Death needs additional penalties

Thereadore · Post by **Thereadore** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 8:47 pm

I think that death needs additional penalties besides just skill loss. The main reason I think this is not being killed by a monster, but by being killed by a player.

Too many times someone will attack me, and I will beat them to submission, then they regain consciousness and attack me again. I kill them, they go get raised and attack me AGAIN.

They don't care if they die, and that is just plain stupid in my opionion. They obviously don't have any skills to speak of, because if they did they wouldn't want to loose them, and since they are such fools I'm sure they die repeatedly and don't RP death at all.

Some suggestions I can think of as additional pentalties for PvP death:
o You remain a ghost for a period of time, say 5 minutes.
o You remain very weak for a period of time, say 15 minutes
o You drop some random item you are carrying or wearing
o You become lootable
o You can't attack another player for a period of time (say 1 hour)
o You drop all your items and have to go get then once you are rezed
o Another death in a short period of time makes you loose more skills than normal
o You get disconnected from the game for 15 minutes
o You heal much slower for a period of time such as 1 hour
o You are encumbered at a lower weight for a period of time such as 15 minutes
o All of your base stats (str, int, dex, etc...) go down by one for a day
o Your attacks on other players have half effect for a period of time such as 1 hour
o Your parry skills and magic resistance become zero for a period of time, say 1 hour

Mix and match or other suggestion to *force* people to accept death as a bad thing to be avoided, and to actually role play being killed and not just brush it off as a stubbed toe.

Caranthir the great · Post by **Caranthir the great** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 9:02 pm

o You get disconnected from the game for 15 minutes

No!

o Another death in a short period of time makes you loose more skills than normal

Yeah right, a multikillers wonderland.

o Your parry skills and magic resistance become zero for a period of time, say 1 hour

Look above.

o You drop all your items and have to go get then once you are rezed
o You become lootable

Dransik?

o You remain very weak for a period of time, say 15 minutes

This sounds.. Moderate. We have too much killing already, and this would not certainly ease the situation of those who just want to live their lives.
Death shouldn't be punished, it should be avoided.

Darlok · Post by **Darlok** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 9:21 pm

You get disconnected from the game for 15 minutes

Very intressting, but 5 Minutes are enouth. This grands you the time the catch a new Coffe (or whatever you drink) and rejoin the on going action refreshed (also mentaly cooled down).

Thereadore · Post by **Thereadore** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 9:23 pm

Caranthir the great wrote:Death shouldn't be punished, it should be avoided.

I absolutely agree with this. Unfortunately, there are just way too many players who don't agree with this, and don't role play the fact that they can/will/did die at all.

So my thinking is since they don't care about skill loss so they don't avoid death, give them some other pentalty that they don't want so they will avoid death.

My suggestion is not really aimed for people who die every once in so great a while. Only those who die repeatedly for their own non rping BS.

As far as the question about Dransik, I don't know, I don't think I've ever played Dransik, although I might have. I've played LOTS of RPGs, too numerous to count. All have some type of penalty on death. Most have skill loss, some have item droppage, some have the ghost modes, some have "death effects" where you are weaker for a period of time, etc...

Ellaron · Post by **Ellaron** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 9:48 pm

I'm sorry but I disagree with your idea. You are only looking at it from the righteous killer of a killer point of view. What happens if it is you that is killed by a sniper or just someone stronger than you who's "been posessed"? It's bad enough now losing skills through no fault of your own without added penalties.

Darlok · Post by **Darlok** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:00 pm

The Feature of "Looting" will come. Its simply a thing of logic. A death body on the ground is not protected from stealing.

But i think this little "Time Out" is very very good. I expierienced more than one time, that a Player who just fall in a battle floats to the cross and simply came back as if i had never chop his Characters head of.
This cant go on like that. Death is nothing what a Character fears, its only something distrubing.

When you are forced to log out (best when your at cross and rescureced), some nice little sentance apears:

"You have been brought back the Life, but the Horror of the Afterlife requires that you take a small Rest now."

A "little" five minute Break from the game would nothing a player cant stand.

I am for this, even when this means i have to wait these 5 Minutes.

Thereadore · Post by **Thereadore** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:04 pm

Yes, that could be a problem, but some of the suggestions look at how many times you've died recently (such as the additional skill loss)

Perhaps all of them could only be applied if you had died in the previous 24 hours or such?

Or, if you were not killed with an arrow?

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:50 pm

personally i would rather lose all my items than skills because you can buy more items, skills are hard to raise. the five minute thing seems reasonable.

Niniane · Post by **Niniane** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:56 pm

You have to count arrows in the same way as you would count a sword. There are many characters that are specifically archers (not pk archers otherwise known as 'snipers' but good rp people who use the bow as their weapon of choice). If an arrow did not have the same effect as other weapons against others in how it deals with death it would be unfair to those of us who rely on it for defense.

I do not like the idea of a character dropping items when killed for the reason that it would inspire player killing instead of reducing it. Any player who sees an older player who has better items is going to take the risk and try to kill them, or will resort to the 'sniping' or poisoning tactics or other pk activities. They will carry nothing but what they need to kill so if they are killed they will lose nothing of value while attacking from afar and kill those who have better armor for no rp reason other than to get rich quick. The land would be loaded with murderous thieves! (Poor roleplaying ones at that.)

In my opinion your best suggestion (the looting being the other good suggestion but it is already planned, in my opinion the others would make player killing worse than it is now and would benefit the bad roleplayers much more than it would the good for the reasons given by the other posters) is the one regarding a time out of game period. This would add more realism to many different scenarios! In those battle scenes a person would not die and be back in the fight a minute later. This is something that has always bothered me. It would also deter many of the random pk's from killing and being caught then coming back and starting all over again from a different location. I think that the time period should be between 5 and 10 minutes because people do not have all day to sit around and wait but they should also have to be out of world for a period of time because they are in fact dead. This would also allow the player to keep as much of their skill as possible instead of them remaining in the game as a ghost which would deplete hard earned skills for some players who may have been the victim of a random pk instead of a roleplaying death.

My own addition to this proposal is to remove the cross close to town or at least to move it farther away. In doing so it would force a ghost to remain a ghost for a longer period of time while they went in search of a far off cross. It would make death more drastic which needs to be done. If the one who died was deserving of a death it is not likely that a mage will heal them, and a longer journey to a cross to be healed will give them more of a punishment then a 15 second float to the one in town. I know this would cause the new players a little more grief but death should not be made such a light subject as it is. The skill system becoming harder was a great step forward but others are needed to make death seem more like death rather than an inconvenience. The added skill loss in this time if meandering to a far off cross would be minimal but also an added deterrent (as opposed to the restricted time of mandatory death because if they were undeserving of death or had friends in the area who could heal them, they could be healed instead of having to go to the cross far away.)

Cain Freemont · Post by **Cain Freemont** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 12:33 am

You would punish those who can do nothing to prevent their death? There's enough that comes with death. My opinion on this matter: No. No more punishments are needed for deaths.

Ellaron · Post by **Ellaron** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 1:23 am

Since PK'ing, killing outside the bounds of role play, is punishable by the GM's perhaps PMS (Player Multiple Suicides, no pun intended) should also be. After all, death is about the only deterrent we have. If some one has no fear of death we can do little to them. Perhaps they should be locked up for their own safety?

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 3:15 am

I think things are fine the way they are. If someone is foolish enough to try and kill you again after dying then I would say its their own fault they loose their skills. Punishing people's death will only have a greater toll on the average player. I also think that disconnecting someone from the game is not a fair idea as it would intefere with roleplaying, and again, a lot of the average players are only killed in rare incidents, say during a demon attack. Lots of people know just how darn annoying it is when you disconnect in the demon cave and re-enter dead. This would be the case with during a demon attack which, I think, justifies a good enough reason for this not to happen.
I know there are lots of people like me who think that the skill loss right now is too much, especially now its so much harder to regain that skill. If everytime we died we lost everything we had then I feel the game would loose its fun.

Kringin · Post by **Kringin** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 3:34 am

There is enough punishment for Death as there is. No more Punishments.

Me not agree to any of this, that is all, good-bye.

Dracon · Post by **Dracon** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:16 am

Thereadore wrote:I think that death needs additional penalties besides just skill loss. The main reason I think this is not being killed by a monster, but by being killed by a player.

Too many times someone will attack me, and I will beat them to submission, then they regain consciousness and attack me again. I kill them, they go get raised and attack me AGAIN.

They don't care if they die, and that is just plain stupid in my opionion. They obviously don't have any skills to speak of, because if they did they wouldn't want to loose them, and since they are such fools I'm sure they die repeatedly and don't RP death at all.

Some suggestions I can think of as additional pentalties for PvP death:
o You remain a ghost for a period of time, say 5 minutes.
o You remain very weak for a period of time, say 15 minutes
o You drop some random item you are carrying or wearing
o You become lootable
o You can't attack another player for a period of time (say 1 hour)
o You drop all your items and have to go get then once you are rezed
o Another death in a short period of time makes you loose more skills than normal
o You get disconnected from the game for 15 minutes
o You heal much slower for a period of time such as 1 hour
o You are encumbered at a lower weight for a period of time such as 15 minutes
o All of your base stats (str, int, dex, etc...) go down by one for a day
o Your attacks on other players have half effect for a period of time such as 1 hour
o Your parry skills and magic resistance become zero for a period of time, say 1 hour

Mix and match or other suggestion to *force* people to accept death as a bad thing to be avoided, and to actually role play being killed and not just brush it off as a stubbed toe.

What are you Crazy!!! I've had enough punishment from death becaues of some mummy following me to a yellow cross and I bet you know what happend after that!

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:56 am

I agree with Cain. Death has enough penalties as it is with the skill loss, and now skills 10x harder to raise. The penalties you listed Thereadore I do not agree with because they waste too much time. Not all of us have the time to play illarion for hours, and not being able to play for 15 minutes and such just because of death would be an annoyance that would drive people to play illarion less.

To solve the problem you mentioned with people getting revived and attacking again, perhaps a rule should be added to the one that states "No multikilling". The rule could be "No multi-attempted-killing".

Radurak · Post by **Radurak** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 6:23 am

The only problem I have seen once, was a female orc attacking a hobbit. The problem was that orc and hobbit kept fighting each other for about an hour until the orc logged out.

Other than that, it seems fine the way it is. Personally, I haven't seen anyone just walk up to a random person and start attacking. I have realized that most who do this are new and...bored I guess.

I would only like to say if someone tries to pick on you, TRY to end it! While walking around in the past, I've noticed that many try to continue fights. Unless someone keeps attacking, I say just let them be. As I already mentioned it is fine the way it is. It isn't like someone attacks a random person every minute.

Radurak A. Bragol

Thereadore · Post by **Thereadore** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 10:45 am

For the general person, it is fine. I tend to agree that anything would hurt the "normal" player, but something needs to be done about the ones who don't care about death. As someone stated, it is the only deterent we have.

I have seen numerous people attack someone, or get attacked, then get killed, float to the cross, come back and attack the player who attacked them again.

I kinda like the idea of moving the cross farther away, though. That might help the most. Maybe move the cross from it's current possition by the mummies back to the Seahorse Inn.

That way I think everyone would be happy.

Aragon · Post by **Aragon** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 10:55 am

Perhaps mail such people to violations@illarion.org, cause this isn't a roleplay behavouir.
If a person is dead, it is good roleplay to stay away from the people, whom has killed them.
Attacking again and again shows only a lack of understanding in roleplay.
This isn't a purpose, that can be fully avoided by technical sanctions and changes.

Thereadore · Post by **Thereadore** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 11:04 am

Well, this doesn't seem to be a rulable defense. That is, there is no specific rule against it, but I think that all true RPers would tend to agree that it is extremely poor RP.

Is horrible RP actually an offense? Maybe it should be.

Darlok · Post by **Darlok** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 12:01 pm

Some People get the Idea of the Disconnect-Penalty totaly wrong.
Again for those:

1. You get Killed.
2. You turn into Spirit Form.
3. You float around in search of Healer / Cross
4. You get Rescurrected.
5. You get a 5 Minute Penalty.

I would realy like to see when poeple dont be able to join again a fight they already lost.

Remember the Attacks of the Demon, Chars got killed, seconds later they are fighting again. That is just ... stupid (dont want to use "uneralistic").

Think about the poistive Aspects.

Thereadore · Post by **Thereadore** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 12:14 pm

Thinking about it, the 5 minute penalty would work for both PvP and Monster deaths too.

It would work realistically in both GM events, such as demon attacks, and normal monster fighting such as mummies, skeletons, demons and such.

It would slow down powergamers who would attack each other by the cross, although I think that the unconsciousness probably helps them more now.

It would help against multiple-player-attacking.

It would help RP also, I think, in that if someone did attack the town and started killing anyone, for a truely RP reason of course and a darn good one at that, they could take over the town since it would be empty of people.

It would give the GM events a greater foothold also, and maybe tone them down a bit since now instead of 20 people defending the town over and over, it gets less and less as the battle progresses.

Okay, so what is really bad about the 5 minute penalty as Darlok described it perfectly? If you are a casual dier, it may effect you once every, what, week? Month?

If you are a warrior, you will try not to die as much, that is for sure, and that should be a good thing.

If you are a nusiance player who just likes to attack others, it will curtail you also.

If someone attacks someone to keep them from causing havoc, it would actually do that now. They are wreaking havoc, you kill them, they are gone for 5 minutes at least.

So, what is bad about this then?

Fieps · Post by **Fieps** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 12:29 pm

Exactly my opinion, Darlok.... thanks.

Dont know who think that is a realistic "Rp" when i lose a fight and come back to continue the contest, but in my opion this have noting to do with a "good play".
Sometimes, or often? i hope such behaviour would be punished.

I don´t know if it is possible to avoid that persons continue a fight they have already lost, but when i hope the "developer" will realize it sometime.

Theredore wrote: It would slow down powergamers who would attack each other by the cross

You know that this is forbidden?
Its not allowed to "follow" a spirit to cross to attack or kill the person again.

Adano Eles · Post by **Adano Eles** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 12:34 pm

I have no problem with such a time penalty, if it goes hand in hand with a decrease of the size of the GM attacks. It is also unrealistic if Trolls Bane is overrun by orcs, skeletons or demons every two weeks because the few defenders who were there have been slain while the GMs send wave after wave of new attackers.
A fight to regain control of the town would be something interesting once, but not everytime.

Darlok · Post by **Darlok** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 12:48 pm

I am sure these attacks will change if the "Defenders" are realy in need of a decent Tactic, because thier forces become limited.

But the perfect example was one of the last attacks:
The Demon Ashkatuul was near the Cross (not doing anything), a dwarf came up and attackt him. One stroke and the dwarf was down. He went to the cross , and restartet his attacking. Again he died.

Now i ask myself, what would i have done in the position of the GM?
I dont think i would have done anything else than he did.

So i belive a chance of the attacks will follow almost automaticly when the defenders better care for thier own life than waste them in senseless attack runs.

Fieps · Post by **Fieps** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 1:00 pm

Hmm.... thats right.
For example the orc attack, i believe that were more than 300 orcs / enemies but only ten players which defended the town.
How should they escape/or avoid a "fight" when the whole town is infiltrated by hundred of orcs?

And at the time it is the same, the town is every day under attack from hundred of skeletons and other monsters ( i know it have "his" sense ) but only a few persons fight for the town and only a few persons have the "power" to defeat a beholder for example. But then you see that there are over ten from this race.....
a whole town have less fighters that the aggressor every day, thats just not fair......

I describe the whole situation now with a "massacre" and its equal if the person is new or "old", if you are no warrior, you have no chance.
Because there is no place where can people go to escape the war.
So.... don´t play or die and this every day again and again, and so you can lose all your fun in playing this game.....

Thereadore · Post by **Thereadore** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 1:05 pm

Well, I"m sure the GMs stage their attacks based on how the game works. If the game starts to work differently, they would change the way they attack for sure.

But I do see one problem. Say there is a GM event, a demon attack. 20 people go to attack, and 10 die. Now you have 10 ghosts who don't want to go get rezed because they know as soon as they do they'll get disconnected for 5 minutes and they want to see the rest of the attack.

So now you have 10 people trying to fight the demons with 10 ghosts getting in the way.

Darlok · Post by **Darlok** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 2:23 pm

Thereadore, i think you forget one (or two) things.

1. If you remain a spirit, you loose constantly Skills. If its the price you are willing to pay to watch the battle, than you are allowed to do so.
(You can also ask the surviurs later on a campfire.)

2. Spirits , at this stage of the game, do not only block Characters but also Monsters. So they might be "usefull" in some sort.
(I am sure later Ghost float simply through everything.)

Darlok · Post by **Darlok** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 4:22 pm

Darkform,

Ghost did move slower in the past. This has been changed. I dont think it will change back.

By the way, dont put a single sentance in the sujectflied where noone might look at.

What does "nt" mean?

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 9:19 pm

Remember the Attacks of the Demon, Chars got killed, seconds later they are fighting again. That is just ... stupid (dont want to use "uneralistic").

I have read all the following discussions from this too, so I am not hastily typing.
I have just one problem with this as I mentioned, if there was a demon attack and you got resurected at the cross, but the monsters were at the cross when you logged out .. then when you logged in again it would be likely they are still there (or replaced by flames which a lot of mages do in awkward places).
So I think that before anything like this happens the area of the cross should be flame proof ( so you dont log into a fire ) and should be a monster free zone, as they are scared of the cross or it causes them harm..
Also, it should be illegal to push someone off the cross area into a flame or monster if they have been resed there.

Viola Thistle · Post by **Viola Thistle** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 10:26 pm

I'm wondering if this suggestion is being considered by the developers.

I think a break from the game after death is a great idea for all the reasons already stated. However, I suggested 24 hours on another board before logging back on. ((Good thing I'm not in charge here, huh? I'd put the smack down!

)) Five minutes does sound more reasonable though.

Death should be a REAL consequence. If things are kept as they are, it should be called Injured not Death and the crosses changed to medical shacks or something.

I'm not saying I would be pissed if I were killed and had to disconnect, weather it be a monster, a rp'd fight, a PK, whatever. Though I and many others would choose what battles to fight in. A journey to a monster hangout would have REAL consequences and therefore the characters should have a pretty good reason for going and understand the risks involved. Worriors would show their heroism by fighting monsters in town attacks instead of fleeing to escape the "Dreadful Disconnect".

Anyway, if this is still under consideration, I like the 5 min. disconnect idea. Five minute pause is always good for a potty break and coffee refill!

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Death needs additional penalties

Death needs additional penalties

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