How does the "atmosphere" of Illarion feel like?

[Djironnyma]

See illarion as game is small, it have only a few players and so only a small playable area. That will not change. Accept it. Gobiath is unimportant, that will not change even if you declare every single tile to a new kingdom and call them for a bigger map.

I personally never sayed that other guilds/settlements as trolls bane make it perfect, but trolls banes "titles" are the cap of these "we-are-so-big" illusions. I agree that it is a general problem what not only trolls bane have, but trolls bane are the top of all in my opinion.

An well guys i dont know what you are argument so aggressive - i say in my opinion it is laughable - if you like your garden-barnoys, fine for you - your opinion

[Llama]

In my opinion the atmosphere of Illarion is a the illegimate child of medival and modern.

And I particularly loathe the 'modern' aspect of the game.

The things I hate most about the atmosphere are:

I) Democracy or nothing - Yes there's a town which has democracy, yes democracy was around since the ancient greeks, yes you can have your background saying that you're from a country that practices democracy but REALLY, EVERYONE? All the 'lets rebel against tb because there are no elections ;_;' rubbish

II) Peace! *smokes*

Trollsbane and SB are at war. Why are there still parties which advocate peace? In the times the game is supposed to be in, wars used to bring prestege. England and France battled over years over "I have a right to your throne", why is it that as soon as a war sparks out everyone puts flowers in their hair and becomes a hippy? Why is it that 'respect' IG is equivalent to "how many rabbits you hugged today" and not "How many enemies have you left alive?"

[Mr. Cromwell]

The problem was what I see as inconsisency of argument. What you say actually applies to directly every organization in this game. What pisses me off is the way you apply your logic just to 'one' thing in particular.

If use RL as yardstick for any IG community measurements, every community is laughable.

So, you are right, but only if you are willing to call everything else laughable too. Otherwise you're just being laughable yourself.

But I'll obey nitterz now.

[Aegohl]

Not only in medieval times was war a matter of prestige, but hell, the whole peace movement really only got it's strength a couple generations ago. The peace movement really has more to do with globalization than anything else. Suddenly we're in an era that actively propagates that our neighbors in other countries are human beings rather than savages who hate our way of life (exceptions made for the Bush administration). The senseless violence of the Spanish-American war was started because, as Theodore Roosevelt said at the time, "I should welcome almost any war, for I think this country needs one."

Democracy is another thing. Democracy is possible and good in a nation of educated people, in a government that practices transparency, in a system that provides the ability for a fair and truthful voting system. This is pretty modern stuff. Prior to a certain point in history the best you could really ask for is a benevolent dictator. While the benevolent dictator couldn't provide you with the security and care of a democratic government that works (but neither can a democratic government of the time), he'd at least, in comparison, have much less bureaucracy to pay for and thus wouldn't tax people to death.

This is why you see a recent trend in American politics of Republicans on the extreme side turning towards anarchism, because there's a feeling in certain people in America that the government isn't providing any good services in exchange for the money it taxes.

The people weren't dummies, and they would be supportive of any strong leader with bold ideas and at least some talent at cutting down his enemies.

[Taiah]

Topic-related-post:
The atmosphere in Illarion....kinda hard to define...in NOrdmark, it seems kinda barbaric to me. Drinking beer, singing songs, killing elves...it's cool *g*

Not to mention torture. I have only gotten the "flavor" of two towns as the others I have been to (and haven't been to all of them) seem basically empty except for the stray visitor or party here and there. Due to the roleplay it appears to me that Nordmark is definitely more medieval and "barbaric"with none of the "enlightenment" I have seen in Trolls Bane yet it is a smaller town and less varied players. Perhaps instead of discussing what is and not helpful in game such as nobles, it would be best to discuss where you would like different towns to go roleplay-wise. Not necessarily making it a rule so much as a post of the general atmosphere because it seem Trolls Bane particularly as Nitram pointed out changes depending on who the players are. In order to help that situation, possibly have a post written about all the towns such as goals, how they are in relation to a medieval setting, what the main professions and races are which would be a general guideline to follow and also make the towns more varied?

[Hawkmoon]

If we don't want democracy in the game world - then countries like Salkamar should not exist.

I feel like I am a bit targeted from Vigalf here since my char Fred discuss the matter of slaves with Fred right now. If I had known Illarian was as democratic as it was when I joined the game I would probably have played Hawk as an Albarian knight but not easy to know when it is my first char. As I see Salkamar the nobles there do rule but since the people are well educated they need to behave well. They have responsibilites and don't have the advantage as they Albarian nobles have when it comes to literacy. All people in Salkamar can read and in Albaria pretty much the nobles, priests and the merchants can read as I see it (might be wrong though). This explains why these countries are so different though.

Elves society do believe in respecting all creatures as far as I know which makes slaves there impossible while the orcs gladly have slaves I guess.

My point is that i do believe the democratic view is too common overall, but since my char, Fred, is a Salkamarian knight who has been taught a view of ruling that is a bit extreme even in Salkamar (pretty much "all are friendly and should be respected untill the opposite is proven or so...) this makes me guilty of this view as well of course.

I really would like to see rules of Gobaith supressing the inhabitants and so on. Would be cool and would also make the differences between the elf society and Trolls Bane more obvious. And maybe Varshikar would be like a place for those who want to stay away from surpressing rulers.

Not sure how TB will turn out but it feels like it going into the more strict ruling - but we'll see. =) I really wanted to create Hawk as a person WAY too democratic for most people on the island, but it turned out he has pretty much the same view as most nice people. =)

Ah, well... Long post but maybe my point shines through somehow...

Oh... People should be more religious in the game for sure. Really miss that part of the game. Ah, well... That is all for now. =)

[Taliss Kazzxs]

Everyone knows you can have all the slaves you want in Illa...

so long as they are heretic lizards

[Kranek]

@Hawkmoon:
I thought about pointing at you but i didn't
I ment the guys from Albar who play like hippie-democratic-peacelovers
Your char is fair, I know that. Thats why i didnt mean you!

[Llama]

If we don't want democracy in the game world - then countries like Salkamar should not exist.

It shouldn't be the norm, or rather the EXPECTED form of government.

If a country performs ritualistic human sacrifices it doesn't mean that all countries should.

The problem is the modern thinking - if you think about it, asking a bunch of farmers, peasents and woodcutters how to run a country, as opposed to letting someone who's been taught in it, sounds pretty stupid.

[Olive]

Dont be confusing democracy with a republic

currently there are no democracies in the world, but many republics and constitutional monarchies.

Ancient Greece had nearly true democracy, but only because the populations of these cities was low, and less than half the population was even able to vote

[Mr. Cromwell]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy

Like the People's Republic of China or Islamic Republic of Iran? Republic means very little.. We're representative democracies.

As for Salkamar, it's nowhere directly said that they're actually a democracy, or at least a direct democracy. Even if they had some democracy, then it would be probable that restrictions would include, by minimum, citizenship, perhaps wealth.

If you actually stop to think about it for a moment, it's likely that Salkamar would actually be an elective monarchy. This in fact has very little to do with democracy. The electors could, in fact, be an assembly of nobles as in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth or designated electors (as in TB and the Holy Roman Empire). The whole wording of "The Salkamaerian kings and nobles are understand[sic] to be representatives of the people and are often wise and good regents." is quite ambiguous. They can be the representatives of people, chosen by the nobles who represent the people in various geographical areas. This doesn't mean that anybody would actually go ask Joe Dungfeet the Farmer's opinion regarding the election.

[Pellandria]

I didn't read all of that, because I simply lack the time currently, I just want to say that, knowing the "old Illa", Ilalrion went form "You can do all the things, except the ones in the rules" to a "You can jsut do what the rulesallow you too" game.

Ilalrion always was a gem among the world of games, because you were allowed to be who you want to be, obviously in certaint boundaries, nowadays it seems that Illarion is "pussyfied", m,eaning that you can just be a friendly throwing flowers around player, else you sooner or later will get problems, this is what treally annoys me.

I say we need to push the game up to age 18 again and let every more free hand, we just can win with this, because currently, atmosphere really is something missing in Illarion.

Immersion into the game can jsut happen, if the game itself has atmosphere, and to have any kind of "atmosphere" it has to feel "real" you still get this feeling with chars you know, but the whole world always seems ~off~ none the less.

So the atmosphere is still there, sadly only in secluded areals or with certaint groups you are familiar with, the uniqueness of Illarion has gone, sadly andthe constant struggle to make the game more child friendly is still the wrong way in my eyes.

[Hawkmoon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy

Like the People's Republic of China or Islamic Republic of Iran? Republic means very little.. We're representative democracies.

As for Salkamar, it's nowhere directly said that they're actually a democracy, or at least a direct democracy. Even if they had some democracy, then it would be probable that restrictions would include, by minimum, citizenship, perhaps wealth.

If you actually stop to think about it for a moment, it's likely that Salkamar would actually be an elective monarchy. This in fact has very little to do with democracy. The electors could, in fact, be an assembly of nobles as in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth or designated electors (as in TB and the Holy Roman Empire). The whole wording of "The Salkamaerian kings and nobles are understand[sic] to be representatives of the people and are often wise and good regents." is quite ambiguous. They can be the representatives of people, chosen by the nobles who represent the people in various geographical areas. This doesn't mean that anybody would actually go ask Joe Dungfeet the Farmer's opinion regarding the election.

Of course you are right. But the text also say that the Salkamaerian nobles are known as righteous leaders as well if I remember it correctly. And then add the fact that all people go to school in Salkamar and that the empire is known for sholars and bards and so on and you get a picture of a pretty happy, enlightened and free people which at least have democratic and socialistic ideas if you know what I mean.

[Desmond Ignatious]

Very very good topic.. quite critical however.

The fact of the matter is Roleplayers are not average gamers. Roleplayers tend to be those people who think freely, challenging or simply retaining their personal opinions despite what anyone tells them. People who tag along, tend to not get into role playing, and this is why we have the abundance of dark age hippies. I am not a prime example of the darkness of illarion, my chars tend to be friendly and lighthearted always swaying on the good side regardless of what they appear as. And I know this is a problem, but as long as there are new players, and veterans to show them it is ok for everyone to behave as such, it will never change. I have a theory: Simply by allowing our characters to be Stupid and Ignorant which I know that doesn't seem like a lustrous way to go, but honestly your character does not have to be oozing with quick wittiness, which is and as far as I remember has always been the face of the Gobaith Population.

Fix number 2: GM rules, which take away from your freedom, so one or the other.

Ahem back to start >_>

In my initial experience with Illarion, the one atmosphere which I perceived. Was simply "Norse" The gods, the dwarfs, the elves, the goblins, the trolls, the fashion... all of it Norse.. Not English, not french. However it is fantasy, and as nitram stated before, many elements were pulled pulled together, those elements had rounds of unprotected sex with one another and gave birth to a European Fable Mutt. I love it, that's all I have to say let it be fed and prosper.

PS: Everyone is good looking in illarion unless pre-determined by racial boundaries. But meh, who want's to be ugly yeah?

[Mr. Cromwell]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy

Like the People's Republic of China or Islamic Republic of Iran? Republic means very little.. We're representative democracies.

As for Salkamar, it's nowhere directly said that they're actually a democracy, or at least a direct democracy. Even if they had some democracy, then it would be probable that restrictions would include, by minimum, citizenship, perhaps wealth.

If you actually stop to think about it for a moment, it's likely that Salkamar would actually be an elective monarchy. This in fact has very little to do with democracy. The electors could, in fact, be an assembly of nobles as in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth or designated electors (as in TB and the Holy Roman Empire). The whole wording of "The Salkamaerian kings and nobles are understand[sic] to be representatives of the people and are often wise and good regents." is quite ambiguous. They can be the representatives of people, chosen by the nobles who represent the people in various geographical areas. This doesn't mean that anybody would actually go ask Joe Dungfeet the Farmer's opinion regarding the election.

Of course you are right. But the text also say that the Salkamaerian nobles are known as righteous leaders as well if I remember it correctly. And then add the fact that all people go to school in Salkamar and that the empire is known for sholars and bards and so on and you get a picture of a pretty happy, enlightened and free people which at least have democratic and socialistic ideas if you know what I mean.

Of course, I am right. However, I suggest we spend a moment reading the passage about Salkamaerians like the devil reads the bible.
"are often wise and good regents" <- Indirectly implies the presence of occasional bad leader.
"All children learn reading and writing" <- Is very far from universal education, as even the wording doesn't sound very definite to my ears. "Readning and writing"? Some? Why not "to read and write"?
Imagine the situation to be somewhat similar to the Swedish Kingdom at the middle ages and onwards, except more commonplace when it comes to basic level access. As far as I've understood, the basic education in medieval sweden on the coutnryside (not to everyone, though!) was given by monks. We could assume that in Salkamar, all children learn the basics by studying part time in a monastery (with the richest families affording to hire private tutors) but only the brightest children and those coming from affluent families would continue studies in a school as we understand it. Joe the Famer's children would be soon back, sowing, plowing and shoveling manure, like the gods intended.

[Hawkmoon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy
Of course you are right. But the text also say that the Salkamaerian nobles are known as righteous leaders as well if I remember it correctly. And then add the fact that all people go to school in Salkamar and that the empire is known for sholars and bards and so on and you get a picture of a pretty happy, enlightened and free people which at least have democratic and socialistic ideas if you know what I mean.

Of course, I am right. However, I suggest we spend a moment reading the passage about Salkamaerians like the devil reads the bible.
"are often wise and good regents" <- Indirectly implies the presence of occasional bad leader.
"All children learn reading and writing" <- Is very far from universal education, as even the wording doesn't sound very definite to my ears. "Readning and writing"? Some? Why not "to read and write"?
Imagine the situation to be somewhat similar to the Swedish Kingdom at the middle ages and onwards, except more commonplace when it comes to basic level access. As far as I've understood, the basic education in medieval sweden on the coutnryside (not to everyone, though!) was given by monks. We could assume that in Salkamar, all children learn the basics by studying part time in a monastery (with the richest families affording to hire private tutors) but only the brightest children and those coming from affluent families would continue studies in a school as we understand it. Joe the Famer's children would be soon back, sowing, plowing and shoveling manure, like the gods intended.

"4.1.3 Characteristics
There are some ancient ruins and fundaments in Salkamar, which have been completely explored and now mainly serve as warehouses. An ancient theatre has been excavated and restored.

All children reaching the age of four learn to read and write, calculating, philosophy, poetry and historical knowledge at schools three times a week. As from the age of twelve all children have the duty to follow lessons in using swords and shields. At the age of 14 all children are rated according to their abilities and talents, then taught on public expense for two years in a subject of their choice as they qualify therein. The best qualified of the age-groups are then educated at the academy of Salkamar, this is why many teenagers of the entire empire can be found there. Also the garrison of Salkamar instructs every year many recruits. Children from poorer families – which is quite rare in Salkamar, as the state finances many basics for living for poor inhabitants – often start a military education in the legion."

EDIT. Of course there are bad rulers as well, but it seems like they are quite few in Salkamar - at least according to me.

[Mr. Cromwell]

Oh, well.. With that bullshit, no wonder. Okay, I give up. Da.. Salkamar sucks.

[Fooser]

the government isn't providing any good services in exchange for the money it taxes.

truth

Trollsbane and SB are at war. Why are there still parties which advocate peace?

Yesterday no one feared death, today they'd rather have peace than die .. the horrors

[Mesha]

Oh, well.. With that bullshit, no wonder. Okay, I give up. Da.. Salkamar sucks.

Sometimes makes me wonder what Damien's been smoking.

On-topic: Illarion for me has been a sort of melting pot of extravagant, eccentric people of various races put together. Sort of like an Albarian state prison for the mentally retarded (in a good way). So only the most gorgeous, megalomaniac (or pacifistic) people join in here. And all that coated with a mildly medieval sauce with modern spicing.

Many of my old characters fit that picture anyway!

[Rugh'toh]

Orcs do believe in the gods... well, in one at least.
Orcs do know that their God does help them, as proven in past.
Orcs do know nothing about democracy.
Orcs do not act always act nice.
Orcs will rule the world, then any building and any tree will belong us... well, at least the Father.

If you want medieval atmosphere, come and join the orcs

[AlexRose]

If you want medieval atmosphere, come and join the orcs

Yep, the bayeux tapestry's covered in orcs.

[Karrock]

I miss of chauvinism to women, strangers and racism to other races.
Higher taxes and prices for goods for nothumans in trollsbane would be nice but now I can see just happy peaceful societies which live together in love. Where are those metaphysics atmosphere of superstisions which were before age of radio, tv, age of information ? Why black is always black and white always white ? Why in two sides of conflict chars choose this who has a rational right never this one who believes in that same religion or is the same race ?

[AlexRose]

I once said something ig like "Well, you're the woman, you clean it up" and then like 8 people were going "OMG THAT'S SEXIST HOW DARE YOU, LEAVE THIS PLACE".

[Taliss Kazzxs]

I kinda dislike the current atmosphere of Gobaith..there is no longer any good and evil, black and white. Everything from the nobles to the cults from the knights to the bandits, its all grey.

[Athian]

I kinda dislike the current atmosphere of Gobaith..there is no longer any good and evil, black and white. Everything from the nobles to the cults from the knights to the bandits, its all grey.

"Grey" makes far more sense then cut and dry good/evil nonsense. There has never been in any history a completely wicked person nor a completely good person. Human nature simply tends to denote qualities of good and evil as "things group A likes" and "Things group B likes"

when the two parties don't share similar beliefs to the point of intolerance they most often label each other as evil and good. Though it's an extreme in my context the general idea still applies.

Admittedly not having the 'grey' phase will make the game literal "stupid" fun. with no need to think, rationalize or build character and story depth. It would probably smooth out the wrinkles in out atmosphere in some ways (aside from the unyielding 'evil must lose in the end" concept that never ceases to give me headaches) But it would make the game alot less involving

[Taliss Kazzxs]

You missed my point, though your response of course was very well written.

Given... the concept of clear cut good and evil sounds quite immature, but it is the best way to keep ongoing and fun conflict. In our current situation, it seems every player in the game is either dark or neutral to every single matter and event that takes place. Any char that use to devoutly enforce morals and righteousness have long since died off, quite playing, or changed to a state of empathy.

That leaves a main town owned by a naughty cult, whilst only a hand full of people have a problem with it.

The most conflict that happens in todays Illarion (from the players) is the occasional group of dwarves getting hacked on for pride and disillusion of strength.

I disagree from the statement of evil always being the unfortunate loser, since I have been playing since back in 06, every time good fought evil evil has won aside from the times staff brought an evil force to the island so players can team up and wack on them.

In general I'm just saying with more people with clashing morals it introduces more interesting conflict.

[Retlak]

It sucks now that the temple owns 60% of all guilds and towns.

We better start kicking out some members so we can have some fun wars of "good vs evil" again.

[Athian]

You missed my point, though your response of course was very well written.

Given... the concept of clear cut good and evil sounds quite immature, but it is the best way to keep ongoing and fun conflict. In our current situation, it seems every player in the game is either dark or neutral to every single matter and event that takes place. Any char that use to devoutly enforce morals and righteousness have long since died off, quite playing, or changed to a state of empathy.

That leaves a main town owned by a naughty cult, whilst only a hand full of people have a problem with it.

The most conflict that happens in todays Illarion (from the players) is the occasional group of dwarves getting hacked on for pride and disillusion of strength.

I disagree from the statement of evil always being the unfortunate loser, since I have been playing since back in 06, every time good fought evil evil has won aside from the times staff brought an evil force to the island so players can team up and wack on them.

In general I'm just saying with more people with clashing morals it introduces more interesting conflict.

Wrong i didn't miss your point. You didn't explain it, Now you did and see! it's a million times better.

Only 06 Taliss? Such a newbie ^^

I don't entirely disagree with your view, but the idea that player characters are going to be able to play a consistently evil role is a bit too idealistic.

For this to be possible we would literally need to clone the isle. Accommodating these evil groups to effect would require we duplicate near everything on Gobiath and then do our best to keep both these factions from ever mixing in any way except conflict, lest they share and trade idea's and values and muddle into the world of the 'gray'.

Since however this game thrives on the interaction between players and not the segregation of roles we can't ever really hope that left to our own devices the realms of good and evil will remain separate. We have certainly had many well played truly evil characters. They are in effect short-lived (for better or worse) because they must be. The environment of Gobiath does not tolerate these strictly black and white characters because over long periods of time and interactions they will either meet there doom to our gray players or through that same interaction become tainted by those around them.

If you pour a tiny bit of white (or black) paint into gray it may change the shade however slightly but in the end our gray remains irreversibly mixed.

The best villian's have always been GM played as history will show. They come they cause there strife and they vanish or die off as they should, leaving the world to change its shade in after-effect. Some players have also managed this feat, though we can notice that many "EVIL" player characters become beloved by their players, and in order to survive in Gobiath they become 'less' threatening, less evil to those whom they will build there future roles with.

Hostilities of course remain within all our characters, as do bias, hatreds, vendetta's, and feuds. These are the elements that players should concentrate on when building conflicts between each other. Let the mass and the annuals of history decide who is evil or good. When we truly need a dose of universal evil lets leave it up to our staff to provide. They are certainly better equipped to satisfy.

[Aegohl]

If we don't want democracy in the game world - then countries like Salkamar should not exist.

Salkamar is not democratic. It's not even a Republic. Hell, it's not even a contracted monarchy. It's a dictatorship like anywhere else in the gameworld with the exception that it has a tradition of welfare and a certain amount of equality.

I think of Salkamar as a culture that sprung up during a rather romantic age in art and philosophy and holds true to that heritage of being the idealistic wild child of the world. However, to it's people the nobles of Salkamar are like hippy parents. On one hand they allow you a lot freedom and room to experiment. On the other hand, they named you "Sprite Flower," embarrassed you by smoking pot with your friends, and let you get away with mischief when they should have been setting boundaries. For all it's high ideals, Salkamar is still a dictatorship, there's still economic duality between nobles and the lowest orders, and nobles still get away with murder or worse.

[Estralis Seborian]

I agree with Nitram; Illarion lacks a true, defined atmosphere. We have plenty of wierd stories about the main land, but what happens in the game is shaped by the players. And this, on the one hand, makes Illarion rather unique, but on the other hand, makes it hard for players to orientate and maintain a certain "red thread".

So - "chaotic" is my answer.