Suggestion

Khalime · Post by **Khalime** » Mon Apr 07, 2003 4:03 am

What do you guys think of establishing a type of mlitary service or army?

Radurak · Post by **Radurak** » Mon Apr 07, 2003 4:14 am

That is hard to say. There are many people out there who have established a type of military. From what I heard, there is a group of rangers. This doesn't really have to be done either. Just get a pack of people to wander around the area. I'm only speaking of this if you are talking only about the topic of the Blackstone. I don't know exactly if you mean just for the Blackstone, or for all types of trouble. Maybe you should explain what you said a little bit more.

Thanks and Farewell...
Radurak A. Bragol

Bumbol Woodstock · Post by **Bumbol Woodstock** » Mon Apr 07, 2003 4:26 am

Radurak, he means I think an army to combat the army of Drahken. It would never work... to many people would be against it... Besides, there are enough people who are willing to lay there lives down for Trollsbane. You don't need an army.... The leader of the army might become power-hungry...

Roke · Post by **Roke** » Mon Apr 07, 2003 4:30 am

The Rangers aren't the only old guild that defends the town from people/things such as Drahken or The Blackstone Cult...

Khalime · Post by **Khalime** » Mon Apr 07, 2003 5:14 am

You are right..I wanted to get it out there and see what people thought.. It might be hard to get people to devote their time to the town in the military. It might be a little bit of a waste of time... Just wanted to hear the opinions..

Radurak · Post by **Radurak** » Mon Apr 07, 2003 5:48 am

Roke wrote:The Rangers aren't the only old guild that defends the town from people/things such as Drahken or The Blackstone Cult...

Yes, I know that. That is why I said, "There are many people out there who have established a type of military." Now when I think about it, I didn't really say that very well. I was just saying that there are many people and clans and such that have been helping out. When I talked about the rangers, I was giving an example.
Radurak smiles.

Radurak A. Bragol

Thereadore · Post by **Thereadore** » Mon Apr 07, 2003 9:05 am

An army... yessss, that would be interesssting. Maybe ssssomething I would be interessted in joining.

But, how would you pay the troopss? Where would you get the money for the payroll? For if ssssomene issss in the military they mussst get paid.

Aragon · Post by **Aragon** » Mon Apr 07, 2003 9:28 am

So you need a government, which collect taxes to pay a military force.
And you need also to count the citizens of Troll's Bane to know, how much taxes will come in, so that you know how much money you will have to use.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Mon Apr 07, 2003 10:20 am

Such defense or patrol forces haven never succeeded here in anything but giving themselves a bad name. You can't enforce something only by having a specific group of people doing it. Laws will only exists if large amounts of people uphold them on a daily basis, not only a designated group.

As for defense against outside invasion, you will have a vast amount of time slots to assign people to protect, and not enough attacks to protect again, so you end up with a group of people calling themselves some kind of military force, giving themselves a bad image while there is nothing much for them to do, and soon they leave the post you assign them anyways from lack of things to do.

Faramier · Post by **Faramier** » Mon Apr 07, 2003 2:55 pm

Dyluck is right.

Besides we are all doomed to die because of our own petty squabbles, differences in opinion, and ignorance.

Drathe · Post by **Drathe** » Mon Apr 07, 2003 6:10 pm

Nothing like a few uplifting words to rally the towns people and realy give them hope.

Freo · Post by **Freo** » Mon Apr 07, 2003 7:31 pm

Hello, hey Khalime is this what we were discussing earlier??. If so, than Dyluck, we do not mean to uphold laws. we only aim to protect the town, and maybe uphold the peace in town, that is all. If there were an attack on the town, by say the blackstone cult oreven the demon kind, would you not want a group of people there to protect the innocent?

there shant be any law upholding.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Tue Apr 08, 2003 12:07 am

Freo, I addressed both law enforcement and town defenses.

Khalime · Post by **Khalime** » Tue Apr 08, 2003 3:36 am

Why would there have to be a bad name given to the military? When they, as you say it, have nothing to do, is the time for training. There is always room for improvement in anything. If they are given time off then they can continue with what they were doing in the out-of-military life, such as lumberjacking, smithing, carpentry, marketing, whatever the case may be..

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Tue Apr 08, 2003 4:44 am

Why woud they get a bad name? It's rather difficult to explain, but you can find an enduring pattern in the past. I'm afraid you must gain a better understanding of the mind set of the citizens of this town in order to answer your question and to do better than those who tried before you did.

If they are not always active, what you have just described is nothing more than the ordinary citizen then. If you try to keep them active and training, you may find it to be more difficult to do it than it is for you to write about it. And even if you succeed in keeping them actively doing something, you will have to deal with the controversy that the population may meet you with, which you must first learn to comprehend.

Khalime · Post by **Khalime** » Tue Apr 08, 2003 5:12 am

To state the truth, I was doing no more than suggesting.. I assumed the people would elect a military leader if they agreed one is needed. And believe me. I know it would be hard dealing with that, and would require responsibility. Not to be rude, but when I talk about a military service, the only ones i would plan to be involved are the military personell, not so much the other citizens. Of course, the citizens would get involved, it is only customary for this to happen.

Bei Tian Kensai · Post by **Bei Tian Kensai** » Tue Apr 08, 2003 4:20 pm

i think aragon makes a good point about the government. It would be a long process with alot of difficult obstacles, and im not sure how people would react to the taxes..but i think it would create alot of culture in the place.. just my opinion

Faramier · Post by **Faramier** » Tue Apr 08, 2003 6:49 pm

Khalime trust me, I tried, I made maps recruited worked out patroll times where to position troops the whole lot. It didn't work because of one fact, the town didnt want it. I know that sounds strange but they opposed my efforts. Look under the recruitment topic, that should explain a few things.

Bumbol Woodstock · Post by **Bumbol Woodstock** » Tue Apr 08, 2003 11:13 pm

aye, some here, people just don't want town protectors or something... Don't ruin you name like I did Khalime.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Wed Apr 09, 2003 1:19 am

It's not that big of mystery why those that tried have failed. They think up ideas or systems of how to make things work and try to do it, but they don't understand situational factors such as the psychology of the people. For one, you can't expect to suddenly declare yourself to be some kind of protector or defense force or mediator to settle disputes when you're a nobody and hope that the masses will accept or join you.

Khalime · Post by **Khalime** » Wed Apr 09, 2003 3:40 am

I know am sure that all of you speaking of so have experience such as this.. I, for one, wanted to get the peoples thought on a type of army, not run one myself.. I am now 'nobody', i realize that.. Who knows? The future may change that. Even though I don't plan to change the world.
Dyluck.. You talk like you are somebody important, maybe you are. But I wish you would stop jumping to conclusions and saying(writing) your thoughts with a sarcastic attitude. Please don't say that I think i am "a protector, defense force, or mediator"! I never said I am that and I do not believe that. And I have a question.. Why is it that you all, as the people, claim that the people of the town reject the idea? You are the people of the town, yet you appear to proportionately support it.

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Wed Apr 09, 2003 4:17 am

Khalime, you are somebody. Just because you arent know widely throughout the land doesnt mean you are a 'nobody', I think maybe that could have been worded better.

I think people get bad names for themselves when they iterfere with private, or personal things.

Also the people who want to protect make the mistake of trying to serve justice, rather than to neutralise situations. For example:

You could see two people fighting and try finding out who started it to punish them....
Thats no use, the point of keeping the peace isnt to point the finger of blame at someone and have them punished, but instead to neutralise the matter, or have them move out of town where no one else is likely to become involved.

Its when people start trying to serve 'justice' that things go wrong.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Wed Apr 09, 2003 4:36 am

Justice is an extremely good thing. Without it there would be no society and only chaos as murderers and thieves would be able to get away with everything. How would you like that Hermie? Unless you are one of those so named murderers and thieves then you would not like such a thing to happen-which would in the absence of Justice. I as the goddess Elara's servant see the misguided in way in which you see Justice and present it, and I hope you are cleared of your confusions and see the truth. True Justice is never a wrong thing to do, and does only good. Elara wisest of all loves justice and commands her servants to see Justice always carried out so that victims that suffer at the hands of evil people can be relieved.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Wed Apr 09, 2003 5:36 am

Khalime, I never pointed my finger at you and said that you declared yourself any of those things either. I never said I was talking specifically to you. That was a general example of the patterns of failure that has come to pass. I think you would be better able to interpret my words and the point of it if you simply look at it with the word "you" replaced by "a person(s)".

Besides, I wasn't talking about a single person but any entire military group. But if you don't declare yourselves to be something along the lines of official defenders or patrols, then you're just another guild of fighters. If you do declare those things, then you'll run into the problem of the people accepting you to give you legitimacy. See my point?

And who do you say here seems to proportionally supports the idea of a military? I don't see much people really showing support. Just a few who have failed before that are telling that they tried before.

Khalime · Post by **Khalime** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 4:31 am

It seems pretty apparent that if a person says, "I've tried before, but the people wouldn't agree...", then they support it. As well, I have heard words from people stating that they would accept or want one, directly.
Besides, if i make a guild and claim to me 'protectors' of some sort, then we as the guild would not only defend the town, but be offensive as well, just to state that..

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 8:08 am

"Supports" and "supported" refer to two different time frames.

So what are you trying to say then, Khalime? Are you saying that you believe people want and will accept a military, despite the fact that everything that ever resembled an attempt to from one was rejected? I don't agree. The few words here and some opinions from the mouths of a few people is hardly representitive enough of the vast population of Troll's Bane.

Besides, some people say they want a military but don't even actually understand how it would actually affect them. They just like the idea itself but don't understand what it will really mean or how hard it is to create and maintin when actually applied to the real world.

Perhaps some people do "want" one, but wanting is a different thing from "accepting". People aren't going to accept just anyone who comes in and declares themselves the military. Gaining legitimacy from a vast population that is also fragmented into several sub-groups is not an easy task, and is the same problem that government creation faces. Such institutions as governments and military can't be successfully implemented until an effective way for them to gain legitimacy is found, and so far nobody has found it, at least none who tried or trying to create a military.

Then there's the problems within a military itself. Just getting enough manpower from the population of Troll's Bane to be effectively distributed across time and place is enough of an obstacle by itself.

As you can see from all my posts, the recurring theme here is "legitimacy" and "situational understanding of a population (ie. its resources and psychology)" both of which very few people have or know how to get.

Khalime · Post by **Khalime** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 1:25 am

Yes, Dyluck. I do believe you to know what you are talking about.. I will read over these posts and maybe try to think of something. If i do nothing towards the military i guess you know my decision.. I mean..I know it would be hard and i figured taxes may be started to supply funds. But I am not gunna argue about the army any more unless someone wants to. But I agree it is best to not work on it, at least right now.. But dont expect much of an arguement out of me for this because I, now, dont really support it..
Thank you..

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 2:59 am

Until a sturdy known leadership is determined for Trollsbane there can be no recognized "military" of any sort because of reasons of Justice and legitimacy as Dyluck stated.

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 3:20 am

Justice is an extremely good thing. Without it there would be no society and only chaos as murderers and thieves would be able to get away with everything. How would you like that Hermie? Unless you are one of those so named murderers and thieves then you would not like such a thing to happen-which would in the absence of Justice. I as the goddess Elara's servant see the misguided in way in which you see Justice and present it, and I hope you are cleared of your confusions and see the truth. True Justice is never a wrong thing to do, and does only good. Elara wisest of all loves justice and commands her servants to see Justice always carried out so that victims that suffer at the hands of evil people can be relieved.

So really you believe you should be punished for burning pigs in the tavern, you should be punished for blaming me for taking them there, and you should be punished for wrongly accusing me of killing Lenti. Oh, and do I get punished for trying to revive Lenti? He was shot by a bow, nothing myself or Darlok had at the time. You seemed to be the only person to have done it, afterall, you did try to quickly blame someone for it, which tunred out to be me...

Khalime · Post by **Khalime** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 4:21 am

Hermie..Please take this conversation to the other message board where it should be.. Please..

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