Hallo,
ist es nicht normal fuer online-games, das änderungen die "älteren Spieler" immer ärgert.
Es ist doch so:
- Mich ärgert es auch, da ich meinen charakter so ausgelegt habe, damit ich das spiel spielen konnte, so wie es in diesem moment halt war. man merkte, intelligence brauchte man nicht allzu sehr, da stärke wichtiger war um mehr rohstoffe auf einmal zu tragen. so habe auch ich meinen charakter so eingestellt, das die intelligenz nicht auf der höchsten stufe war...warum auch.
- doch denke ich, das die neuerungen schon durchdacht sind. ist es nicht so, das es viel zu leicht ist, einen charakter zu erschaffen, der sowohl krieger als auch magier ist. wie realistisch ist das denn? wollten wir in den letzten monaten nicht mehr realismus durch verschiedene neuerungen? jetzt kommen die neuerungen und den leuten gefällt es nicht, weil es realistischer wird?
- DAS VERSTEHE ICH NICHT ????
- spielt doch zuerst mal weiter, vielleicht habt ihr die möglichkeit eure intelligenz aufzubessern, durch stetes zauber oder heilen, durch gegenstände oder ...wer weiss... ich denke, das die neuerungen wohl so durchdacht sind, das da noch was kommen wird.
- ich finde wenn jetzt ein neuer spieler zu dem spiel kommt, dann merkt dieser, aha ich kann entweder einen starken krieger machen oder einen magier, der alles lernen kann.
- DAS IST REALISTISCH
also meine meinung ist, ich warte jetzt mal ab und schaue was da kommen mag. ich sehe meinen magier jetzt als neue spielfigur an und nutze meine möglichkeiten, wenn diese im moment auch sehr beschränkt sind.
ps: normalerweise übersetze ich ja selbst, aber das war etwas zu viel fuer mich, darum bitte
plz translate someone
Gruesse Avenarius
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Moderator: Gamemasters
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translation (short)
he doesn't understand why the people are upset about the new spell-system, since this one is more realistic and people *wanted* to have more realism.
my 2 cents: i think, there has to be a second ting like that, concerning weapons, armor and shields where it depends on your str what you can use and what you can't.
the effects will be, that it's not that easy anymore to kill monsters, that you can't kill anyone you want to kill.
people are mainly upset because they are not used to this system. that's it. this game is in development, not everything will remain like this. you'll get used to it and i beliee it will be much more fun once you got used to it as well.
martin
he doesn't understand why the people are upset about the new spell-system, since this one is more realistic and people *wanted* to have more realism.
my 2 cents: i think, there has to be a second ting like that, concerning weapons, armor and shields where it depends on your str what you can use and what you can't.
the effects will be, that it's not that easy anymore to kill monsters, that you can't kill anyone you want to kill.
people are mainly upset because they are not used to this system. that's it. this game is in development, not everything will remain like this. you'll get used to it and i beliee it will be much more fun once you got used to it as well.
martin
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The people who have chosen to play a mage with low intelligence, have mainly created the character, because they have known how the game works, not because they have imagined a character concept with these attributes.
This is a roleplaying game. Chose your stats, as they fit your character concept, NOT as you think you get the most advantages of the game system. If you do or have done anyway - your problem.
This is a roleplaying game. Chose your stats, as they fit your character concept, NOT as you think you get the most advantages of the game system. If you do or have done anyway - your problem.
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Damien
- Posts: 7845
- Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2001 5:59 pm
- Location: Vanima and grey Refuge, of course.
- Contact:
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The main Problem is : Many players started to play without knowing the exact game rules and works. Many main Characters have been made to explore illarion, with average attributes, and the main attributes are those that seem right and give the character a certain direction. Characters and their concepts developed over a long time, with the game play. Now, these roles are simply not working anymore. The players start to leave their old, "useless" characters, and create new ones, sometimes transferring all their goods... and create new characters with "powered" attributes, meaning they have maxed-out attributes. That way, the left-over older Characters who keep their roles, are simply being dominated, and must totally change their concept somehow, and find something else they are good in. A spellcaster who can only cast ineffective spells (even if he can cast the most) is useless against monsters and in pvp fights - and useless in the most other profession, because his main attributes are set to be a mage.
Of course, you can still be quite an effective peasant, smith or carpenter. In the mage's case, a healer too.
Since this change came a little quick, it simply "ran" over these players. It is a good and logical change, but it simply came a little quick.
To all the mage characters who cannot cast effective spells anymore :
Think of a roleplay reason why your character has lost his power. Perhaps he burned out, or he has found out that using destructive magic is responsible for many bad things and therefor unacceptable. Or he fumbled with a mighty spell or strange experiment. Perhaps he is convinced to follow some god and does not need other magic than light and healing magic anymore. Or something has hit his head, and he lost knowledge about several things.
Try to keep your characters, do not abandon them. That would simply change illarion into a kind of "powergamer's paradise". Try to keep up the atmosphere.
Perhaps it may be possible to somehow train your attributes later on, perhaps not - only time can tell.
(Edited by Damien at 10:56 am on April 9, 2002)
Of course, you can still be quite an effective peasant, smith or carpenter. In the mage's case, a healer too.
Since this change came a little quick, it simply "ran" over these players. It is a good and logical change, but it simply came a little quick.
To all the mage characters who cannot cast effective spells anymore :
Think of a roleplay reason why your character has lost his power. Perhaps he burned out, or he has found out that using destructive magic is responsible for many bad things and therefor unacceptable. Or he fumbled with a mighty spell or strange experiment. Perhaps he is convinced to follow some god and does not need other magic than light and healing magic anymore. Or something has hit his head, and he lost knowledge about several things.
Try to keep your characters, do not abandon them. That would simply change illarion into a kind of "powergamer's paradise". Try to keep up the atmosphere.
Perhaps it may be possible to somehow train your attributes later on, perhaps not - only time can tell.
(Edited by Damien at 10:56 am on April 9, 2002)
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@Damien: In other words, force yourself into a role that you didn't choose and abandon the role that you chose long ago and developed.
You're right when you say That would simply change illarion into a kind of "powergamer's paradise". That's where I see Illarion going now.
@Bror: Your analogy is like getting into a science faculty in University 4 years ago when the requirement was to have 2 sciences in high school, and then now 4 years later when you get your degree, they kick you out without your degree because they changed the requirements now to 3 sciences to get into University. Then they say "Tough luck, if you really wanted to get into sciences you should have taken all 3 sciences in high school instead even though we only asked for 2."
You're right when you say That would simply change illarion into a kind of "powergamer's paradise". That's where I see Illarion going now.
@Bror: Your analogy is like getting into a science faculty in University 4 years ago when the requirement was to have 2 sciences in high school, and then now 4 years later when you get your degree, they kick you out without your degree because they changed the requirements now to 3 sciences to get into University. Then they say "Tough luck, if you really wanted to get into sciences you should have taken all 3 sciences in high school instead even though we only asked for 2."
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@bror
i fear you missed my point.
if i have a concept in mind how "intelligent" my character should be, and think of this as a good concept for a RPG or illarion in special, i have no way to determine what INT-value in illarion this corresponds to. there is no way to compare intelligence and illarion-int before i don't know anything of the game, and this is a problem because there is no way to *change* that once you have choosen this value.
i mean, you are forced to type in a number which is (IMO) quite important and which *cannot* be changed anymore without knowing what the number means.
i'm not sure if my point came out clearer now. maybe i should explain it in german tomorrow.
martin
i fear you missed my point.
if i have a concept in mind how "intelligent" my character should be, and think of this as a good concept for a RPG or illarion in special, i have no way to determine what INT-value in illarion this corresponds to. there is no way to compare intelligence and illarion-int before i don't know anything of the game, and this is a problem because there is no way to *change* that once you have choosen this value.
i mean, you are forced to type in a number which is (IMO) quite important and which *cannot* be changed anymore without knowing what the number means.
i'm not sure if my point came out clearer now. maybe i should explain it in german tomorrow.
martin
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you are right,
but its also right, that the start of the charakter is 4 points for int (as elve) i gave 8 points to int. int is with 12 so the highest stat. (at me) also like constitution and agility.
and if i think, now i have a char very int and agil and with a good constitution, and this char is now a stupid one in game???
thats my only problem.
its right that these char cannot cast all spells....ist ok for me,
but only 5 spells from 15 its not many, i think he is more intelligent as to cast 1/3 of all spells.
i think thats to less.
Greetings Avenarius
but its also right, that the start of the charakter is 4 points for int (as elve) i gave 8 points to int. int is with 12 so the highest stat. (at me) also like constitution and agility.
and if i think, now i have a char very int and agil and with a good constitution, and this char is now a stupid one in game???
thats my only problem.
its right that these char cannot cast all spells....ist ok for me,
but only 5 spells from 15 its not many, i think he is more intelligent as to cast 1/3 of all spells.
i think thats to less.
Greetings Avenarius
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The thing you are telling is very different. A University has rules how it works. Illarion has rules too, but you are supposed to roleplay. This means you create a character as you think they fit your character concept, not as they give you the most sophisticated and optimized character by the rules.Quote: from Dyluck on 11:22 am on April 9, 2002
@Bror: Your analogy is like getting into a science faculty in University 4 years ago when the requirement was to have 2 sciences in high school, and then now 4 years later when you get your degree, they kick you out without your degree because they changed the requirements now to 3 sciences to get into University. Then they say "Tough luck, if you really wanted to get into sciences you should have taken all 3 sciences in high school instead even though we only asked for 2."
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@Bror: Character concepts don't just stay the same forever, they develop too. Also, not everybody knew the way that YOU think magic should be. In your opinion it seems a person can only "learn" magic so he needs intellegence, but not everyone developed their character like that. Some people roleplayed their magic ability to have come by other means such as being bestowed upon, or inherited by blood, or in other forms where your magic ability is innate instead of "learned". Not everybody thought the same way as you did when creating their characters, where you MUST be very "smart" to understand the magic and have great powerful spells. It COULD be a logical theory but it's NOT a universal fact, as magic is not real, so how it should work is different depending on the opinion of each person. All this time you didn't put much emphasis on presenting your opinion that people MUST be very intellegent to be have great magic powers, so how were people supposed to know how the exact mechanics of YOUR" ideal world with magic" works?
But in the end I still only stride mainly on one argument, that the community and inhabitants of the world of Illarion has been shaped by the mechanics of the world that was in place and this is a fact that cannot be changed. Some characters have developed into magicians that play an integral role of the existing community and giving it atmosphere. Is the need for this change really so great that these people's roles are expendable??
You might not understand what I mean, because you don't play an actual active role in the community in the world of Illarion, and quite honestly I don't think you know enough about what the world of Illarion is like now without playing in it for a period of time. It isn't something you can know just by reading logs or listening to less than a handful of GMs.
But in the end I still only stride mainly on one argument, that the community and inhabitants of the world of Illarion has been shaped by the mechanics of the world that was in place and this is a fact that cannot be changed. Some characters have developed into magicians that play an integral role of the existing community and giving it atmosphere. Is the need for this change really so great that these people's roles are expendable??
You might not understand what I mean, because you don't play an actual active role in the community in the world of Illarion, and quite honestly I don't think you know enough about what the world of Illarion is like now without playing in it for a period of time. It isn't something you can know just by reading logs or listening to less than a handful of GMs.
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Strong words from Dyluck here, but true.
When I created my character, I had no idea on how the game worked, I was convinced by my friend to simply try it out. I had no idea that magic even existed in this game, and frankly I didn't care at the time. But then time went on, and I grew fond of Illarion. I found out about magic, and I quickly grew attatched to it, since I always play the role of a mage in every game. I picked up the magic quickly and it worked very well with my attributes the way they were. I even then changed my name to a wizards name so I could play the role better. And now I cannot play the role after all this work. I have this massive skill for hept and yeg and many others, but cant cast a spell with them!
@Damien:
Kind of stupid having all the old mages suddenly lose their abilities. Here's a story:
"Well, I was out in the forest, and all of the sudden a voice came to me and said, You may no longer cast spells. The end."
Really great RP explaination. Another example (mine):
"My fellow citizens, I have decided upon leaving Illarion for the final time since the magical energy that once occupied this land no longer flows. bye."
(Edited by Astral at 8:02 pm on April 9, 2002)
When I created my character, I had no idea on how the game worked, I was convinced by my friend to simply try it out. I had no idea that magic even existed in this game, and frankly I didn't care at the time. But then time went on, and I grew fond of Illarion. I found out about magic, and I quickly grew attatched to it, since I always play the role of a mage in every game. I picked up the magic quickly and it worked very well with my attributes the way they were. I even then changed my name to a wizards name so I could play the role better. And now I cannot play the role after all this work. I have this massive skill for hept and yeg and many others, but cant cast a spell with them!
@Damien:
Kind of stupid having all the old mages suddenly lose their abilities. Here's a story:
"Well, I was out in the forest, and all of the sudden a voice came to me and said, You may no longer cast spells. The end."
Really great RP explaination. Another example (mine):
"My fellow citizens, I have decided upon leaving Illarion for the final time since the magical energy that once occupied this land no longer flows. bye."
Exactly.Quote: from martin on 4:50 am on April 9, 2002
i mean, you are forced to type in a number which is (IMO) quite important and which *cannot* be changed anymore without knowing what the number means.
(Edited by Astral at 8:02 pm on April 9, 2002)
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At least give the opportunity to slowly redistribute the status-points, mainly also because new players don't know the effectiveness of your numbers... Just because there is a range between 2 and 19 will not mean (at least not for me) that the average person wandering around, knowing nothing about a sepcific issue has the "value" 10. Just out of my feeling i would presume the average lays way below, so if you set your strength to 10 you are stronger than most of the others, and if I set my magic ability to 13 by creating a char, maybe even this is my strongest stat, i think of being quite a decent mage. If the admin of the game thinks different, where shall I know this by creating the char? IF you REALLY want to have 100% realistic values then you should chage the value 10 to value 0, set everybodys starting values at 0 and give 5 points to distribute. If you want more you have to set -1, -2 etc to the other stats, because right now the values dont really represent your way of thinking in creating the shape of a role.
I'm writing too much, but another example with the values of strength:
Let's have a look at the different points of view considering the effectiveness of the stats:
The average player imagines 2 as damn weak, 6 as quite normal, 11 as a normal warrior, 15 as a very strong warrior and 19 as a hercules-like hero.
The Hardcore Realistic player imagines 2 as damn weak 6 as underaverage 11 as a normal person 15 as a bit of a trained smith and 19 as a normal warrior
I don't see the difference in the will of Roleplaying (especially Bror always posts, that if you should roleplay and not complain about your stats). In my eyes this change punishes the Roleplayers and doesnt help them. Let me explain this: A Powergamer looks what he needs, maxes them out and is happy in being the chief. The Roleplayer imagines what he wants to play and sets values for his status points that he thinks are able to achieve for the person with this history and represent the overall ability. If one wants to create an elven archer who studied long to achieve a small level of magical ability, where would you set dex, str, int and which spells would you think he can use?
I think many will set dex to max, str to ~8 and int to ~13. This is an transfer from my imagination to an fixed way of expression in numbers. If both sides have a different understanding of how to interprete these values, more misunderstandings will happen in the future. And to the question with the spells: I would let him be able to cast light magic missiles like fire-, ice-bolts, small gusts of wind, set a tree on fire, as in a fantasy world with spirits and mana, resurrection and demons setting a tree on fire is like for us lighting a cig.
And lastly, saying that 2 represents dumb and 11 represents just average, and as you can see in RL average ppl can't cast magic, too, so those 9 stat-points you just spent are worth a can of nothing, is in my eyes one of the greatest imbalancings of a game I have ever seen. Just remember, Illarion is a GAME, and therefore gameplay has 1st priority, realism only comes 2nd. And this scale of staus is not the one which in my eyes improves the gameplay in any way. If you want a game that is mainly based on realism, then a Fantasy world is purely the wrong place to set it. Magic, Demons and Myths are the things that bring the fun and the interest into these worlds and when you start arguing about Realism you only waste the world others tried to build up with much of their time.
I'm writing too much, but another example with the values of strength:
Let's have a look at the different points of view considering the effectiveness of the stats:
The average player imagines 2 as damn weak, 6 as quite normal, 11 as a normal warrior, 15 as a very strong warrior and 19 as a hercules-like hero.
The Hardcore Realistic player imagines 2 as damn weak 6 as underaverage 11 as a normal person 15 as a bit of a trained smith and 19 as a normal warrior
I don't see the difference in the will of Roleplaying (especially Bror always posts, that if you should roleplay and not complain about your stats). In my eyes this change punishes the Roleplayers and doesnt help them. Let me explain this: A Powergamer looks what he needs, maxes them out and is happy in being the chief. The Roleplayer imagines what he wants to play and sets values for his status points that he thinks are able to achieve for the person with this history and represent the overall ability. If one wants to create an elven archer who studied long to achieve a small level of magical ability, where would you set dex, str, int and which spells would you think he can use?
I think many will set dex to max, str to ~8 and int to ~13. This is an transfer from my imagination to an fixed way of expression in numbers. If both sides have a different understanding of how to interprete these values, more misunderstandings will happen in the future. And to the question with the spells: I would let him be able to cast light magic missiles like fire-, ice-bolts, small gusts of wind, set a tree on fire, as in a fantasy world with spirits and mana, resurrection and demons setting a tree on fire is like for us lighting a cig.
And lastly, saying that 2 represents dumb and 11 represents just average, and as you can see in RL average ppl can't cast magic, too, so those 9 stat-points you just spent are worth a can of nothing, is in my eyes one of the greatest imbalancings of a game I have ever seen. Just remember, Illarion is a GAME, and therefore gameplay has 1st priority, realism only comes 2nd. And this scale of staus is not the one which in my eyes improves the gameplay in any way. If you want a game that is mainly based on realism, then a Fantasy world is purely the wrong place to set it. Magic, Demons and Myths are the things that bring the fun and the interest into these worlds and when you start arguing about Realism you only waste the world others tried to build up with much of their time.
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Sorry for posting again in this thread, but I have to say one additional thing, most likely personal to Bror:
Quote: "The people who have chosen to play a mage with low intelligence, have mainly created the character, because they have known how the game works, not because they have imagined a character concept with these attributes.
This is a roleplaying game. Chose your stats, as they fit your character concept, NOT as you think you get the most advantages of the game system. If you do or have done anyway - your problem."
This is a really self-righteous and snooty post of you. Where did you take the right to judge those players who took a character concept of a mid-intelligent mage? This role doesnt fit in your current understanding of roleplaying and therefore is not regarded as roleplaying for you. I have said it a dozen times before, but this is a misinterpretation of a scale of numbers, and dont be so arrogant to think of your way as the ultimate way; I see this is one possibility, but also take into consideration there may be some better roleplayers than you (I don't mean me with this!) just with a slightly other one. If you want to play an adept of a magic academy, a monk or even a paladin, this is roleplaying, and just because you would set their values in another way will not mean that they "created the character, because they have known how the game works, not because they have imagined a character concept with these attributes". Maybe they have created the character just how they imagined him, but you are only not willing to accept their thoughts or just are not able to interprete their expressions in those numbers right?
Quote: "The people who have chosen to play a mage with low intelligence, have mainly created the character, because they have known how the game works, not because they have imagined a character concept with these attributes.
This is a roleplaying game. Chose your stats, as they fit your character concept, NOT as you think you get the most advantages of the game system. If you do or have done anyway - your problem."
This is a really self-righteous and snooty post of you. Where did you take the right to judge those players who took a character concept of a mid-intelligent mage? This role doesnt fit in your current understanding of roleplaying and therefore is not regarded as roleplaying for you. I have said it a dozen times before, but this is a misinterpretation of a scale of numbers, and dont be so arrogant to think of your way as the ultimate way; I see this is one possibility, but also take into consideration there may be some better roleplayers than you (I don't mean me with this!) just with a slightly other one. If you want to play an adept of a magic academy, a monk or even a paladin, this is roleplaying, and just because you would set their values in another way will not mean that they "created the character, because they have known how the game works, not because they have imagined a character concept with these attributes". Maybe they have created the character just how they imagined him, but you are only not willing to accept their thoughts or just are not able to interprete their expressions in those numbers right?
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and...who took a character concept of a mid-intelligent mage?
I assume, that these quotes are connected.If you want to play an adept of a magic academy, a monk or even a paladin...
Neither the adept of a magic academy, nor a monk, let alone a paladin will ever be able to cast that powerful spells, that master magi can.
Otherwise the adept, the monk or the paladin will be the master magi and not their roles anymore.
(Edited by Sharag at 6:36 pm on April 10, 2002)
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Hallo alle....
Da bin ich mal froh das was in Deutsch steht,weil mein Englisch zu wünschen lässt und dann kommt alles nur antworten in Englisch..*grrr
Schade ...kann man nicht mehr in Deutsch schreiben bitte
Bye Melle
Da bin ich mal froh das was in Deutsch steht,weil mein Englisch zu wünschen lässt und dann kommt alles nur antworten in Englisch..*grrr
Schade ...kann man nicht mehr in Deutsch schreiben bitte
Bye Melle
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I said:
Your second fault is, that I was talking about the common reason, why people choose to be a mage at the beginning, but choose a low intelligence too. I don't say, that no other reasons exist. I have played a mage with low magic abilities myself (not in Illarion), but first this is not common and second, I was aware of the consequences that this would have.
Rovac said:"The people who have chosen to play a mage with low intelligence, have mainly created the character, because they have known how the game works, not because they have imagined a character concept with these attributes.
As you can see, I am talking about low intelligence. You are talking about mid intelligence. This is your first fault. You won't tell me, that many people choose to ba a mage at the time they create their character and choose an intelligence of 3, 4 or 5 for other reasons as the knowledge of the game system, do you?Where did you take the right to judge those players who took a character concept of a mid-intelligent mage? This role doesnt fit in your current understanding of roleplaying and therefore is not regarded as roleplaying for you.
Your second fault is, that I was talking about the common reason, why people choose to be a mage at the beginning, but choose a low intelligence too. I don't say, that no other reasons exist. I have played a mage with low magic abilities myself (not in Illarion), but first this is not common and second, I was aware of the consequences that this would have.
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@Sharag: Don't you think an adept of a magic school would become a better mage after he's learned there and graduated? Character concepts and roles develop and it's always possible that a student might one day become better than or as good as the master. Whether or not the adept is as good as the master just because he can cast the same spells as him is a different kind of argument which will depend on each person's opinion. In my opinion, I think don't think the adept is just as good of a "mage" just because he can cast the same spells as his master.
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I think people with low intellect had it pretty hard before, casting only a couple ra kels before running out of mana. I suggested simply adding a system that makes it more difficult and less effective for a lower intellect mage to cast strong spells, with the addition of the mana requirement. But all I hear are "Do you think that a dumb person could come up with an award winning theory as easily as a Nobel Prize winner" or some comment along those lines. Read my posts carefully, did I ever suggest that it should be easy for a less intelligent person? I think not. Did I ever suggest that it would be fast? I think not. Then why all this crap about it being easy? I put a proposal out for a reason, but if you dont want to read it or think about, that's fine. You game designers may not like it, but frankly, that's not what matters. It is what the players think is reasonable. Or else you will have this game which is totally right to you, but no players in it! What a great idea! Just continue on changing things which all people are against and watch what happens. This game seems to revolve around the ideas that JRR Tolkien had. You dont have to copy everything! That is just one person's interpretation of things. Make up something on your own, dont just rely on other people's work. Do you think that JRR Tolkien changed his book because Aristotle or someone had said some little thing about how magic should be? I think not once again.
Was it ever taken into consideration what would happen to the guilds? Damien would tell you if you asked that this new magic system just KILLS the Magic Academy. One of your most trusted and looked up to guilds is now ruined! They cannot continue, ALL the mage tests are completely ruined. Just look what has happened to it! Dyluck is now so angry he doesn't care anymore, I am almost the same. I have almost lost all hope that this game will ever develop into a unique and truly fun experience.
And I expect combat to change again sometime soon. But it would never be taken into consideration that the School of Combat would be ruined if it still existed. What does it take so that these things might be considered before this? Does the person running it also have to be a person on the development team?
I hope Peggy is doing well with the game (s)he is planning, I'll be one of the first players. Then maybe I can get some proposals accross. Then maybe the game designers there will take into account all the hard work people have done to get where they are. Maybe then our roleplay wont be completely demolished for the sake of reading Lord of the Rings. Too late for Illarion, I have better things to do than dig up coal and ore in some powergamers paradise that is called a roleplaying game. This is basically minus the roleplay for alot of people. But I dont expect you to read this post. Just tell me another story of smart people winning Nobel prizes and dumb people who can never become anything more.
(Edited by Astral at 9:19 pm on April 10, 2002)
Was it ever taken into consideration what would happen to the guilds? Damien would tell you if you asked that this new magic system just KILLS the Magic Academy. One of your most trusted and looked up to guilds is now ruined! They cannot continue, ALL the mage tests are completely ruined. Just look what has happened to it! Dyluck is now so angry he doesn't care anymore, I am almost the same. I have almost lost all hope that this game will ever develop into a unique and truly fun experience.
And I expect combat to change again sometime soon. But it would never be taken into consideration that the School of Combat would be ruined if it still existed. What does it take so that these things might be considered before this? Does the person running it also have to be a person on the development team?
I hope Peggy is doing well with the game (s)he is planning, I'll be one of the first players. Then maybe I can get some proposals accross. Then maybe the game designers there will take into account all the hard work people have done to get where they are. Maybe then our roleplay wont be completely demolished for the sake of reading Lord of the Rings. Too late for Illarion, I have better things to do than dig up coal and ore in some powergamers paradise that is called a roleplaying game. This is basically minus the roleplay for alot of people. But I dont expect you to read this post. Just tell me another story of smart people winning Nobel prizes and dumb people who can never become anything more.
(Edited by Astral at 9:19 pm on April 10, 2002)
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These posts of Dyluck and Astral should make everybody think about what they are talking about, as I totally agree with them, although the consequences don't affect me as a person/character personally, but only my understanding of this community and its "social structures".
and @bror: my example was a person with 12 int, and in another post an elf mentioned he was trying to play a mid-high intelligent elf with just about that int but you considered him an low intelligent char, so this just for clearing up a misunderstanding in my former posts...
and @bror: my example was a person with 12 int, and in another post an elf mentioned he was trying to play a mid-high intelligent elf with just about that int but you considered him an low intelligent char, so this just for clearing up a misunderstanding in my former posts...
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You all knew, that this is a game in development.
Bror simply could have said: "I am sorry, guys, but we changed the database to a new much better one and all your characters are not compatible anymore. We have to delete them, but you knew about the risk, when you started to play."
Why don't you just welcome an improvement in character differencies?
Those of you, who say, that this is just a game, just get your character deleted and create a new one with the same name!
I know, why you don't want this! It's because all of your powergamed skills and properties.
Create a new character with fitting attributes of lower strength and dexterity and you will really experience how it is to be a sorcerer, who hardly can carry anything. THEN, you will have much better roleplay and you still are a part of the community. Gaining skills is still pretty fast, with or without powergaming.
I think, one day there will also be restrictions for certain items, like plate armours or knights' shields. Then the warriors will have the same disadvantages.
Hey, you want the developers of the game only want the players want? Why not say: "We all want 1000 silver ingots. We are the players. You have to obey!"
A developer must have to freedom to form the game after his imaginations. Sometimes, things have to happen, that most people dislike.
Who of you really wants to pay taxes? Imagine, you go to your government and demand the total abolishment of all taxes? They would laugh at you.
But here, people still talk with you and try to justify the changes.
Future changes will surely re-balance the game.
(Edited by Sharag at 2:54 pm on April 11, 2002)
Bror simply could have said: "I am sorry, guys, but we changed the database to a new much better one and all your characters are not compatible anymore. We have to delete them, but you knew about the risk, when you started to play."
Why don't you just welcome an improvement in character differencies?
Those of you, who say, that this is just a game, just get your character deleted and create a new one with the same name!
I know, why you don't want this! It's because all of your powergamed skills and properties.
Create a new character with fitting attributes of lower strength and dexterity and you will really experience how it is to be a sorcerer, who hardly can carry anything. THEN, you will have much better roleplay and you still are a part of the community. Gaining skills is still pretty fast, with or without powergaming.
I think, one day there will also be restrictions for certain items, like plate armours or knights' shields. Then the warriors will have the same disadvantages.
Hey, you want the developers of the game only want the players want? Why not say: "We all want 1000 silver ingots. We are the players. You have to obey!"
A developer must have to freedom to form the game after his imaginations. Sometimes, things have to happen, that most people dislike.
Who of you really wants to pay taxes? Imagine, you go to your government and demand the total abolishment of all taxes? They would laugh at you.
But here, people still talk with you and try to justify the changes.
Future changes will surely re-balance the game.
(Edited by Sharag at 2:54 pm on April 11, 2002)
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@Sharag:
You wonder why we just dont delete and restart? Perhaps you wouldnt know, but we have been playing for over half a year now, so have held with the game through all the stuff which has happened. We now have respected numbers and high skills. You may think that skills rise easily, but get them near the end and you will see just how much work it takes. And then It comes to our money. That money has been accumulated over MONTHS and MONTHS. I dont see why we should just drop everything and restart just because there are those who do not understand this. Investing all that time all over again, then to have the game change again soon anyways.
And your thing about people asking for things but not being able to get them... it works both ways. If bror suddenly wanted to change the value of an ingot up to 500 gold because he thought it was "what JRR Tolkien made up", you would just be happy and accept it? So now some people just doubled in wealth and you would be happy as before? I think not.
You wonder why we just dont delete and restart? Perhaps you wouldnt know, but we have been playing for over half a year now, so have held with the game through all the stuff which has happened. We now have respected numbers and high skills. You may think that skills rise easily, but get them near the end and you will see just how much work it takes. And then It comes to our money. That money has been accumulated over MONTHS and MONTHS. I dont see why we should just drop everything and restart just because there are those who do not understand this. Investing all that time all over again, then to have the game change again soon anyways.
And your thing about people asking for things but not being able to get them... it works both ways. If bror suddenly wanted to change the value of an ingot up to 500 gold because he thought it was "what JRR Tolkien made up", you would just be happy and accept it? So now some people just doubled in wealth and you would be happy as before? I think not.
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i don't understand your point(s).
1) nobody does something because tolkien said so. i haven't read tolkiens books, i just know them a little bit, but i guess he never introduced a spell-system, he had no IQ-tests for his characters etc.
2) this game is in *development*. that means: what is done now is probably not the final solution. the idea was to restrict spell-casting-abilties. it was done in a certain manner which was technically easy to implement (make spells depend on INT). this *may* change if someone comes up with a good idea and the programers have time to realize it. this was just the first step.
3) i don't understand why the magics-academy is ruined. are there no more magicians?
4) there will of course be a LOT of spells introduced (at least it is planned) in illarion. currently, there are jus a few, so that you have only a little amount of spells to select, especially when your INT is limited.
5) i don't like the current system as well, which has different reasons. i will try to figure out what can be changed and i hope that at least several of these points will be implemented. we are talking about game balance which is one of the most difficult tasks in such a game. the actual fighting-system is quite poor (IMO) and i guess there will be a lot of changes in the future (did i say that already?). these changes require *IDEAS*, not crying kiddies which want to be superheros.
martin
1) nobody does something because tolkien said so. i haven't read tolkiens books, i just know them a little bit, but i guess he never introduced a spell-system, he had no IQ-tests for his characters etc.
2) this game is in *development*. that means: what is done now is probably not the final solution. the idea was to restrict spell-casting-abilties. it was done in a certain manner which was technically easy to implement (make spells depend on INT). this *may* change if someone comes up with a good idea and the programers have time to realize it. this was just the first step.
3) i don't understand why the magics-academy is ruined. are there no more magicians?
4) there will of course be a LOT of spells introduced (at least it is planned) in illarion. currently, there are jus a few, so that you have only a little amount of spells to select, especially when your INT is limited.
5) i don't like the current system as well, which has different reasons. i will try to figure out what can be changed and i hope that at least several of these points will be implemented. we are talking about game balance which is one of the most difficult tasks in such a game. the actual fighting-system is quite poor (IMO) and i guess there will be a lot of changes in the future (did i say that already?). these changes require *IDEAS*, not crying kiddies which want to be superheros.
martin
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Quote: from Astral on 3:32 pm on April 11, 2002
@Sharag:
You wonder why we just dont delete and restart? Perhaps you wouldnt know, but we have been playing for over half a year now, so have held with the game through all the stuff which has happened. We now have respected numbers and high skills. You may think that skills rise easily, but get them near the end and you will see just how much work it takes. And then It comes to our money. That money has been accumulated over MONTHS and MONTHS. I dont see why we should just drop everything and restart just because there are those who do not understand this. Investing all that time all over again, then to have the game change again soon anyways.
And your thing about people asking for things but not being able to get them... it works both ways. If bror suddenly wanted to change the value of an ingot up to 500 gold because he thought it was "what JRR Tolkien made up", you would just be happy and accept it? So now some people just doubled in wealth and you would be happy as before? I think not.
You don't have to tell me about the rise of skills. I know myself, that it's a bit hard but it's still possible within some few days, if you play a bit. I don't want to start a discussion about powergaming here, but I am sure, everybody once made it or still makes it. Everybody telling me the opposite, lies. It's too easy in this game. Make it some more days and you will be, where you have been before.
And about your money: You all got very much of this money MUCH easier, just because of your increased strength and agility, you couldn't have with high intelligence. I don't say "all", but much of this money isn't earned honestly.
Your only very good argument here, is surely that you would lose the old numbers. This would really hurt me, too. But it really seems to me, that your magic is worth much more than these numbers.
BTW, you have not answered my argument about the "new database" and I really don't understand what you want to tell me with your example about the doubled ingot price...
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@Martin:
Look at every change in the magic system. The only thing ever used to justify this is "because in lord of the rings....".
And I have put my proposal up several times about this.
And about the magic academy. Have you ever looked at the website? Have you ever seen the tests and the system that Dyluck devised? Take a good look at it. "3RD Grade spellcaster: cast the spells HEPT KEL and yeg jus at 70%". Now do you see the problem? If you have a better way of organising the tests now, tell me, or else "it's ruined".
And who said anything about superheroes? I played the role of a MAGE, not a superhero. There's a difference. My background story (7000 words) was about playing the role of a mage, but i guess that's all ruined too.
Maybe I should get someone to translate my proposal into GERMAN, then maybe people might not be so snooty as to overlook it.
@Sharag:
Sure, it is easy to powergame fighting skills, maybe magic resistance, but not craftsman and magic skills. In magic there are so many skills, so if you want to powergame, you would have to buy ALOT of potions to get anywhere.
And my example with the ingot prices is this: The people who carried lots of ingots at the time would become twice as rich, putting an even bigger gap between them and the poor people. Or say you were in the process of selling things but had not got the ingots yet. This gives others an unfair advantage on you, does it not? And in the past, Warriors have had enough of an advantage over mages with the OLD magic system. This just makes it worse.
Or perhaps you understand this one better: You are a warrior/archer. Then suddenly bror comes in and says, you need a dexterity of 12+ to use arrows. You had a dexterity of 10. Now you could not fight off mages because they cast range spells. How would you feel? This is just like all the mages who can no longer cast paralyze and must use ra kel to defend themselves.
And the database thing: At least it happens to EVERYONE, not just one group. If it was fair to everyone, it would only be a slight inconvenience. I would prefer that over this new magic system anyday.
Look at every change in the magic system. The only thing ever used to justify this is "because in lord of the rings....".
And I have put my proposal up several times about this.
Yes, That's it! Well put. If they are reading this now, they have had plenty of time.Quote: from martin on 9:46 am on April 11, 2002
....and the programers have time to realize it....
And about the magic academy. Have you ever looked at the website? Have you ever seen the tests and the system that Dyluck devised? Take a good look at it. "3RD Grade spellcaster: cast the spells HEPT KEL and yeg jus at 70%". Now do you see the problem? If you have a better way of organising the tests now, tell me, or else "it's ruined".
And who said anything about superheroes? I played the role of a MAGE, not a superhero. There's a difference. My background story (7000 words) was about playing the role of a mage, but i guess that's all ruined too.
Maybe I should get someone to translate my proposal into GERMAN, then maybe people might not be so snooty as to overlook it.
@Sharag:
Sure, it is easy to powergame fighting skills, maybe magic resistance, but not craftsman and magic skills. In magic there are so many skills, so if you want to powergame, you would have to buy ALOT of potions to get anywhere.
Oh, is that so? What is so dishonest about spending DAYS digging and smithing? Explain that one, if you will.Quote: from Sharag on 10:03 am on April 11, 2002
I don't say "all", but much of this money isn't earned honestly.
And my example with the ingot prices is this: The people who carried lots of ingots at the time would become twice as rich, putting an even bigger gap between them and the poor people. Or say you were in the process of selling things but had not got the ingots yet. This gives others an unfair advantage on you, does it not? And in the past, Warriors have had enough of an advantage over mages with the OLD magic system. This just makes it worse.
Or perhaps you understand this one better: You are a warrior/archer. Then suddenly bror comes in and says, you need a dexterity of 12+ to use arrows. You had a dexterity of 10. Now you could not fight off mages because they cast range spells. How would you feel? This is just like all the mages who can no longer cast paralyze and must use ra kel to defend themselves.
And the database thing: At least it happens to EVERYONE, not just one group. If it was fair to everyone, it would only be a slight inconvenience. I would prefer that over this new magic system anyday.
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@time:
our time is limited. in the last 3 days, i worked from 8:00am till 11:30pm with only ONE break (for dinner) at university. i even work saturdays and sundays, i do not make graphics, however i'm not sure if e.g. bror has a lot more time than me.
more tomorrow.
martin
our time is limited. in the last 3 days, i worked from 8:00am till 11:30pm with only ONE break (for dinner) at university. i even work saturdays and sundays, i do not make graphics, however i'm not sure if e.g. bror has a lot more time than me.
more tomorrow.
martin
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@Sharag: On a personal note that might only refer to Dyluck in particular, having high strength to carry things isn't the only thing that affects how you earned your money. Half of the silver in Dyluck's poseesion comes from Magic Academy exam fees, some come as a donation from other players who's support had been gained after interacting with them, contributions from treaties and deals, buying low selling high, and other roleplay "businesses". You don't really think I got over 1500 silver just by mining tons of ore with superior strength and smithing all day do you?
About your skills, it might be easy to raise fighitings skills and maybe only a few useful runes, but it is extremely difficult to raise all 18 magic skills to back up. Some people only have things like mes, pen, hept, kel, at the "maximum" and then all the useless runes way low, but it's not so easy to get back to where you were, when 17 of your magic skills are all within 2mm of the "maximum" One might say that you don't even need to master half of these useless runes, but that's how much I've backed up Dyluck's development into his reputation and role. I mean why do you think I do it? It doesn't feel that great just to work up all these useless runes to almost "max" just to look at them by yourself. Well ok, maybe just a little.
But all of this is just refering to Dyluck personally, just some personal rambling because I'm feeling so forsaken right now, so none of this proves anything in general and I guess all I'm just saying is that the things you said don't apply to Dyluck.
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@About the Magic Academy...
It's not so difficult for me to re-organize the exams, so that spells like hept kel and ra kel qwan needs to be cast by only by very high level students, and make the system work for future students.
But what about the existing students? They've shown that they had the ability to cast these spells and do them well, passing the exams and graduating and earning titles. They play to the role of great wizards that they've become, but now all of a sudden it all disappears. How do you explain that all these students who studied at a magic academy for so long, passed so many spellcasting exams and graduated, proving their ability, and now all of a sudden they can't cast these spells anymore. The only way to explain this is to force a development of your character storyline that you never wanted.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bror blames us that we should have known that if we planned to be a great mage, we should have put our intellegence to the highest, but if it's really SO obvious and important as you say, that you needed intellegence to be a great magician, why didn't you implement this system to enforce this concept right from the beginning? Why didn't you talk about this in the pop up windows of the character creation screen instead of putting a button called "Advice" which only explains how your character attributes will get you the "best advantage in the game system" as you say, instead of giving you advice for how your attributes should affect your roleplay?
My summary once again is that: Just how much your intellgence affects your ability to become a great mage is still a matter of opinion, (which I stress once again), and that you have every right to make the mechanics of Illarion based on this opinion of yours, but you did NOT tell and emphasize this opinion to us before, and now we are getting blamed for not having held the same opinion as you.
About your skills, it might be easy to raise fighitings skills and maybe only a few useful runes, but it is extremely difficult to raise all 18 magic skills to back up. Some people only have things like mes, pen, hept, kel, at the "maximum" and then all the useless runes way low, but it's not so easy to get back to where you were, when 17 of your magic skills are all within 2mm of the "maximum" One might say that you don't even need to master half of these useless runes, but that's how much I've backed up Dyluck's development into his reputation and role. I mean why do you think I do it? It doesn't feel that great just to work up all these useless runes to almost "max" just to look at them by yourself. Well ok, maybe just a little.
But all of this is just refering to Dyluck personally, just some personal rambling because I'm feeling so forsaken right now, so none of this proves anything in general and I guess all I'm just saying is that the things you said don't apply to Dyluck.
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@About the Magic Academy...
It's not so difficult for me to re-organize the exams, so that spells like hept kel and ra kel qwan needs to be cast by only by very high level students, and make the system work for future students.
But what about the existing students? They've shown that they had the ability to cast these spells and do them well, passing the exams and graduating and earning titles. They play to the role of great wizards that they've become, but now all of a sudden it all disappears. How do you explain that all these students who studied at a magic academy for so long, passed so many spellcasting exams and graduated, proving their ability, and now all of a sudden they can't cast these spells anymore. The only way to explain this is to force a development of your character storyline that you never wanted.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bror blames us that we should have known that if we planned to be a great mage, we should have put our intellegence to the highest, but if it's really SO obvious and important as you say, that you needed intellegence to be a great magician, why didn't you implement this system to enforce this concept right from the beginning? Why didn't you talk about this in the pop up windows of the character creation screen instead of putting a button called "Advice" which only explains how your character attributes will get you the "best advantage in the game system" as you say, instead of giving you advice for how your attributes should affect your roleplay?
My summary once again is that: Just how much your intellgence affects your ability to become a great mage is still a matter of opinion, (which I stress once again), and that you have every right to make the mechanics of Illarion based on this opinion of yours, but you did NOT tell and emphasize this opinion to us before, and now we are getting blamed for not having held the same opinion as you.
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About planning ahead... When I first came to this game I had no idea what it was about. I knew very little about roleplay and did not know what I was going to be so I kind of balanced my skills. I became a very good mage and in the Magic Academy I reached the title of Rune Knight. Being a Mage has helped my role-play yet I did not know anything before I played, not even what role my charactor would take on. If I had known what i would have done I would have put more skills to intelligence and essence among other things and lowered my strength. Although I can still role-play as a Merchant I am defenseless because I am not good at hand to hand combat so I can not help defend others, never mind myself. In essence I have become defenseless.
I bet most of the people in the Magic Academy had know idea they would become a powerful mage, instead of a druid. In essence our titles for role-play are useless do to the new system; they are a thing of the past and many of us can't role-play what we were. I say if the amount of spells a mage can cast is based on Intelligence so should a druids! If you do not know what you are doing when mixing something such as chemicals it can blow up in your face. Or why not have it based on itelligence but over time, say X number of hours online you can understand a rune or "learn" how to make a potion.
I bet most of the people in the Magic Academy had know idea they would become a powerful mage, instead of a druid. In essence our titles for role-play are useless do to the new system; they are a thing of the past and many of us can't role-play what we were. I say if the amount of spells a mage can cast is based on Intelligence so should a druids! If you do not know what you are doing when mixing something such as chemicals it can blow up in your face. Or why not have it based on itelligence but over time, say X number of hours online you can understand a rune or "learn" how to make a potion.
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Yes, that's one system of doing it. I still dont understand what is so wrong about simply making it harder for people with lesser intelligence. I think I have posted it over 5 times, but with no responses. But that is the way Bror does things, if he likes the idea, he will not say anything, or perhaps even dismiss it publically at first. Who knows, it may pop up in a day or two without us knowing. But that is unlikely. Would someone please tell me anything wrong with my proposal (dont base it solely on what I said here, I have described it in great detail in previous posts)! It seems to be a fair compromise, "dumb" mages have an even greater disadvantage, and the old wizards are happy because their skills are high enough to cancel the effect out. But it does come down hard on the beginner mages, and I think that was what Bror was trying to do here. I dont think he was just doing this to get a big rise out of us old mages, rather he was trying to keep newbies from coming master mages in a matter of days. I mean, why raise the price of books if he is targeting older wizards? If I am totally wrong about this, Bror please tell me.
And I am like Dyluck about my magic. Runes like tah, sav, and luk are useless to almost all mages. It is just like a powergamer to ignore these skills and only develop good ones like hept, yeg, and kel. But I have developed all (very very many) of my skills (over my time) for the sake of roleplaying my character as a "Grand Mage". If you think that this is so wrong and this is irrelevant because of my 15 intellect, please speak up.
And I am like Dyluck about my magic. Runes like tah, sav, and luk are useless to almost all mages. It is just like a powergamer to ignore these skills and only develop good ones like hept, yeg, and kel. But I have developed all (very very many) of my skills (over my time) for the sake of roleplaying my character as a "Grand Mage". If you think that this is so wrong and this is irrelevant because of my 15 intellect, please speak up.
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> Look at every change in the magic system. The only thing ever used
> to justify this is "because in lord of the rings....".
thats simply not true.
1) in LOTR there isn't a spellcasting-system. LOTR are *books* and spells
are never explained in there. read it or watch the film of the first
part.
2) the reason why this was introduced is more than obvious: everyone had
the abilty to cast every spell equally good (if the skill was high enough).
this is everything but realistic. there are several ways to change that,
most of them require hard programing on the server -- which is *NOT*
possible at the moment! a simple but effective way is to the one which was
choosen now: it does, what it should do and it's easy to code. this is
the main reason.
3) every game we know of (and there's NO game named "LOTR" or something!)
your magical abilties depend on INT (as far as INT exists in the concerning
game). i talk about online-games, offline-games and p&p. this makes sense.
4) game balance. a pure fighter is an excellent mage with less mana. is
that realistic?
5) there will be further spells. a lot of them!
6) there will be ways to change your stats at least within a certain amount.
7) maybe there will even be another solution for the magic-problem.
@time once again: no, they do not have a lot of time.
@magic academy: you tell me that there is one single (less important) thing
that has to be changed. well, then change it. but this does not ruin the
magical academy. this is a nonsense-argument. you can easily find other,
maybe even better exams. use your imagination.
@rpg&backgroundstory: i honestly do not care about your background-story.
i have read good ones and bad ones, i haven't read yours, but as far as i
see it you lack fantasy. i could imagine more than just 1 way to save every
backgroundstory.
this is a quick&dirty-solution and surely not the last word. making spells
"simply" more difficult to cast for lower INT requires quite some work on
the server, and that's a (time-)problem at the moment. i can only repeat:
illarion is in development.
martin
> to justify this is "because in lord of the rings....".
thats simply not true.
1) in LOTR there isn't a spellcasting-system. LOTR are *books* and spells
are never explained in there. read it or watch the film of the first
part.
2) the reason why this was introduced is more than obvious: everyone had
the abilty to cast every spell equally good (if the skill was high enough).
this is everything but realistic. there are several ways to change that,
most of them require hard programing on the server -- which is *NOT*
possible at the moment! a simple but effective way is to the one which was
choosen now: it does, what it should do and it's easy to code. this is
the main reason.
3) every game we know of (and there's NO game named "LOTR" or something!)
your magical abilties depend on INT (as far as INT exists in the concerning
game). i talk about online-games, offline-games and p&p. this makes sense.
4) game balance. a pure fighter is an excellent mage with less mana. is
that realistic?
5) there will be further spells. a lot of them!
6) there will be ways to change your stats at least within a certain amount.
7) maybe there will even be another solution for the magic-problem.
@time once again: no, they do not have a lot of time.
@magic academy: you tell me that there is one single (less important) thing
that has to be changed. well, then change it. but this does not ruin the
magical academy. this is a nonsense-argument. you can easily find other,
maybe even better exams. use your imagination.
@rpg&backgroundstory: i honestly do not care about your background-story.
i have read good ones and bad ones, i haven't read yours, but as far as i
see it you lack fantasy. i could imagine more than just 1 way to save every
backgroundstory.
this is a quick&dirty-solution and surely not the last word. making spells
"simply" more difficult to cast for lower INT requires quite some work on
the server, and that's a (time-)problem at the moment. i can only repeat:
illarion is in development.
martin
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@martin: I explained about the magic academy that the particular one test is not the problem. It's all the existing students who've already graduated or proved themselves to be great magicians, who all of sudden don't have the magic that they proved to have and were able to do well before.
@:everyone had the abilty to cast every spell equally good (if the skill was high enough):
That's because there's barely a difference in spell power and efficiency when everyone's skill has reached a "max"
@i honestly do not care about your background-story. i have read good ones and bad ones, i haven't read yours, but as far as i see it you lack fantasy:
That's the problem I have with you people, who only care about the game system and balance, and not the exisiting character roles and their importance in the background community in Illarion.
And who's story are you talking about? And if you said you never read that person's story, how do you know it lacks fantasy? It seems to be once again just a difference of opinion in how something should be in a fantasy world.
@i could imagine more than just 1 way to save every backgroundstory:
I think what you mean is you can "change" it, not "save" it. So in other words, force your chatracter into a storyline that you didn't want.
@every game we know of (and there's NO game named "LOTR" or something!)
your magical abilties depend on INT (as far as INT exists in the concerning
game). i talk about online-games, offline-games and p&p. this makes sense:
btw: there IS a game called Lord of the Rings for supernintendo
How exactly INT affects magic is different in each game. In some games, INT affects spell power, in others INT affects mana consumption, and some INT affects magic protection. I haven't seen a game where INT actually affects whether or not you can cast all the spells, but even if you choose to adapt this system, the idea that not having the maximum intellegence will prevent you from roleplaying as a good mage who can cast all the spells is an idea that was not told to the players before who now suffer for it. Like you said, this is just a quick and dirty solution. You said this problem is so obvious and unrealistic, yet you never implemented this sytem to enforce it from the beginning until now a few years later.
In my opinion, you're looking the problem in the wrong way. In fact, I don't hear many complain about mages casting the same spells, only that there are too many mages. But I think the overabundance of mages would have been reduced when non-roleplayers get bored of this game, or when the job system comes in. Now, the current "solution" will just lead to the role-abandoning powergaming cycle that Damien mentioned. Also the main player base who stay in this game is made up of roleplayers, and now less of them have enough firepower to at least "disable" a strong newbie pk for the immediate time should they should up, so these pks can cause more trouble easily before a GM or Bror can step in, causing even more damage to the rp atmoshpere.
I seem to have found another problem and correct me if I'm wrong, but you need intellegence of 18 to cast all the spells, but the max int for lizards and orcs are 17?? Is this another opinion that orcs and lizardmen can't be great magicians which was thrown on us without prior warning?
(Edited by Dyluck at 2:06 am on April 12, 2002)
@:everyone had the abilty to cast every spell equally good (if the skill was high enough):
That's because there's barely a difference in spell power and efficiency when everyone's skill has reached a "max"
@i honestly do not care about your background-story. i have read good ones and bad ones, i haven't read yours, but as far as i see it you lack fantasy:
That's the problem I have with you people, who only care about the game system and balance, and not the exisiting character roles and their importance in the background community in Illarion.
And who's story are you talking about? And if you said you never read that person's story, how do you know it lacks fantasy? It seems to be once again just a difference of opinion in how something should be in a fantasy world.
@i could imagine more than just 1 way to save every backgroundstory:
I think what you mean is you can "change" it, not "save" it. So in other words, force your chatracter into a storyline that you didn't want.
@every game we know of (and there's NO game named "LOTR" or something!)
your magical abilties depend on INT (as far as INT exists in the concerning
game). i talk about online-games, offline-games and p&p. this makes sense:
btw: there IS a game called Lord of the Rings for supernintendo
How exactly INT affects magic is different in each game. In some games, INT affects spell power, in others INT affects mana consumption, and some INT affects magic protection. I haven't seen a game where INT actually affects whether or not you can cast all the spells, but even if you choose to adapt this system, the idea that not having the maximum intellegence will prevent you from roleplaying as a good mage who can cast all the spells is an idea that was not told to the players before who now suffer for it. Like you said, this is just a quick and dirty solution. You said this problem is so obvious and unrealistic, yet you never implemented this sytem to enforce it from the beginning until now a few years later.
In my opinion, you're looking the problem in the wrong way. In fact, I don't hear many complain about mages casting the same spells, only that there are too many mages. But I think the overabundance of mages would have been reduced when non-roleplayers get bored of this game, or when the job system comes in. Now, the current "solution" will just lead to the role-abandoning powergaming cycle that Damien mentioned. Also the main player base who stay in this game is made up of roleplayers, and now less of them have enough firepower to at least "disable" a strong newbie pk for the immediate time should they should up, so these pks can cause more trouble easily before a GM or Bror can step in, causing even more damage to the rp atmoshpere.
I seem to have found another problem and correct me if I'm wrong, but you need intellegence of 18 to cast all the spells, but the max int for lizards and orcs are 17?? Is this another opinion that orcs and lizardmen can't be great magicians which was thrown on us without prior warning?
(Edited by Dyluck at 2:06 am on April 12, 2002)
Veränderungen
@dyluck:
1) magic academy: i wasn't answering your text because i didn't even read it before writing my posting.
2) backgroundstory: if you want to, i stop creating graphics and stop thinking about gamedevelopment and concentrate on reading backgroundstories. i've got no problem with that.
i did never ever say that astrals story lacks fantasy -- i said HE lacks fantasy if he does not see a way to make his story consistent with his char (with limited magical abilties). read carefully what i write.
when i say "to save" i mean: leave it *unchanged*. that's it. if your backgroundstory was that you were born in city A and this city A was destroyed later on, how does your backgroundstory change then? IMO it simply does not change.
magic does change. backgroundstories do not.
characters are always forced in some kind of story. that's why we have rules and limitation. e.g. there is no super-weapon and a char with super-power and LASER coming out of his eyes etc. this of course might appear in your backgroundstory (e.g. you could imagine that magic was much stronger in those days and that the influence of god XY made it weaker or something). we had a problem and there had to be a *quick* and *easy* solution. that's it. if you have a better solution which is *quick* and *easy* as well, just post it.
3) LOTR: i wrote: "every game i know of...". i don't know this game.
4) that this came somehow sudden is not an argument against it.
there has to be some kind of limitation. i can't say more without repeating what i already have said.
this is NOT the final solution, this ist not even the final version of spells etc.
we currently have about 10 spells and we WANT to have about 60 or something (maybe even more). we WANT to have magical items (which maybe change your INT etc.), we WANT to have limitations for non-mages as well, we WANT to have potions that alter your stats for a certain time, we WANT to have a more complex system.
we HAD a problem we didn't think about well enough first which became more and more obvious and bror decided to do something about it.
what is your quick proposal? leave it like it was because we didn't mention that we will implement that 2 years ago?
well, we didn't mention that there will be a firesword as well, how about complaining that?
martin
1) magic academy: i wasn't answering your text because i didn't even read it before writing my posting.
2) backgroundstory: if you want to, i stop creating graphics and stop thinking about gamedevelopment and concentrate on reading backgroundstories. i've got no problem with that.
i did never ever say that astrals story lacks fantasy -- i said HE lacks fantasy if he does not see a way to make his story consistent with his char (with limited magical abilties). read carefully what i write.
when i say "to save" i mean: leave it *unchanged*. that's it. if your backgroundstory was that you were born in city A and this city A was destroyed later on, how does your backgroundstory change then? IMO it simply does not change.
magic does change. backgroundstories do not.
characters are always forced in some kind of story. that's why we have rules and limitation. e.g. there is no super-weapon and a char with super-power and LASER coming out of his eyes etc. this of course might appear in your backgroundstory (e.g. you could imagine that magic was much stronger in those days and that the influence of god XY made it weaker or something). we had a problem and there had to be a *quick* and *easy* solution. that's it. if you have a better solution which is *quick* and *easy* as well, just post it.
3) LOTR: i wrote: "every game i know of...". i don't know this game.
4) that this came somehow sudden is not an argument against it.
there has to be some kind of limitation. i can't say more without repeating what i already have said.
this is NOT the final solution, this ist not even the final version of spells etc.
we currently have about 10 spells and we WANT to have about 60 or something (maybe even more). we WANT to have magical items (which maybe change your INT etc.), we WANT to have limitations for non-mages as well, we WANT to have potions that alter your stats for a certain time, we WANT to have a more complex system.
we HAD a problem we didn't think about well enough first which became more and more obvious and bror decided to do something about it.
what is your quick proposal? leave it like it was because we didn't mention that we will implement that 2 years ago?
well, we didn't mention that there will be a firesword as well, how about complaining that?
martin