The Lyrenzia Foundation / Die Lyrenzia Vereinigung

Algoran · Post by **Algoran** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 7:49 pm

Dear Aragon,
Thankyou for your reply, and yours as well Dyluck.

My purpose in putting down what Ellaron was saying in simple terms was to remove any confusion. Unfortunately it seems I have still failed that is my fault not yours.

Ellarons first point was; whether or not the foundation would be making new laws? Forget about who they relate to at the moment that was not the question. Your reply was that yes the foundation would make new laws. Ellarons first point stands.

The second point was; will these laws be imposed on the other citizens of Trollsbane? Again it doesn't matter if everyone else is doing it or some people are doing it, that was not asked. The answer, backed up by examples, is yes. Ellarons second point still stands.

The third point was; Will these laws be backed up by force? Once more I have to caution you that whether this was already sometimes, or always, the case is beside the point and was not asked. Again, backed by example the answer was yes. Ellarons third point stands.

So we can conclude from this that your foundation is going to be making new laws, imposing them on the whole populace of Trollsbane and backing them up by force. If Ellarons argument is flawed please point out how, but only in relation to the foundation. The argument is not what other people are doing but what are you, the foundation, doing.

I believe you and your members need to get together and iron out the details of who your laws apply to as it seems that not all of you are singing from the same song sheet.

Caranthir the great · Post by **Caranthir the great** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 9:27 pm

I am a bit curious, who are you to tell what Ellaron's point was?
Ye are not Ellaron are ye?

Roke · Post by **Roke** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 10:02 pm

The unwritten laws, that are written down are for all citizens of Troll's Bane. Many of the buildings in Troll's Bane are owned by groups who belong to Lyrenzia, they could, if you do not obey the rules limit your access to places such as The Tavern or even The Library. These foremerly unwritten laws are for all citizens of Troll's Bane... they have just been written down so everyone can see what they acctually mean, since the people that acctually created these laws long before your time, or mine belong to Lyrenzia. They simply wanted to let everyone know what the laws acctually are.

The laws Lyrenzia makes in the future will, in all likelyhood will be for people who belong to Lyrenzia, be it individuals (hopefully in the future) and guilds. These laws will not neccesarily apply to all citizens but some laws, unless they face overwhelming cricism from many people may, although not likely, apply to all citizens. I say may because we cannot know what events will be brought upon our beautiful town and action will be needed.

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 11:37 pm

Woah, slow down. If we don't agree with Lyrenzia they can restrict our access to the buildings? That is the first step to them taking over the town, I guess...

Brendan Mason · Post by **Brendan Mason** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 11:39 pm

Paul, how can they take over buildings, which they already own, hmmm?

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 11:40 pm

Last time I checked, they were all for public access. And would the people who own the tavern really want to stop customers from coming?

Caranthir the great · Thu Apr 17, 2003 11:54 pm

They are open for public currently, but that doesn't mean that they would be so always and forever.
The buildings are owned by certain people or groups, who have the right to do what they wish with their property.

Roke · Post by **Roke** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 12:17 am

My point was, that your access could be restricted if you didn't obey the laws, although it will probably never happen, it is a possibility.

Algoran · Post by **Algoran** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 12:49 am

To Caranthir. I am not Ellaron I am his half brother. I am to Ellaron as chalk is to cheese. He has far more patience and intelligence in matters such as these. I Simply wrote what Ellaron wrote but simplified to take out any confusion. If you can see where I have misinterpreted his words please let me know and I will re-evaluate the situation as I see it. After all, I am open to opinion backed by example that shows I am wrong.

To Roke I thank you for your reply. So some of your members were the creators of the original laws? This interests me greatly and is completely new information. Might we know their names? As to the threat of limited access to certain buildings there is nothing I can do. They are owned by certain people and they have a right to refuse entry to anyone they see fit for any reason they see fit.
I'm a bit confused on your last point. Just to clarify, are you saying that the laws the foundation make, unless opposed by many people, might apply to all citizens of Trollsbane. If so could I ask do the opposing people
have to be members of the foundation? Sorry if I'm being a bit slow but bare with me.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 2:06 am

Algoran wrote: So we can conclude from this that your foundation is going to be making new laws, imposing them on the whole populace of Trollsbane and backing them up by force. If Ellarons argument is flawed please point out how, but only in relation to the foundation. The argument is not what other people are doing but what are you, the foundation, doing.

Once again I answer you that Ellaron's point is true, relative to the fact that Lyrenzia and the people are doing the same. You can say the tiger is big compared to the mouse if you want, but so is the panther. You can say the tiger is small compared to the elephant if you want, but so is the panther. Whether you want to say the tiger is big or small, it's up to you as long as you realize the same applies to the panther.

The others seem to be answering you in relative to the common misconception that nobody else is "making" and "imposing" laws.

But to simplify, as you can read from the rules that it only states what members of Lyrenzia must follow. It does not state what others must do, just as nobody ever tells says to "follow MY law", but obviously each person not in Lyrenzia upholds and enforce the specific law they believe, just as we do ours.

Algoran wrote: So some of your members were the creators of the original laws? This interests me greatly and is completely new information. Might we know their names?

It's rather difficult to define the point of origin isn't it? I think another way to phrase what Roke said is that many of Lyrenzia were here long ago reliative to the rest and so would be more likely to be going by a closer version of the "original law" than than those who came after us.

Algoran wrote: Just to clarify, are you saying that the laws the foundation make, unless opposed by many people, might apply to all citizens of Trollsbane. If so could I ask do the opposing people
have to be members of the foundation? Sorry if I'm being a bit slow but bare with me.

A person or group isn't going to impose a specific action on others if there's enough pressure from others not to, whether its inside pressure or outside pressure. The same could be said about Lyrenzia.

paul laffing wrote: Woah, slow down. If we don't agree with Lyrenzia they can restrict our access to the buildings? That is the first step to them taking over the town, I guess...

Those who can restrict your access to a building is the owner of a buidling, so you follow their laws while their in it, and it happens so that many owners use Lyrenzia law.

paul laffing wrote: And would the people who own the tavern really want to stop customers from coming?

If their "customers" burn tables, kill people, and steal, then I would somehow have to say....hmmm....yes?

Dyluck
Headmaster of the Magic Academy

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 4:18 am

Wait, but are the people who don't agree with some of things Lyrenzia does going to be represented? I mean, its like a king making all his counselors his best friends so that they never tell him anything bad about what he does.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 8:09 am

paul laffing wrote:Wait, but are the people who don't agree with some of things Lyrenzia does going to be represented? I mean, its like a king making all his counselors his best friends so that they never tell him anything bad about what he does.

First, your king example is incorrect. That's like complaining a guild leader only accepting people who follow the codex of the guild.

To answer your question, I first ask you a question:
Do I get represented if you do something I don't agree with?

If I don't agree with you I can tell you it, but if you continue, there's nothing I can do except maybe use force on you. If I'm well respected and a lot of other well respected people tell you the same, then there's a better chance you'll listen to my disagreement, right?

All the same with Lyrenzia.

~~~~
We would only be obliged to represent the entire population if we were its government, which we are not. We're only obliged to represent the population of Lyrenzia, which we govern in a sense, and there lies basically the whole concept of Lyrenzia. It isn't possible to represent or make decisons for "the entire population" since they can't be legitimately defined, so therefore we represent "a large population" that can be defined and therefore governed. Others who want to be governed and represented can then join that population. Currently that's only possible through an existing representitive of a defined and approved sub-population (so in other words, by being/joining a guild of Lyrenzia).

However, non-guild people will soon be able to vote representitives amongst themselves into the Lyrenzia Foundation, after we have completed our system that determines who they are, verifies their existance, approves adequate time of residency in Troll's Bane, and work out the details of their terms in office.

Dyluck
Headmaster of the Magic Academy

Viola Thistle · Post by **Viola Thistle** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 1:49 pm

paul laffing wrote:If I don't agree with you I can tell you it, but if you continue, there's nothing I can do except maybe use force on you.

There is always the option of refusing trade - refusing to buy and sell goods to an individual. If other's believe the individual is corrupt also and all choose to refuse trade, any individual would be in a sore state.

Viola Thistle

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 5:06 pm

Stop twisting my words, and my anology was perfectly correct in the way I used it. What is the point of surrounding yourself with people who will always agree with you? Without the constructive critism you get from a wide variety of people joining, you don't get your ideas fine tuned. But don't ask me, I'm only one of the citizens. I don't count.

Sir Gannon · Post by **Sir Gannon** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 5:45 pm

Gets up from talking around the fire and walks over to the wall to see what all the comotion is. Then after reading all of the posts scratches his head and decides to say a little something.

Well for all this talk of laws and laws people do and dont want to follow. Not to mention all this talk of 'voting' i find it kinda funny. For in my veiw no matter what no two, three or four people will ever agree on the same law in the same way. Like the casting law one person doesnt want ANY casting in town, while another would allow the healing spell and so on and so forth. From what i understand ( and vaugly

) All Lyrenzia Foundation is doing is FINNALY putting the unwritten laws into written ones! We can finnally show that trouble maker the written law

Well i have always followed and enforced these laws, and i still will. All this talk about laws and such still doesnt change the fact that we still need to enforce these laws. Oh well i said my little bit that is probably repeating someone. See you all in town.

Posts up his little message and goes back to the warm fire and his friends.

Adano Eles · Post by **Adano Eles** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 6:12 pm

I will try to make clear what Dyluck was trying to say.
First let us make an assumption. Let us assume that Lyrenzia was just one person.
As everyone else in Troll's Bane this person named Lyrenzia would be confronted with what is known as "the unwritten laws". However, as every person thinks in a different way he will also interpret those "unwritten laws" in a different way. So will Lyrenzia. Now everyone will go out and act according to what his interpretation of the laws tells him. If he sees someone violating them he will step in and stop the violation. However, the person he stopped had another law, a law which allowed this person to do what he did. Thus, our first person declared himself the ruler over the second person in this situation, telling him that the laws he believed in were wrong and forced the person to follow his own laws.
The person Lyrenzia would just do the same, with the same right as everyone else.
Now it happens that Lyrenzia is not just one person, but a coalition of several large guilds, with more then 70 members. But each of them acts as the the person Lyrenzia in the special situation where he or she enforces not his own interpretation, but the one Lyrenzia has declared as official for all its members. The point is that Lyrenzia as a whole has the same right to enforce its interpretation of the unwritten law as everyone else.

Now for the new laws.
Please read again what Aragon wrote. Lyrenzia might introduce one or another new law sometime, but this law will only apply to members of Lyrenzia. Like everyone else who unites people into a larger group would set up certain rules for people to follow to keep the group together, Lyrenzia would. Lyrenzia will enforce the unwritten law towards everyone, but those internal laws not. As long as you are no member of Lyrenzia, and do not act against members of Lyrenzia, this law will not apply to you.
Lyrenzia wants to be a save haven, a place where people can live in peace under the save cover of law and order, if they wish to. If you rather live in the anachic chaos we used to have before, then you can do so. At least this is how I interpret Lyrenzia.

Adano Eles

Knight of the
Student of the Khana Len; Apprentice of the Great Temple of the Five and Eleven

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 6:38 pm

Could I please have a list of all the guilds that are part of Lirensia?

Roke · Post by **Roke** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 6:42 pm

The Five original guilds:

The Order of The Grey Light
The Knights of The Grey Rose
Silberbrand
The Magic Academy
The Rangers

The new guilds (as far as I know)

The Silverstar Merchants

This is as far as I know, there may be more.

Algoran · Post by **Algoran** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 7:35 pm

Finally I think we are getting near the end of this discussion.

Dear Dyluck,
Your animal analogy is a good indication of the problem in this discourse. Some one asks you if a tiger is bigger than a mouse. You answer that "one might say that, just as one might say the panther is bigger than a mouse. Bigger than both of them though is the elephant. An Ilfridian elephant differs from an Arcadian elephant in the shape and size of its ears. In Arcadia, lion families are called prides."
The answer to the question though is "yes". The fog of information you supply, though interesting, only goes to hide the answer.

To an official spokesperson of the foundation.
I mean no disrespect to anyone but every time someone, who appears to be in the foundation, tells me what the foundation are planning, or have done, someone else, also a member, comes along and says that's not the case at all.

I just want to clarify.
The laws that are written now are the unwritten laws and apply to everybody. If the answer is yes I am happy with that. They are, as has been stated, what many people thought they were anyway.

No new laws made by the foundation will be applied to anyone except the foundations members.

Please try to answer in the same way the questions are asked, simply.

((The edit was because someone complained about India and Africa not existing in the world illarion is set in. Fair enough. See how nice I am.))

Aragon · Post by **Aragon** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 8:27 pm

Dear Algoran

Algoran wrote:Finally I think we are getting near the end of this discussion.
[...]
To an official spokesperson of the foundation.
[...]
I just want to clarify.
The laws that are written now are the unwritten laws and apply to everybody. If the answer is yes I am happy with that. They are, as has been stated, what many people thought they were anyway.

No new laws made by the foundation will be applied to anyone except the foundations members.

the simple answer is "yes".

Maybe some misunderstanding was caused to the fact, that we try to build Lyrenzia for people, speaking both languages. So it is sometimes harder to explain facts in a language wich isn't the mothertongue and also to understand all specific details spoken in a foreign language. I hope, you understand this. But on the other hand, it is a great plan to bring together these different groups.

Dear Paul Laffing

all important facts about Lyrenzia can be seen in their castle:
Lyrenzia Castle
There are also listed the guilds, which depends to Lyrenzia.

With kind regards to you both and blessings from Malachin,

Aragon ben Galwan
Earl and Templar of the Grey Rose
Priest of Malachin
Councilor of Lyrenzia

Algoran · Post by **Algoran** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 9:24 pm

Dear Aragon,
Thankyou for a clear and concise answer. We could of saved 14 parchments if this had been made clear earlier. Again I mean no offence but perhaps it would be an idea to ellect an official spokesperson in both languages. I am satisfied I now understand what you say your intentions are and so will leave this as it stands.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Sat Apr 19, 2003 12:07 am

paul laffing wrote: Stop twisting my words, and my anology was perfectly correct in the way I used it. What is the point of surrounding yourself with people who will always agree with you? Without the constructive critism you get from a wide variety of people joining, you don't get your ideas fine tuned. But don't ask me, I'm only one of the citizens. I don't count.

No. Your analogy was completely wrong. First of all there's no king, it's a deomocracy within Lyreniza. Secondly joining Lyrenzia isn't based on "friendship". Thirdly, nobody ever said you can't disagree with us. How effective your disagreement will be is dependant on variables that I already explained to you in the example of putting you in our shoes in my last post to you if you had bothered to read. Fourthly, letting a "wide variety" of people joining is different from letting "anybody" join. You can't join a population if you don't even agree with it's basic standards of living, just as you can't join a guild if you don't agree with it's codex.

Algoran wrote:To an official spokesperson of the foundation.
I mean no disrespect to anyone but every time someone, who appears to be in the foundation, tells me what the foundation are planning, or have done, someone else, also a member, comes along and says that's not the case at all.

Like I've told you a million times, it's relative to what you believe. What we are doing is no different that the common man, so whether you want to say that everyone is imposing law on each other or not, it doesn't really matter all that much to me.

The answers are fogged because they are. They are open to interpretation.
You ask me "Is the tiger big?" I answered you "If you think the pather is big, then the tiger is big. If you think it's small, then the tiger is small". It depends on your interpretation, not mine.

Algoran wrote: I just want to clarify.
The laws that are written now are the unwritten laws and apply to everybody. If the answer is yes I am happy with that. They are, as has been stated, what many people thought they were anyway.

No new laws made by the foundation will be applied to anyone except the foundations members.

Please try to answer in the same way the questions are asked, simply.

You want an answer based on the assumption of a universal agreement of what is new and old.
If you want to assume that you and every other person have what it takes to differenciate between the old and new laws, and that they all agree on what's old and what's new, then you can have your simple answer of "Yes, we won't make new laws", but it won't make your assumption true.

The moment that someone interprets and apply what they think is the unwritten law, they are "making" a "new" law at that very moment. When I say that we can't promise we won't impose new laws on others, that answer is relative to this concept that everyone is making "new" laws simply by their interpretation. If you don't buy that concept, that's fine with me, but it won't change the similarity between what everyone does and what Lyrenzia does.

If you wanted answers based on assumptions of terms such as old and new, I suppose most others have satisfied your desires. I'm sorry if I confuse you, but I only present my arguement for you to see that Lyrenzia and everyone else preforms the same actions. What you call those actions, is up to you.

Dyluck
Headmaster of the Magic Academy

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Sat Apr 19, 2003 1:03 am

Dyluck wrote:No. Your analogy was completely wrong. First of all there's no king, it's a deomocracy within Lyreniza. Secondly joining Lyrenzia isn't based on "friendship."

Oh my gosh. I didn't even bother reading the rest of your message, because I know it will probably be full of more of your err, how do I put this kindly, ignorant speech. Do you know what an analogy is? Its a comparation. You see, I wanted to compare what would happen in Leeranzy to something more people can understand better. So I though of an analogy. That way, people could see where I was going. Obviously, you didn't understand. I hope I am not wasting your time.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Sat Apr 19, 2003 1:41 am

Who cares about representation! I would rather have a peaceful dictatorship than the current chaos. Support Lyrenzia! So far its the best answer yet, and to all you who oppose it, i personally dont like disorder and chaos.

~~Avrillon~~

Mishrack · Post by **Mishrack** » Sat Apr 19, 2003 2:05 am

Mishrack taps Paul on the shoulder as he's writing his message.

Paul wrote:comparation

Yer inventing words again... it's comparison...

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Sat Apr 19, 2003 2:06 am

Well, then you should learn to read, paul laffing.

If you think your king anology is not wrong, then what's wrong with the analogy that you're complaining a guild leader only accepts members who follow the guild codex?

An analogy is a comparison of SIMILAR characteristics and relations.
Your analogy is wrong because it doesn't describe the whole similarity correctly, not just because you didn't use the same words.

When you make a comparison it's called an analogy, and when I make a comparison you say I'm "twisting your words"? You might want to sit down and think about that.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Sat Apr 19, 2003 3:22 am

Perhaps we should talk about grammer somewhere else.

~~Avrillon~~

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Sat Apr 19, 2003 4:28 am

Yes, comparation is a word, just has a different meaning than I wanted it to have.

Also, how do you know what I wanted to say? I said exactly what I wanted to say, and you come along and say, "Oh no, you wanted to say something else!" Unless you can read minds, don't tell me what I meant to say!

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Sat Apr 19, 2003 7:40 am

paul laffing wrote: you come along and say, "Oh no, you wanted to say something else!" Unless you can read minds, don't tell me what I meant to say!

Have you ever heard of the word irony?
I suppose I'm not allowed to make an analogy of your analogy and only paul laffing is allowed to make analogies?

The comparason of accepting guild members who follow the codex is the same as Lyrenzia. You deny that analogy is the same comparason as your king analogy, so therefore your king anology isn't the same as Lyrenzia.

Lyreniza = Guild Analogy
You said, Guild Analogy doesn't = King Analogy
So therefore, King Analogy doesn't = Lyrenzia

Is that too difficult to understand?

Dyluck
Headmaster of the Magic Academy

Thereadore · Post by **Thereadore** » Sat Apr 19, 2003 10:35 am

Dyluck, you are sssso full of rhetoric you don't even know what it isss.

Algoran hasss stated the factssss simply and precisssely.

You sssshould learn from him.

If sssomeone asssked you how to eat an orange, you would ssstart talking about it dependsss on what you consssider an orange...