Town Guards (Yes again)

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:10 pm

Yes, I made this proposal once already, but this time I think I worked out the minor ideas to have a possible system, again I leave it for your consideration.
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Currently, banning people from towns is a rather silly thing. If I wanted to, I could come into town when you're not online, or if I'm strong enough go into town anyway and beat the dirt out of you. Or I just run. Either way, its a pretty silly thing, and very ineffective.

Now some settlements have gatehouses and walls, and I think they should be allowed to keep certain people OUT. Obviously you COULD give people keys and lock others out, but that's a rather silly idea, since you'd want other people to come in. So I suggest... town guards.

The doors of the towns with gatehouses will be permantly locked, amongst each door there shall be a townguard, which when talked to, will teleport you across the door. (Its not roleplayed as that, but rather him allowing you to cross). This shall also keep monsters from gettign through, another good thing.

The real use of the gates is to ban people properly. Each guard/trusted person will have two items (lets call them scrolls) - a scroll of judgment and a scroll of forgiveness (names off the top of my head).

Each town would also have a quest-status tied to it, which the guards will check. The status ranges from 1-20 for each town. When a guard uses the scroll of judgment with you, and you do not move for a number of seconds (to prevent abuse), your status increases by 5. An lstate prevents you from being scrolled again until a while has passed, so you can't stack it up.

When the guard examines you, he'll calculate random(19) + status. If the number is greater than 20, then he will not allow you to enter. This means that a status of 10 has a 50% chance of not letting you in. If you aren't allowed in, another lstate prevents you from trying until a while has passed, so you don't keep trying till you enter.

If you REALLY want to enter, you should be able to bribe a guard. If this is the case, then the status increases by 1, and you pay an amount proportional to your status, and he'll let you in.

A player guard may (if you successfully enter the town and are caught) use the scroll again with you, increasing your number. So a person who assaulted once and was warned has a 25% chance of being blocked, but a person who entered and was caught doing somethign illegal again, has more of a chance of not entering.

If no increases are made after a while (24 logged in hours?), the status decreases by 1.

The scroll of forgiveness resets your amount to 0. If you REALLY want to get back in, bribe a REAL town guard

*exhale*

Discuss.

Sundo Raca · Post by **Sundo Raca** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:41 pm

Why should the town get special gm made bonuses while the banned people dont?

If your going to invent this then invent grappling hooks for climbing over difficult terrain too.

pharse · Post by **pharse** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:46 pm

Sundo Raca wrote:Why should the town get special gm made bonuses while the banned people dont?

Becuase banned people (can) abuse the fact that PC's aren't 24/7 online, towns can't.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:50 pm

Sundo Raca wrote:Why should the town get special gm made bonuses while the banned people dont?

Because building a gatehouse needs a crapton of resources. If you don't want to get banned with that bonus in this manner, don't get caught. Since 'banning' you in that manner needs you to be perfectally still. But if you DO get caught, beaten up ('arrested') and whatnot, then you lost against the town guards. Period. So you don't hop back in when 2 of them aren't online so you can beat up the guard who killed you last time.

Note: If you go in, assault and hop out quickly without getting killed, you won't get banned

So assassins still have a use. In fact, more of a use now.

Sundo Raca · Post by **Sundo Raca** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:58 pm

Ok. On second thoughts i actually like the idea (

) but there are some things id like to be able to add.

1. Why only have this for the town? Any built up area should have the option for implementing something like this (yes even bandits.) and it would make being a member of a group/guild more significant.

2. Add a 'fool the guards' option. This would basically involve having your character (if refused entry) attempt to bluff his/her way in. Success would depend on say.. intelligence and perception, and the act of attempting a bluff can only be done once a day (say the guards remember you for a day ). The probability of succeeding would generally be very low, meaning the guardhouse still basically fulfills its purpose.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:19 pm

1. Any built up area with a defined 'gatehouse' should have this.

ie -> Any town/area which only has ONE entrance (or a few defined ones)

Zzyathis' gatehouse blocking the only way in counts
Silverbrand's gates count
If vanima builds a gatehouse near the dock, then it'll count

You get the idea.

Regarding 2:

That's why there's a %age chance, its 'fool the guards' in effect

So if you're caught once, 25% chance of being stopped.

If you have been caught 4 times, then there's NO WAY that a guard is not going to recognise you.

The RP base behind this is simply that each time you're caught, they can update the 'wanted' posters. So yeah, if you assaulted someone once, got caught, got banned and left, then you have a 75% chance of fooling the guards.

Sundo Raca · Post by **Sundo Raca** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:21 pm

Well thats all well and good, but it takes away creativity slightly. However overall its not a bad idea imo.

AlexRose · Post by **AlexRose** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:42 pm

Same problems as last time.

Disguises reducing chances of getting caught, mages can teleport, should you get the opportunity to fight your way in against npcs, and if so how can you prevent them from attacking other people, should intelligence play a role in your chances of being caught, etc. etc.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:46 pm

Code: Select all

??????
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Disguises reducing chances of getting caught

No

mages can teleport,

Nope, not through a locked door

should you get the opportunity to fight your way in against npcs, and if so how can you prevent them from attacking other people

No

should intelligence play a role in your chances of being caught, etc. etc.

Player intelligence only

AlexRose · Post by **AlexRose** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:57 pm

So in other words, if someone's banned, no matter how well they can rp there's no way back into town. Even if they'd never have an intent to do a pking spree and they rp a disguise and keep on the low down, it's down to the 25% blind luck, which increases exponentially.

And you think town guards won't abuse this? If they're able to choose the chance of someone getting back in time, as you insinuated with your "assaulted someone, got caught, banned and left", which only the players would be able to recognise, not the engine, then they could just choose 75% chance of failure every time.

Oh and by the way; The south west gatehuse has no wall, you could teleport over the water. The east gatehouse has a window on the wall next to it. There's loads of ways for mages to get into Bane. And plus, who's more likely to pk? Someone who's been banned, or someone who feels they've unfairly been banned and have got their mage friend to push them over the lake bit to sneak them into town? If people want to go on a pking spree, they'll find a way.

Plus, I think nowadays people don't even do that anymore? Maybe a while ago but I've not seen ctrl clicking in town for months.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:01 pm

AlexRose wrote:So in other words, if someone's banned, no matter how well they can rp there's no way back into town. Even if they'd never have an intent to do a pking spree and they rp a disguise and keep on the low down, it's down to the 25% blind luck, which increases exponentially.

If you wait a while it'll be reduced. If you ask a human guard nicely to forgive you, he'll remove that from you. The idea is to stop 'problem' people from walking into town. Seriously, if you did something bad enough that you're banned from town, then just stay out of town.

If they're able to choose the chance of someone getting back in time, as you insinuated with your "assaulted someone, got caught, banned and left"

Alex, do me a favour and actually READ the proposal?

Oh and by the way; The south west gatehuse has no wall, you could teleport over the water. The east gatehouse has a window on the wall next to it. There's loads of ways for mages to get into Bane. And plus, who's more likely to pk? Someone who's been banned, or someone who feels they've unfairly been banned and have got their mage friend to push them over the lake bit to sneak them into town? If people want to go on a pking spree, they'll find a way.

If TB has holes like that in it, its tb's problem. If they want to prevent banned mages from getting in, then they just have to hole that up. Its not my fault, nor a weakness of the system. Also if you portal 'eliza's shop' and you push your friend in, then that's another way.

Plus, I think nowadays people don't even do that anymore? Maybe a while ago but I've not seen ctrl clicking in town for months.

You haven't seen IG for months either

AlexRose · Post by **AlexRose** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:06 pm

Giving someone responsibility doesn't mean they can't abuse it.

And I've never disappeared off the character database. Plus, you know when people have done a spree because everyone bitches on general, off topic, rpg and guild. Obviously if noone's complaining it can't be that big of a problem and need this much work put in to fix.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:11 pm

AlexRose wrote:Giving someone responsibility doesn't mean they can't abuse it.

Giving someone responsibility to obey the guard's rules and stay out of town, doesn't mean they can't abuse it. The worst things that can happen is

I) The guards ban random AFK-ing people for no reason at all

II) The guards run around with the scrolls outside of town, find out where a banned person is, and increase the 'dose' one more time.

I don't see any other abuse that can happen.

Both of those can easily be reported to the GM (if a message is given that you're banned).

orgis · Post by **orgis** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:18 pm

the gate up in the orc cave work really sept for the lanage thign which means any non-orc perosn cannae git in the gates

would there be ways to script banned folk intae the towngate guards script for the matter of time they be banned? just an idea

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:21 pm

orgis wrote:would there be ways to script banned folk intae the towngate guards script for the matter of time they be banned? just an idea

*thinks*

It IS possible mechanically, but I can't see how you can realise it interface-wise without it being too complex.

What I mean is, how will the guard define how long a person is banned for? The best way to do this is manually I think, after the week or so is up, the guard can officially unban him and everyone's happy.

Obviously you could use the counter for 'days' but I think that's overcomplicating things.

orgis · Post by **orgis** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:48 pm

hmm hit a real nasty one there me guess.. needa tinka wae a thinker tae solve this yin

Rorukh · Post by **Rorukh** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:41 pm

I like the idea behind the idea (disable banned char to get in the town), but I dislike the technical solution.

What a about some magic placed in the gatehouses that does that job? (moving though the gatehouses triggers a script which checks if the passing character is in the ban list and automatically teleports him to hellbriar).

Anything else should be organized IG.
I personally would like, that guards are placed at the gates, who check the passing people, ask for their reasons if they are no citizens and collect fees, if the person who wants to enter is not a citizen or is not a human ...

In times where the guard has only a few members, one could think to permanently close some gates (e.g. west and north gate) and place one or two guards at the east gate. If no guard is IG, the gate could be locked, which would make the earlier proposed magic in the gate useless.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:14 pm

Umm, the 'guards' are NPCs by the way, in case you got confused.

The magic at the gates would work in the same well, the NPCs just make it a bit more realistic IMHO

Thief: I wish to pass
Guard: I'm afraid I can not allow you to. Unless you want to give me a little 'donation'
Thief: Donation?
Guard: Yes umm, 5 silvers should do I *winks*
--
Innocent: I wish to pass
Guard: Very well sir, be on your way *teleports*

Avalyon el'Hattarr · Post by **Avalyon el'Hattarr** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:20 pm

Well, actually, in the middle ages, a wanded criminal seen by the guards, would be taken to the dungeon while the headsman sharpens his axe. So I say that it should be a difference between a Wanted person and just a Banned one.

Rorukh · Post by **Rorukh** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:07 pm

Hadrian_Abela wrote:Umm, the 'guards' are NPCs by the way, in case you got confused.

Understood your posting.

I personally do not need that realism and that much blabla. Automatically teleport the banned characters to the northmark and the wanted ones to the dragon (good insertion, Avalyon).

BTW, I intentionally meant PO played guards. My proposal would give the townguard a reason for their existence and a good outcome from the fees.

Kranek · Post by **Kranek** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:11 pm

To the Nordmark? Keep your trash in your City! Or just teleport them to Vanima

Salathe · Post by **Salathe** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:19 pm

No way to overrun npc guards with force? Even if guards are around 24/7, they arent unstoppable.

Kranek · Post by **Kranek** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:25 pm

Just pronounce it OOC.
So the GMs can disable the NPCs and the guards can be there...if you want a stealth mission...just tall the GMs...and suddenly the NPC is...drunken *g*

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:38 pm

Salathe wrote:No way to overrun npc guards with force? Even if guards are around 24/7, they arent unstoppable.

If you got banned in that manner, it implied that the town guard beat you at least once.

If we start allowing people to beat up the NPCs to get in, the MOST DANGEROUS banned people will still be able to get in, and that would be stupid.

Salathe · Post by **Salathe** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:33 am

well firstly, just because your banned doesnt AT ALL mean that you've been beaten in anyway. In most cases, it means you've beaten some guards.

And well.. yea.. the most dangerous criminal are "the most dangerous". This system will hinder them for sure, but i dont think it should stop them 100%

There should be a way to force your way in... Lyrenzia used to force so much shit on the player base and it was complete BS how it was carried out. With things like this, it'll seem pretty similar

You can have the town pay for different level skilled guards (mage archer warrior). Some very strong, some moderate, and there is no way at all to tell how strong they are. And each guard hired can be assigned to a certain gate. So some gates can have more than one guard. When a guard is attacked an alarm sounds throughout the town that a criminal is trying to break in at XY gate. This would notify all guards currently in town, or any characters that wish to help.

Juliana D'cheyne · Post by **Juliana D'cheyne** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:40 am

The game after all is about RP... I don't think another script needs to be written to engine-enhance the RP. If a player is banned and the people in town really don't want to have anything to do with the RP of "stealing" "robbing" etc. that can be taken care of ig by jail/tyeing them to a tree pushing down the well etc. ... even oocly (I am not interested in this RP) IMO in a way not to isolate a "bad/shady" char from others to RP with. Like other posts written...you discuss banning and engine enforcement, you also then need to discuss ways engine enforced also to get around it.

Fianna Heneghan · Post by **Fianna Heneghan** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:31 am

I like the possibility of NPC guards keeping people out, but I still vote for some randomization. I think the NPC guards should not be infallible. IMO the best way to prevent abuse is to give every character some chance to be mistaken as a criminal and not allowed into town.

Also, would the guards accept bribes other than money? :wink

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:31 am

Salathe wrote:well firstly, just because your banned doesnt AT ALL mean that you've been beaten in anyway. In most cases, it means you've beaten some guards.

Read my proposal well.

To be banned you need to stay in the same place while a guard (who also stays in the same place) uses an object with you - and that's only for a 25% chance.

I don't see how else a criminal on the run is going to stay in the same place while a guard does that on him.

That is the 'fighting ability' just that. If of course you are incredibly powerful and beat the crap out of all the town guards, you'll never be banned.

The SAME CONDITIONS FOR PUTTING SOMEONE IN JAIL ARE THE SAME AS THE CONDITIONS FOR BANNING SOMEONE FROM TOWN.

Just most of us wouldn't like being stuck in a jail.
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" IMO the best way to prevent abuse is to give every character some chance to be mistaken as a criminal and not allowed into town. "

The problem with that is, lack of appearance.

"Hmm, you look suspiciously like that lizard who is banned from town"
*fairy flutters wings*

If engine-supported apperances happen in the next 1000 years, then maybe