie I should quote exactly what I did say so that it is obvious how little you care about the entirety of what I have said when it comes to this issue.

There is no "logical justification that they don't exist" from an outside point of view and most characters living within this world should feel the same way so long as they actually come from this world (as all of them do) and so long as they don't have some extremely good reason for not believing (as almost none of them do).

It all comes down to this: My telling you that they should recognize at least the existance and reality of the gods is not forced RP, that is pointing out bad RP on your part.

Or mabie I should point out how I have been saying this all along by showing how I have been pointing out this distinction continually.

For a character to not realize that these beings exist requires them to either be incredibly naive or incredibly dense (and either way should damage their credibility with other characters).

That doesn't keep a character from not believing they exist, but the expected reaction should appropriately be of shock that someone would believe something so silly.

So what I have been saying turns out to be... pretty much what most everyone else has been pointing out about characters who deny the existence of the gods. I would like, if possible, to keep this discussion about the topic rather than about the people discussing the topic, but attempting such an underhanded dishonest and mean-spirited attempt to ruin my credibility rather than speaking about the topic only makes you the lessor man (or woman) and makes it obvious to any thoughtful person that your argument is so flawed that you must resort to personal attacks to have any chance of winning.

PS: please excuse the harshness of my post, but it was warranted. "A good name is worth more than silver and gold" afterall, and he was trying to damage mine for a silly disagreement.

[orgis]

They mostly exist in some forms but its arguable IC that they are just like everyone else... just more ability's. I've beens aying that from the start

[Kevin Lightdot]

I shall reveal to you, these long lost documents that I have translated, regarding the Illarion Pantheon:

*****

And it was from this day forth, that Moshran took on the form of a young englishman named Matt, accompanied by his buttbuddy Nargun, now naming himself King Bob.
Together they ventured to the island of gobiath, to end the reign of the corrupted Sinari, now calling herself Pellandria, soon after which she was WTFPWNED.
And though her material body was lost, her spirit lingered on, soon laying claim to another body, that of the elfboy HANS, thus the circle continues, as she gathered up her scattered followers.

But soon also the god of shadows, Ronagan came into play, cleverly disguised as a madman, who occasionally reffered to himself as Brer. Swiftly he came and swifly he went, stealing Sinari's eternal virginity, vanquishing her claim to power.

The two victorious gods, Powerhouse and King Bob, met up with two more of their comerades, Marius, god of lollings and booze, and Elara, currently posing as a queer little boy named Elderberry.

And with their combined powers, they restored the land of Gobiath to it's equillibrium, the delicate balance between LOLOLOL and QQ

And thus ends the tale of these brave gods, who now live their godly lives laughing at the unlucky adventurers running into stray golems and hordes of conjured domestic animals, and sometimes, when you listen very closely, they say you can hear the sound of weapons clashing down deep in the ancient graveyard, the sound of eternal, the sound of eternal skill and win.

May not actually have happened.

*****

[Shandariel el Lysanthrai]

i would like to be not named in such an inappropriate and off-topic posting. I do feel insulted by such use of my name and my person in this context.

Thanks and goodbye.

[Kevin Lightdot]

't was only meant in good humour, sorry bud.

[Nalzaxx]

BY BRAGONS BEARD.

[Joris X]

Good Lord mates. This was only meant to answer like three questions! Jeeze-la-weeze man!

[Koboldshroud]

When the gm's counted the times the gods were mentioned... they forgot Nitram.. they should have stones thrown at them

[Estelwen]

NEVER Piss on an alter (From Alex) and I play a elfess who dont believe in gods

[CJK]

I remember Chester Copperpot .... relieved himself on the altar in the graveyard. That was the fastest respawn on a red I'd ever seen.


And an elf that doesnt believe in gods.... I've an issue on that one.

[Olaf Tingvatn]

To clarify on what I was saying because apparently some people didn't quite get it:

I am not saying you should roleplay an atheist, that it's a good thing, that you should have a load of chars running around doing it etc.

I am just pointing out that people shouldn't be so judgemental about the roleplay of others. To say that any character, regardless of their background, under any circumstances, who does not believe in the gods is therefore badly roleplayed is pretty elitist. That is like saying that there is no such thing as:
A skeptic.
A lunatic.
An idiot.

Because any of those 3 things could quite easily not believe in the gods, and that wouldn't mean they are badly roleplayed.

i think i'm in love...*fluttering of eyes in a very non manleh way* i still think it's forceroleplay to FORCE someone to believe in a god but, hey i'm just an idiot, so what do i know.. AND i shall repeat myself: for being an atheist game, in the sence that roleplaying is deemed evil by religious peoples, it suuure is enforced that not believing in some god is bad for your health..well your characters health..take my orcling Raktog Mokta for instance whom was beaten, child abuse right there, up by the warlord for just not believing. and jailed for not believing...*shakes his head* religion can be discussed for an eternity..you should make an atheist server no gods, just pure roleplaying. 'nuff said...

[Arvemor]

Why must everyone (who is normal/intelligent) believe in the Gods. The story implies that most people do...but from that line of thought, the story also implies that when people have noone else to talk to, they don't usually go off and start killing things until exhausted. But that happens anyway.

Eh. I think I'll just ignore this thread and hope the topic doesn't come up in game. I find it hard to relate to my characters if I make them religious.

[Koboldshroud]

If your serious Mr. Olaf i agree whole heartedly, a no gods server would the the cheese on my biscuit, i mean sure its fun to have gods, but for example, this Netheria quest has completely screwed one of my characters over, just because she already worships a god, if i dont worship Netheria, my character is screwed now, if i do worship her then my character will be screwed when the quest is over. gaaaah! i hate gods in illarion.

[Kevin Lightdot]

Remember, if a quest has your character really stuck somehow you can always POLITELY talk with one of the people leading the quest to find a solution.

[Achae Eanstray]

Remember, if a quest has your character really stuck somehow you can always POLITELY talk with one of the people leading the quest to find a solution.

*agrees nodding and huggles Kevin*

Well, a long time ago, I started with a char that was a fence sitter on the gods... knowing they definitely existed (due to reading the history) yet skeptical of how they affected daily life except possibly where your char would go when they died. On becoming a druid she began believing in Ushura more and more and a lot around her also believed in one god or the other having heard almost every day discussion about one or the other including the halflings who wouldn't even speak Moshran's name to Dain whose entire existence was devoted to a god. The gods and belief in them was widely excepted at the time. Maybe it was just who I managed to RP with, but I still hear almost every day a reference to one or the other even if it is as simple as "May the five be with you"

[CJK]

This entire thread is silly.

everybody knows Netheria is the one and only true Goddess and that all mortals shall worship her! Just ask Roland about it!

[Athian]

If your serious Mr. Olaf i agree whole heartedly, a no gods server would the the cheese on my biscuit, i mean sure its fun to have gods, but for example, this Netheria quest has completely screwed one of my characters over, just because she already worships a god, if i dont worship Netheria, my character is screwed now, if i do worship her then my character will be screwed when the quest is over. gaaaah! i hate gods in illarion.

I'm not sure what your talking about here. Why would you be screwed for not worshiping this 'new god'? Just because everyone tells your character to do something does not mean that he absolutely has too. None of my characters are going to worship this demi-god. In fact I'm more surprised that so many characters have turned to this Goddess. Considering all the demons, immortal and other powerful baddies that have shown up claiming to be gods and doing things far greater then conquering a single altar the fact that so few people aren't skeptical is odd. I'm getting the feeling that all the people who joined the new Goddess are in it for some perks or rewards, or already had very loose ties to the gods (On Gobiath the eleven younger gods are not really a question). Even those abandoning their gods for the obvious exploitation don't have to worry about divine punishment from their gods, so i don't think you have to worry about some sort of punishment for not worshiping this 'new god'.

I'd say don't worry about it and do your thing. I don't think anyone will bully you or attack you for not worshiping this Goddess, at least as long as you aren't standing amongst them being a nay sayer (at which you'd be asking for it).

[Olaf Tingvatn]

If your serious Mr. Olaf i agree whole heartedly, a no gods server would the the cheese on my biscuit

i am very serious about it just like the other server minus the gods.

[Kranek]

gaaaah! i hate gods in illarion.

Gods belong to the background of this game. You cant stand the gods? Maybe this is the wrong game for you?

[David Turner]

If your serious Mr. Olaf i agree whole heartedly, a no gods server would the the cheese on my biscuit, i mean sure its fun to have gods, but for example, this Netheria quest has completely screwed one of my characters over, just because she already worships a god, if i dont worship Netheria, my character is screwed now, if i do worship her then my character will be screwed when the quest is over. gaaaah! i hate gods in illarion.

Might I point out that you can worship more than one god? About the only ones in this setting who don't worship more than one deity are the Lizardfolk, and only because their religion goes back to the time of worshiping the five (so they look down somewhat on the "new gods" as less than the creators) but without the disappearance that four of the five had (so they look down somewhat on the other five as deities that abandoned them). Pretty much all characters have a first god or most important god that they follow (which determines where they go when they die) but an evil character who followed Moshran before would still hold him first as they followed Netheria. And, once the quest is over, assuming that she doesn't disappear somewhere to return later, your first allegiance need not change.

[CJK]

I dont exactly grasp your point David...


In this quest you cant exactly follow Netheria AND follow the "Real" gods... I think. Depends on you allegiance... if you truely side with Netheria you must truely swear off the other gods and "Worship her at -all- altars"

[David Turner]

I don't know, where do you get your information. I'm not sure if I'm just not looking at the right place, but I can't find any clear information anywhere. Well, with the possible exception of this one quest, that is how it works. But that is about all I can say without more info.

[CJK]

I get my quest information from my character's experiences with the quest IG.


And as far as worshipping multiple deities.... aside from Netheria quest, you can worship as many as you want. My character is((or is it was?)) a devout follower of almost all of them... just not too openly.