The Lyrenzia Foundation / Die Lyrenzia Vereinigung

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 12:32 am

well, according to Elaralith, you can cast lightening spells on other people, but then when they try to heal themselves, casting becomes illegal.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 1:16 am

Thereadore wrote:Ssssimple, becuase no body hasss bothered to try to figure out how to figure out what the people want.

If I wanted to, I could come up with waysss, asss I have stated, and make them work.

The fact issss, it issss not sssomething I care to do. Sssso I don't.

The fact is you don't know squat about what you're talking about. You only talk and talk and that's all you do. You have no idea what are the problems when the idea is applied to reality. All you do is fantacize your dreams of a perfect system that you never tried before and other people have.

Thereadore wrote: And, yessss, if the mood fitsss me I may attack ssssuch magesss casssting in town, even though the foundation sssays it's okay, becaussse the foundation hasss to right to CHANGE the exisssting lawsss by it'sss ssself.

First of all what you were trying to say is that the foundation has "no" right. Get your own argument right.

Secondly YOU just decided by yourself what the existing law is. You decided that mes pen is not allowed, even though already over 70 people is proven to agree that it's allowed. How many people can you prove agree with you that mes pen is not allowed? Zero.

How stupid can you be? How do you know which laws are already existing and which ones don't? Don't you realize that you just decided that abitrarily by yourself, based on what YOU THINK was the law and the fact that YOU THINK other people think by the same law?

That's exactly what everyone does, and that's what Lyrenzia is doing. Open your damned eyes!

Dyluck
Headmaster of the Magic Academy

Roke · Post by **Roke** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 1:20 am

In case you are arguing against the use of spells as fireworks for a celebration, the reason Lyrenzia wants to approve and notify is so that someone cannot use the excuse that their spells are fireworks when they are in fact trying to cause destruction to buildings or people, such as making all the books wet in the library, although I believe those books are protected from water.

Ellaron · Post by **Ellaron** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 1:56 am

Ellaron, unable to contain himself anymore, snatches his pen up and starts to write.

I know I said that I wouldn't write anymore on the subject but enough is enough.

Thereadore give up. Dyluck will keep insulting you and shouting the same things over and over again until he "wins". The fact is the foundation is in place, and not you, I, nor anybody else is going to cause it to disperse. They have stated that they are now the law and have enough members to back it up; although there seems to of been more trouble in town recently than I remember for a while. They have the castle and the manpower and unless they do something openly hostile against the good of the town there are too few to stand against them.

I hope they are what they claim but will have to wait and see. We have had our say and now it is time to be silent, to wait and watch. I only hope that in the future the townsfolk will point and laugh at an old fool who saw a conspiracy where there was none. The alternative is unthinkable.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:40 am

Ellaron, if you don't agree with the fact that you and everyone else are all tyrants as much as you claim Lyrenzia to be, then you're free to argue against the logic that I provided to support this fact, but so far you have been unable to present any argument that proves my logic incorrect.

Every law that every person upholds is based on the following format:
"This is against the law because I think it meets the conditions under which I think it is against the law, and because I think others think it is against the law, unless I approve that I don't think those conditions have occured."

That is exactly the format of the "fireworks' rule by Lyrenzia.

Dyluck
Headmaster of the Magic Academy

Ellaron · Post by **Ellaron** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 3:09 am

Ellaron sighs and begins to write one last time.

The difference between me and the foundation is I have not made, nor will I make any laws. The laws I have followed were told to me from many different sources all saying the same thing. I have not imposed these laws on any one. If I see some one acting against the law, I will inform them as to their wrong doing in case they were unaware and, if they did not stop, leave it to the Rangers and the Grey light and any others who took on the roll of enforcers to enforce it. The unwritten laws were not complicated nor hard to understand, and the majority of people I have met do not break these laws.

If you wish to write the unwritten laws you have my blessing, if you wish to enforce the unwritten laws after writing them you have my blessing, as long as you don't abuse your position. If you, as has been stated, wish to write your own laws and impose them on the entire populace of Trollsbane then I have a right, in fact a duty, to question your validity and intentions.

But you win. I see I cannot argue the point with you. We must agree to disagree. You have the power and as has already been stated, might makes right. I have nothing more to add to this discussion and so beg you to let me leave it. I am too old to be belaboured and made to look a fool and a villain. You have what you want and I can't stop you.

Ellaron hangs his head, eyes closed in tiredness for a moment before pinning the note to the wall and shuffling off.

Roke · Post by **Roke** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 3:24 am

This is a bringing together of the guilds such as The Grey Rose, The Grey Light and The Rangers, therefore trying to enforce these "unwritten laws", with some minor modifications and some explanations.

List one law/rule which is wrong? Here is the adress to the public part of the castle, with the rules and regulations that the guilds have agreed to. These guilds, such as The Ranger and The Grey Light all have equal say in what goes on in Lyrenzia.

((http://www.geocities.com/first_impact/l ... /exile.htm))

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 3:42 am

Korwin, the only law I do not agree with is ALLOWING magesss to cassst in town when the foundation sssaysss sssso

The foundation only chooses if firework displays are reasonable or not, they can not 'allow' any other casting that would be otherwise outlawed. Believe it or not, the foundation is looking out for the welfare of the town, even more so than you. As previously stated, the reason permission is needed is so some lunatic doesn't run about and set things on fire, claiming he was given permission. I see no problem with a normal firework display, do you? You shouldn't, or else you may be 'opressing' people.

Ellaron · Post by **Ellaron** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 3:58 am

Hearing Roke pin another note to the board Ellaron shuffles back in to reply. His skin grey and palid and with shaking hand he writes

Yes, yes , YES. Did you think I enterd this discussion blind? I have said that you have only modified the one law as far as I see. The one about fireworks. Your explanation is reasonable, as all changes start out to be. If you were to stop there the problem would end. But you have gone on to build a castle and say that you will be writing new laws, imposing them on everyone in Trollsbane and enforcing them with force.
This was all done in secret, away from the eyes and ears of the populace. Then you announce that you are the new rulers of trollsbane, for who controls the laws controls the populace, and we should shut up and accept it. Please no more, I have said you've won. You don't need to justify yourselves, you have what you want. Let an old man sdfgtttttttg

The rest is illegible as Ellaron slumps to the floor. Algoran, walking past, notices the crumpled figure and goes to see who's in need of help. "Ellaron!" he shouts, and rushes to him. Seeing the note he scans it for some clue. Snatching his dagger from his belt and piercing the parchment in one swift movement, he pins the note to the board. "Are you happy now?" Algoran shouts, though whether at the foundation or at Ellaron is not clear. He stoops and picks up his half brother. "Dont worry you old fool, you're in safe hands now". Ellaron, breathing shallowly, shows no sign of hearing. Algoran begins to mutter some incantations to begin the healing process.

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 4:07 am

dyluck wrote:
Thereadore wrote: And, yessss, if the mood fitsss me I may attack ssssuch magesss casssting in town, even though the foundation sssays it's okay, becaussse the foundation hasss to right to CHANGE the exisssting lawsss by it'sss ssself.
First of all what you were trying to say is that the foundation has "no" right. Get your own argument right.

I think he might of been, uhhh, sarcastic? Maybe? Just a litte?

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:51 am

Ellaron wrote: that you will be writing new laws, imposing them on everyone in Trollsbane and enforcing them with force.

Never said that. Nobody ever says that, but that is what everyone does. It's only a matter of whether they think they are "writing" an old law or new law.

Ellaron wrote: Then you announce that you are the new rulers of trollsbane, for who controls the laws controls the populace

Nope. Never announced that.

Ellaron wrote: The difference between me and the foundation is I have not made, nor will I make any laws.

Yes, you did make laws, just like everyone else. Every single law you have ever made follows this critera:

"This is against the law because Ellaron think this action meets the conditions under which Ellaron thinks it is against the law, and because Ellaron think that others think it is against the law, unless Ellaron approves that Ellaron doesn't think those conditions have occured or Ellaron thinks that others don't think it is against the law."

Do you deny that every law you believe in follows this critera?

The only difference is that everyone knows exactly the laws that Lyrenzia has made while nobody knows for sure what laws that everyone else has made by themselves.

Ellaron wrote: The laws I have followed were told to me from many different sources all saying the same thing.

Sorry but that can't be true. The laws you followed were a version of something told long ago combined into the most simple generalization that YOU know. Some think spellcasting is never allowed in the town under ANY condition. Some think it's allowed for self-defense. Some think it's allowed for healing. Some think it's allowed for food. Fewer think it's allowed for fireworks because the possibility rarely has a chance to occur in someone's mind.

Which ones were included or not included in the unwritten law?

The moment you chose one or the other or chose not to choose, you have chosen the law and what it includes.

Ellaron wrote: The unwritten laws were not complicated nor hard to understand, and the majority of people I have met do not break these laws.

You're joking right? I slay a dragon with a sword and tell somebody.
Then they tell two others that I've slain a dragon with a magic sword. Then they tell others that I've slain a big red dragon with a magic sword and magic shield.
Then somebody says that I've slain a big red demon with a magic septor and magic shield, while another person says I've slain a big red dragon with a magic spell.

You seriously think you know the real unwritten law? I think not. You only know the jist of it just like everyone else has their own versions and everyone lives by their own version. They just don't realize it until somebody takes the time to tell them their full version, which is what you have now realized from Lyrenzia.

You are no fool nor villian, but only that in drawing a square, you don't realize that you've also drawn a rectangle all along.

Dyluck
Headmaster of the Magic Academy

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 7:14 am

as far as i can see no laws pose any threat to our freedom as an individual or against any group. However, i think some action should be debated among the members of the council about civil unrest with this so called "war" going on. Darlok and his gang of robbers should be delt with somehow.

Algoran · Post by **Algoran** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 10:15 pm

Algoran realising that Dyluck has not heard of Ellarons collapse sits down to reply.

Unfortunately Ellaron has had to take to his bed as he's a bit under the weather at the moment. Nothing serious and I'm sure he'll be up and around in a couple of days.

Algoran becomes aware that the concern he feels for Ellarons health is written across his face. Checking that no one has noticed he wears a lighter visage.

As to your foundation I care little. Do not bother me or my familly and I will not bother you. I am not a warrior nor am I versed in powerfull magics. But I tell you this; harm my familly and I shall use my last breath to take you with me.

I feel I must point out something though. Ellaron said :

that you will be writing new laws, imposing them on everyone in Trollsbane and enforcing them with force.

To which you replied :

Never said that. Nobody ever says that, but that is what everyone does. It's only a matter of whether they think they are "writing" an old law or new law.

I draw your attention to :

Aragon:
We are going to make laws and we will follow these laws and invite others to join Lyrenzia and follow these laws, too.

Damien:
The laws Lyrenzia has put into words, were all "unwritten" town laws before. Since they are now written, and supported by a great part of the city - the participating guilds with all their members - they will have to be followed by everyone who wants to live in Troll's Bane.

Damien:
To explain, these rules are Lyrenzia rules at the moment. Lyrenzia members will follow those, and work for the public in stopping criminals by using these laws. Everyone else following them, will therefor have no problem with Lyrenzia.

Of course since you are making new laws you get to say who the criminals are.

Damien:
Lyrenzia will, instead of discussing endlessly, act. And it will act with the strength of the organisations within it, and with the strength of all supporting people.

Adano Eles:
Whoever writes them down also has the responsibility of enforcing those laws.

Adano Eles:
Those who did not accept the laws bacause they were unwritten will not follow them either if they are written down by someone who doesn't have enough respect and power to also enforce them.

Dyluck:
Lyrenzia wrote down what WE THINK is the law, and in addition to those WE THINK agree with us, we also KNOW a certain number of people who are the members of Lyrenzia, agrees with us. We KNOW the exact wording and details of the laws that we believe in.

Dyluck:
If "might" is what it takes to uphold the basic principles and morals of -Do no towncast -Do not kill -Do not steal, that has for years been our standard of living and kept our town from slipping into utter chaos, then so be it, as it always has been.

You abuse the word and concept of logic so badly it makes my brain itch. Very little logic on either side has been used. Stick to repetition and insults it's worked for you so far.

Ellaron wrote:
Then you announce that you are the new rulers of trollsbane, for who controls the laws controls the populace

Dyluck
Nope. Never announced that.

Did you READ what he said? Your foundation says it's making new laws (Aragon) and Ellaron says that "for who controls the laws controls the populace "

The questions I have left are, no one "knows" the unwritten laws yet all you've done is write them down? Does every member of your foundation get a vote on the new laws? Answer dont answer I care not. but others may be interested.

Viola Thistle · Post by **Viola Thistle** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 10:53 pm

A quiet hobbit lady sits in the back of the group unnoticed crocheting a woolen shaw. Under her breath she counts stitches, "6, 7, 8". Her long, hooked needle moves fast gathering and releasing loops into a tight weave.

During a pause in the current debate "whose" laws will be written and become the law of Trollsbane, the hobbit raises her voice so the other towns folk nearby can hear. "Perhaps the organizers should request the individuals and guilds interested to submit their versions of the unwritten law. A standard format would probably helpful for the organizers to review and compile the general consensus."

The hobbit sat her shaw in her lap and scratched on a piece of paper the following outline and showed it to those nearby.

1. Laws regarding the use of magic
a. Healing Magic
b. Harmful Magic

2. Laws regarding use of arms

3. Laws regarding fair trade

4. Laws regarding use of land

5. Laws regarding the treatment of hostile outside forces

It's my understanding that the proposal for this new organization is to gather guilds and individuals of this town to support, not deminish, the rights of all the citizens. I have yet to hear any one person claim a lead role, rather a committee from many groups and guilds to guide the organization's efforts.

"Viola, what is to stop one person from gaining total control of this organization, and thereby the laws of this town?" a peasant sitting on the ground asked.

"You and I and all the other members. I also think some bylaws of the organization need to be recommended and approved. But that is a different discussion."

"And how should the offenders be judged and tried?" pondered another.
"We can not determine how or even if people will be prosecuted until these laws are approved. The judgment of offenders may have to come from a new and seperate group of citizens. But this too will have to wait. At the moment, it seems, the group is only interested in a consensus of the current unwritten laws." The hobbit lady picked her crochet work back up and continued looping and counting under her breath.

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 11:02 pm

I say, If you do not like this lyrenzia, then do not support it. This council will only work if it is completely supported by 50% of the population or more. That is the downfall of an authoritarian government.

Roke · Post by **Roke** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 11:18 pm

If you don't mind me asking Paul, what do you think of Lyrenzia

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 11:36 pm

I have no opinion about it, as I know nothing about it. I would like to meet with someone from this board and see what this whole thing is about, but none of them ever seem to be around. I am awfully suspicious, though, that they woke up one day and decided to rule over Troll's Bane.

Roke · Post by **Roke** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 11:38 pm

This did not happen in one day, you yourself even said that you wanted a government, here is one. Dyluck and Aragon, as well as others have been planning this for a very long time.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 12:03 am

Algoran wrote: As to your foundation I care little. Do not bother me or my familly and I will not bother you. I am not a warrior nor am I versed in powerfull magics. But I tell you this; harm my familly and I shall use my last breath to take you with me.

Do you waste your breath with this introduction with every person you meet? Because you have just about as much reason to say it to us as you do to anyone else.

Algoran wrote:I feel I must point out something though. Ellaron said :
that you will be writing new laws, imposing them on everyone in Trollsbane and enforcing them with force.
To which you replied :
Never said that. Nobody ever says that, but that is what everyone does. It's only a matter of whether they think they are "writing" an old law or new law.

None of the examples you have provided has made my statement untrue. You can say that they all mean the same thing if you want, but I haven't denied that, nor have I denied that is what we and everyone else is doing.

Algoran wrote:
Ellaron wrote:
Then you announce that you are the new rulers of trollsbane, for who controls the laws controls the populace

Dyluck
Nope. Never announced that.
Did you READ what he said? Your foundation says it's making new laws (Aragon) and Ellaron says that "for who controls the laws controls the populace "

Once again, no example you provided has proven my statement untrue. We have never announced ourselves the rulers of Troll's Bane. You could say that we control the populace of Lyrenzia because that is who makes and follows the laws. Just as each person makes and follows in their own laws and so controls themself.

You and everyone else believes in certain laws that you THINK some others believe as well, and impose them and enforce them on others whenever you find it necessary, just as Lyrenzia does. Now you're becoming all phobic about it just because a large group of people believe in the same laws and make it known.

Algoran wrote: The questions I have left are, no one "knows" the unwritten laws yet all you've done is write them down? Does every member of your foundation get a vote on the new laws? Answer dont answer I care not. but others may be interested.

You answered your own question in your thorough research already:

Dyluck:
Lyrenzia wrote down what WE THINK is the law, and in addition to those WE THINK agree with us, we also KNOW a certain number of people who are the members of Lyrenzia, agrees with us. We KNOW the exact wording and details of the laws that we believe in.

The answer to the second question is yes.

In case you haven't realized it, we haven't made any "new" laws yet. One law was simply worded in a way which makes obvious the basic format of all laws that each person "makes". That format, I have provided in a few posts above.

Dyluck
Headmaster of the Magic Academy

Bumbol Woodstock · Post by **Bumbol Woodstock** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 12:12 am

Personally I like this idea. We need a base for justice and laws. Right now there is a very mean hobbit running around town by the name of Ferrow. He is casting on our poor halfing women. Last night he cast flames on Viola Thistle 4 or 5 times. Everytime we killed him, but he would come back and do it again. Then later today he walks up to Crosis' new bride Rosa Underhill. And what does he do? He sets he on fire as well.
I would like to know how the Lyrenzia council would take care of this problem.
Sincerely
-Bumbol Woodstock

Fieps · Post by **Fieps** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 12:15 am

paul laffing wrote:I have no opinion about it, as I know nothing about it.

But we talk and talk about something from what we know nothing, thats great.
The half of this discussion here is absolut nonsense, because some people not even has been taking the time to understand about what they speak.

And so is all what we can, talking the foundation like all other to death.

And then people wonders, why only a few persons are going to appear with a "proposal" and say so and so we will handle it, now and not anyone else after a big discussion with the public.

Because this discussion is the death from every idea, and i am tired of that.

signed by...

Fieps,
Owner of "The Seahorse"

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 12:48 am

Dear Bumbol,

Lyrenzia is almost in the final phases of completing a Judicial System and a Public Voting system.

What will happen to those found guilty of a crime might depend on what "the people" value more.

Is it Freedom or Peace?
Is it due process or crime control?

If we chose peace, then we would throw every person in jail for a certain time whenever we found guilty of a crime, then it would take those criminals off the streets and eliminate most needs of using violence to deal with them.

If we choose freedom, then prison time would be only one option if those found guilty wanted to co-operate for the greater good of society. If they do not choose prison, then the only other option is to label them as an exile for a certain time in which justification is given to anyone for attacking them if they are in town ((Res-kill rules still apply. Must give reasonable time and chance to leave if they are revived)). In this case, peace may only come if exile is enough of a deterrent or those found guilty choose to co-operate.

Freedom is the default right now.

Dyluck
Headmaster of the Magic Academy

Algoran · Post by **Algoran** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 1:06 am

Algoran rereads his earlier post to make sure he hadn't written it in Orcish. Seeing the note is in common his brow furrows with confusion.

Dyluck you have me hooked. I thought I would not need to write again as this means little to me, but I am puzzled.

Ellaron accused the foundation of three things :
1, Writing new laws in the future.
2, Imposing the laws on the populace of Trollsbane.
3, Enforcing these laws with force.

You deny this.

In answer to point 1.
You state that the foundation has never said that it will be writing new laws.
I quote Aragon :

We are going to make laws and we will follow these laws and invite others to join Lyrenzia and follow these laws, too.

And in fact your last post states :

In case you haven't realized it, we haven't made any "new" laws yet

.

So is Aragon not a member or mistaken? If he's neither then Ellarons point stands.

In answer to point 2.
You state that the foundation will not be imposing them on the whole populace of Trollsbane.

I quote Damien :

they, (the laws), will have to be followed by everyone who wants to live in Troll's Bane.

Lyrenzia members will follow those, and work for the public in stopping criminals by using these laws. Everyone else following them, will therefor have no problem with Lyrenzia.

"Everyone else" therefore is everyone not in the foundation. This states that all inhabitants of Trollsbane will follow the new laws or will have "problems" from the foundation.

So is Damien not a member or mistaken? If he's neither then Ellarons second point stands.

In answer to point 3.
You state that force will not be used to impose your new laws.

I quote Damien, Adano and Yourself. I wont bother to do so again you can see for yourselves.

Are these people not members of the foundation or are they mistaken? If neither then Ellarons third point stands.

I am glad to see that every member of the foundation will get a vote on every law and change to the law you make. I shall pass this on to Ellaron as I'm sure it will assuage his fears.

Even with my research I'm still puzzled as to how the foundation managed to write down the unknowable. I think I understand you to be saying since no one knew the laws, except in outline, you were able to interpret them as the foundation saw fit. I do see that we all, to some extent, interpret the details of the law in our own way. What I dont see is why that warrants a secret organisation and a castle. But we go round in circles. It might as well be you that interprets them and as the laws stand there is little to worry about. Its the future and Ellarons points above that are of concern.

As to my waste of breath. It's only a waste if you didn't understand the meaning. I thought it fair that if the foundation should threaten me with "problems" it would be impolite not to reciprocate.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 1:25 am

Algoran wrote: Ellaron accused the foundation of three things :
1, Writing new laws in the future.
2, Imposing the laws on the populace of Trollsbane.
3, Enforcing these laws with force.

You deny this.

Once again:

Dyluck wrote: You can say that they all mean the same thing if you want, but I haven't denied that, nor have I denied that is what we and everyone else is doing.

Ellaron has accused the foundation of the above 3 things. I have accused the entire populace of Troll's Bane of the above 3 things. Whether or not you interpret the above 3 accusasions as so is of no consequent to me since the result applies to both the foundation and the entire populace of Troll's Bane.

Algoran wrote: I do see that we all, to some extent, interpret the details of the law in our own way.

I'm glad you see it, but I'm afraid you don't see the true extent of everyone else. You've only managed to see Lyrenzia's extent because it was obvious and specified.

Algoran wrote: As to my waste of breath. It's only a waste if you didn't understand the meaning. I thought it fair that if the foundation should threaten me with "problems" it would be impolite not to reciprocate.

Dyluck wrote: Do you waste your breath with this introduction with every person you meet? Because you have just about as much reason to say it to us as you do to anyone else.

So you do say this introduction to every person you meet then? I doubt it. Not a very polite greeting. I wouldn't recommend it.

Dyluck
Headmaster of the Magic Academy

Thereadore · Post by **Thereadore** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 3:32 am

Dyluck, I have come to the conclusssion that you are a fool.

You are sssaying, well, everyone elssse doessss it, why can't we?

Everyone elsse doesss not sssee thisss, jussst you and a few othersss.

It is quite obvoiusss that you are blind and will not lisssten to anything that people sssay becaussse you are asss clossse minded as one of the mummiesss. You sssee what you want and go for it, leading only to your own dessstruction.

Sssso be it.

I have ssstated what I would do if thissss foundation ever tried to impossse a new law that isss not already one of the exisssting lawsss.

I do not care what your opionion isss asss to your foundationsss right to make new lawsss. I will fight any new lawsss unlesss the town assss a whole agree with them, not jusssst the foundation.

And sssince my eyesss ssseem to be more open than yoursss, I can sssee who the town issss. It issss sssad you can not.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 3:43 am

Thereadore wrote: You are sssaying, well, everyone elssse doessss it, why can't we?

Everyone elsse doesss not sssee thisss, jussst you and a few othersss.

Over 70 people in the Lyrenzia Foundation can see this. Even Algoran begins to see a little of this. Only you still can't. Do the math yourself.

At least you finally opened your eyes and see the point of the argument.

Thereadore wrote: I have ssstated what I would do if thissss foundation ever tried to impossse a new law that isss not already one of the exisssting lawsss.

Oh dear, now we have a crazy lizard who thinks he travel through time and can read minds. Sorry, but you can't travel through time or read minds.

Thereadore wrote: I will fight any new lawsss unlesss the town assss a whole agree with them, not jusssst the foundation.

You will fight the laws that you made by yourself? Feel free to stab yourself.

Thereadore wrote: And sssince my eyesss ssseem to be more open than yoursss, I can sssee who the town issss. It issss sssad you can not.

You can't see it. You just decided it by yourself. Who you consider the town is only in your eyes. You can try to say all you want that you decide who "the people "are, but people won't listen to your tyranny.

Dyluck
Headmaster of the Magic Academy

Algoran · Post by **Algoran** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 4:15 am

Please dont use my name in your justifications. I am against the foundation as I percieve it to be. Unlike some, if my perception changes so will my opinion. But till I see proof of your intent my mind is clear.

I was trying earlier to clear up what was accepted and what wasn't. I had hoped that if I showed I was not close minded perhaps you might show the same. I think Everyone would accept that the unwritten laws had exceptions that were justified solely by each person, and therefore, by definition, each person had their own interpretation, no matter how slight the difference. Your argument still returns to the same thing. We all interpreted the law so there is chaos, now the foundation is just doing the same. Except of course, now you have over seventy people making the law for thousands, rather than each to his own conscience. Fine, if seventy people want to do it collectively not a problem. But you can no more expect someone to deaf, dumb and blindly follow the foundations laws any more than they did the laws they were told existed in the first place.

You have written the unwritten laws and from those people I have spoken to they seem to be in accord with what 'we' few believed them to be, with one explained and accepted exception. If you can now give your word that no more laws will be created as far as I'm concerned the argument is over and we can all get back to more important matters.

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 4:34 am

Thereadore wrote:

I will fight any new lawsss unlesss the town assss a whole agree with them, not jusssst the foundation.
You will fight the laws that you made by yourself? Feel free to stab yourself.

He said any new laws, i.e, the laws you will make.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 7:27 am

any new lawsss unlesss the town assss a whole agree with them

@Hermie: I know Hermie, but you have to understand the essence of the argument is that every person is making a "new" law at their moment of interpretation because only they could know their own complete interpretation.

Algoran wrote: I think Everyone would accept that the unwritten laws had exceptions that were justified solely by each person, and therefore, by definition, each person had their own interpretation, no matter how slight the difference.

Correct. And now people know the exact interpretation of those in Lyrenzia.

Algoran wrote: Your argument still returns to the same thing. We all interpreted the law so there is chaos, now the foundation is just doing the same.

Correct. It is still the SAME. That's why you should have as much or as little problem with Lyrenzia as you did with everyone else.

The difference is that our population is defined so that its possible to make decisions amongst ourselves with legitimacy and to continue grow into a population that continues to be defined. While the undefined population of "the town" can go nowhere because it can't define itself to gain legimacy from itself to make any decisions.

Algoran wrote: Except of course, now you have over seventy people making the law for thousands, rather than each to his own conscience. Fine, if seventy people want to do it collectively not a problem. But you can no more expect someone to deaf, dumb and blindly follow the foundations laws any more than they did the laws they were told existed in the first place.

I'm glad to see that you're now able to begin to see the similarity comparason. That's fair, except for the underlined sentence. You can't tell me that each person made the laws only to themselves, unless you can tell me that nobody ever upholds against others the law that they believe in.

Algoran wrote: You have written the unwritten laws and from those people I have spoken to they seem to be in accord with what 'we' few believed them to be, with one explained and accepted exception. If you can now give your word that no more laws will be created as far as I'm concerned the argument is over and we can all get back to more important matters.

Unfortunately I can't promise you that. If you read everything written in Lyrenzia Castle, then it will be obvious that we plan to continue to grow in many ways, including to encompass a larger and larger population, and with each person that is added to the population of the Foundation, the justification and legitimacy to do what is best for the population will increase, including creating any laws that the population believes necessary. The possiblity that any more laws will be "created" by Lyrenzia is proportional to the increase of the population of Lyrenzia.

However, law is only as useful as the amount of support to follow it, so you need not worry about any unfavourable laws being created.

Dyluck
Headmaster of the Magic Academy

Aragon · Post by **Aragon** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 8:30 am

Dear Algoran,

after you have used my post as an arguement against Dyluck, I have to repeat to it, to clear up, what's seemed to be unclear in my statement.

Algoran wrote:
Ellaron accused the foundation of three things :
1, Writing new laws in the future.
[...]
In answer to point 1.
You state that the foundation has never said that it will be writing new laws.
I quote Aragon :
We are going to make laws and we will follow these laws and invite others to join Lyrenzia and follow these laws, too.
And in fact your last post states :
In case you haven't realized it, we haven't made any "new" laws yet
.

So is Aragon not a member or mistaken? If he's neither then Ellarons point stands.

The above discussion went about new laws, made for the whole town. This is, what Ellaron feared. That we will make laws and say, all citizens have to obey them.

What I have written and you quoted it, is another thing.
We will make laws for the people within Lyrenzia. This is our right to define laws for the people, who are binded together in Lyrenzia, as each other guild make rules for their members.

The difference is, that this new laws within Lyrenzia will be discussed by the councilors of Lyrenzia, which are in contact with the members of their guilds and so know, what their guild members want.
So these "Lyrenzia-laws" have the legitmiacy of the people in Lyrenzia.

And the next thing is, I wrote, that we as Lyrenzia invite other guilds and indiviudals to join Lyrenzia. By joining Lyrenzia, they say, that they like this now written down laws and like to follow them and like to work with their members and their councilor on further laws within Lyrenzia.
So all groups joining Lyrenzia agree in the same basics and made new basics for themself.

So the point, you made doesn't stand in the sense, that it was ment by Ellaron.

With kind regards and blessings from Malachin,

Aragon ben Galwan
Earl and Templar of the Grey Rose
Priest of Malachin
Councilor of Lyrenzia