Implied Consent/Reporting Abuse/Supervillains [DE/EN]

Aegohl · Post by **Aegohl** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:53 pm

Deutsche Übersetzung weiter unten.

Hi. Just a quick announcement.

A couple weeks back there was talk in IRC about the concept of 'implied consent.' If you weren't there, ask your friends about it. The staff rejected the idea and decided that it would borderline violate the GM Constitution, so no go, unfortunately. (For the record, the GM Constitution article in question doesn't allow "creative punishments," instead encouraging traditional punishments (bans, etcetera) and cites the "Christmas Present" case in which two players were told that the next time they're killed by players they will be perma-killed. We'll get to the reasons why this is in place further in the discussion when I talk about "supervillains."

If you only take one thing away from this thread, it should be "report abuse!" The problem is that players are telling us that there's a whole lot of unfair PKing and other stuff going on ingame, but no one's reporting this.

And I can understand why, because in the past, we were very soft at Illarion. We pussyfooted around and avoided banning people until half the community was in an uproar yelling at us to ban them already. We were much too soft, and our softness was abused. In reality, not being strict creates what I call "supervillain complexes."

There are a whole list of people I've banned that we simply can't get rid of. They come back again and again and either try to sneak their way back in or they try to undermine us with harassing board posts, etcetera. These people could have been small problems if we banned them the first time we suspected they're not here for the right reasons, but we gave them the benefit of the doubt time and time again and let them grow into bigger and bigger menaces, and the end result really is players leave over them or, maybe even worse, deal with their harassment every day and try to grin and bear it.

So please, report abuse. Report rulebreakers. Report PKers. We want to take care of these problems for you. It is affectively what we're here to do more than anything else.

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Hi. Nur eine kurze Ankündigung.

Vor ein paar Wochen gab es ein Gespräch über das Konzept der "stillschweigenden Genehmigung". Wenn ihr nicht da wart fragt eure Freunde. Der Staff ist gegen solch eine Idee und hat beschlossen das es gegen die GM Konstitution gehen würde. (Zum Verständnis, der Artikel in der GM Konstitution der hier benannt wird, verbietet "kreative Bestrafungen", aber erlaubt oder fördert gerade die Bestrafung mit traditionellen Mitteln (Bann etc) und zitiert vorallem das "Weihnachtsgeschenk" in dem zwei Spielern gesagt wurde, das wenn sie das nächste Mal getötet werden, permanent Tod sind. Zu der Frage wieso dies in Kraft ist, kommen wir später wenn es um "Superbösewichte" geht.)

Wenn ihr euch eine Sache aus diesem Thread merken sollt, dann bitte "Meldet Regelbrüche!". Das Problem ist das Spieler uns immer wieder sagen das es jede Menge unfaires PK und andere Dinge im Spiel gibt, doch niemand meldet es.

Und ich kann verstehen warum. In der Vergangenheit waren wir sehr weich in Illarion. Wir haben uns darum gewunden jemanden zu bannen bis die halbe Community aufgeregt geschrieen hat das wir jene endlich bannen sollen. Wir waren viel zu weich und das wurde ausgenutzt. In Realität führt sowas zu dem, wie ich ihn nenne "Superbösewicht Komplex".

Es gibt jede Menge Leute die ich gebannt habe, die wir einfach nicht loswerden. Sie kommen wieder und wieder und versuchen entweder sich wieder reinzuschleichen oder sie versuchen uns zu hintergehen indem sie schikanierende Boardposts schreiben etc. Diese Leute hätten kleine Probleme sein können, wenn wir sie gleich gebannt hätten als wir merkten das sie nicht mit den richtigen Motiven hier sind. Doch haben wir ihnen den Vortel des Unsicherseins immer und immer gegeben bis sie zu immer größeren Bedrohungen geworden sind und am Ende hören Spieler wegen ihnen auf oder, was vielleicht noch schlimmer ist, müssen mit deren Belästigungen Tag für Tag leben und gute Mine zum bösen Spiel machen.

Also bitte meldet Regelbrüche. Meldet Pkers. Wir wollen diese Probleme für euch auf uns nehmen. Es ist immerhin genau das wofür wir wirklich hier sind.

1d20 · Post by **1d20** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:40 am

Just a little suggestion I'm throwing out there that has more or less to do with the thread's original topic; it'd be nice if when someone used !gm or reported a player, we'd receive some sort of a hint that GMs received it and are investigating it.. Sometimes, when I report someone going around hitting randomly (possibly a newbie) I often feel either completely ignored or like the !gm is broken or something because nothing happens..

So maybe an automatic command for GMs to "confirm" that they've received the call for help and are investigating it.. Maybe an automatic e-mail? Something?

I know you'll say "all calls are seen and they're all investigated!" but I mean come on, a more personal touch wouldn't do any harm and would probably incite most of us to actually take the time to use !gm

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:49 am

Related topic:

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=25695

Juliana D'cheyne · Post by **Juliana D'cheyne** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:15 am

Just a couple of thoughts:

For the record, the GM Constitution article in question doesn't allow "creative punishments," instead encouraging traditional punishments (bans, etcetera)

I think, though may be mistaken, that one player running up against an incident COULD possibly think it is isolated (and am writing this from personal experience). There are times when some players are just learning RP that they haven't thought/read/understood certain rules not necessarily of the game but general RP also. The very general game rules can also be interpreted in different ways by different players and even different GM's. For obvious and repeated infractions seen, I would say this type would be reported. It may help some players, to realize that reporting these can not necessarily get "someone in serious trouble possibly banned" but can also be an informative thing that can help those players simply learning the ropes. Having more "creative" punishments IMO could help alleviate players indecisive about reporting.

Agreeing with MoonDust, it would be helpful to have a small acknowledgement your report was received.

Post by **Nitram** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:10 am

I don't really get the point of this "hints that the page reached a gm". Every page is visible to all gms. And even in case there is currently no gm online the pages get stored in the database so they can be handled later. And they are handled. All of them.

1d20 · Post by **1d20** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:29 pm

Nitram wrote:I don't really get the point of this "hints that the page reached a gm". Every page is visible to all gms. And even in case there is currently no gm online the pages get stored in the database so they can be handled later. And they are handled. All of them.

But it'd be nice to know if a GM is handling our case at the moment we send it by getting a message "A GM has confirmed your call and is investigating it." or something similar.

Mesha · Post by **Mesha** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:53 pm

--- The message has been delivered to the GM team. --- <----- This isn't proof enough for you? That message indicates that it got through alright, and that it's in the system. Someone always check the messages, and follows up on them. Messages do not get lost, at any point in time.

Trust us Moony, we always receive your pages and follow up on them.

Aegohl · Post by **Aegohl** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:05 pm

Juliana D'cheyne wrote:Just a couple of thoughts:

I think, though may be mistaken, that one player running up against an incident COULD possibly think it is isolated (and am writing this from personal experience). There are times when some players are just learning RP that they haven't thought/read/understood certain rules not necessarily of the game but general RP also. The very general game rules can also be interpreted in different ways by different players and even different GM's.
I think we know the difference between the accidents of a noob and people being purposefully belligerent or just someone having a harmful personality. The problem is that in the past the GM team has given even the worst players several if not hundreds of tries with a nudge and a grin and a "You're not going to keep doing that, are you buddy?" Meanwhile, players have had to deal with these repeat offenders and in the long run we lose more players because of them, and find ourselves asking "would things be different if I acted at the beginning?

For obvious and repeated infractions seen, I would say this type would be reported. It may help some players, to realize that reporting these can not necessarily get "someone in serious trouble possibly banned" but can also be an informative thing that can help those players simply learning the ropes. Having more "creative" punishments IMO could help alleviate players indecisive about reporting.

Creative punishments are much more cruel than traditional punishments, however. Warnings, temporary and permanent bans, etcetera are traditional because they are a professional way of dealing with a community. People know these sorts of punishments and expect them in other communities.

On the other hand, creative punishments are cruel and unusual. They single out people and expose them to ridicule. And while sometimes embarrassment and cruelty works, we're not here to be your parents. We're not going to tell you to come over to our house so we can spank you. Instead, in the interest of being professional, we expect that you act like an adult in our community and if you don't we explain to you that you don't belong in it, anymore. While that might seem cruel, what would you expect if you violated the rules or terms of service at a corporate game?

Anyhow, as to the acknowledgement that GM's received the message, I can foresee such a thing being abused. Gm's aren't ingame all the time, fact of life. But it doesn't matter, because we *always* get the pages, regardless.

Juliana D'cheyne · Post by **Juliana D'cheyne** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:48 pm

Aegohl wrote: On the other hand, creative punishments are cruel and unusual. They single out people and expose them to ridicule.

Then my idea of "creative punishment" is totally different from yours though I am not well conversed .

I guess my thought was what was relayed to me by a new player, who was in a critical RP situation i.e. possible duel and froze taking a few minutes to get back ig yet trying to find the char that confronted his char. Immediately was taken to the GM castle and was told first thing logging out at that time was against the rules without asking for an explanation. The player actually quit playing Illa for a time and is even now concerned that is on his "record" though was allowed to leave when explained. Just pointing out a flip side though I understand the "get tough" yet have never left the game due to incidents ig with "problem" chars.