Distance Weapons

Basal · Post by **Basal** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:05 am

I haven't seen anyone using distance weapons, and after testing them out I know why. They simply don't work. The attack speed for all distance weapons is dead slow and the damage isn't enough to account for the fact that you are dead once your enemy approaches you because you can't parry very well when using distance weapons. You are literally dead because of the delay that freezes you in a spot when you start/stop targeting an opponent.

My suggestions for improving the bad state of distance weapons in the game currently are simple and not hard to program. The improvement of distance weapons will add variety to the ingame roleplay because fighting style is a large part of character personalities and backgrounds. Of course, a useable distance weapons system will make fighting in the game alot more interesting too.

Suggestions:

-Increase the damage of distance weapons such that an enemy of a distance weapons fighter with the same amount of dodge skill as the distance weapons fighter has distance weapons skill will be at half-life after reaching the distance weapons fighter from the furthest range of the distance weapon
-the enemy of the distance weapons fighter should have more or less than half-life depending on the ratio of dodge skill to distance weapons skill (ex. 2x more dodge than distance weapons = 2x more life)
-parry chance should be halved for moving enemies
-parry should be disabled against certain weapons, for which it is not reasonable for parry to work against (ex. arrows, bolts, throwing stars) unless the parry is obtained by use of a shield, in which case it is shield blocking and not parrying
-poison arrows, poison throwing stars, poison bolts, poison javelins, etc
-make dual wielding of distance weapons useable by having dual distance weapons work like dual slashing weapons (rapid double hit for smaller items like throwing stars and slower double hit for weapons like throwing axes)

Thank you for reading. If you have an idea for saving distance weapons you are welcome to post here.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:28 am

Actually I remember distance weapons being not-so-bad as before. You could actually kill a pig without needing 25 arrows.

Perhaps you're statted badly ?

Basal · Post by **Basal** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:10 am

No, my test character had distance fighter's stats of course.

It's not even worth using distance weapons in its only useable form right now to kill things like pigs where you have no chance to die because attacks from distance weapons are relatively so much weaker and to add to that cost lots of work and money to use each time in spent ammunition.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:58 pm

Are we talking about slings or bows?

Slings are rather useless damage wise. The last time I used a bow it was quite good actually.

Ivar Kraftimarm · Post by **Ivar Kraftimarm** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:31 pm

think about the advantage to fight in distance. if the damage is to strong, the close combat fighters have no chance.

in my opinion the damage is allright.
(i use the crossbow.)

Juliana D'cheyne · Post by **Juliana D'cheyne** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:36 pm

Ivar Kraftimarm wrote:think about the advantage to fight in distance. if the damage is to strong, the close combat fighters have no chance.

in my opinion the damage is allright.
(i use the crossbow.)

I would be curious what you can kill with a crossbow and how many bolts it takes. I haven't tried distance weapons lately but in the past they were impossible to kill much of anything with. Can't the close combat fighters though move close to the one holding the bow/crossbolt and strike them quickly...anyone ever tested between a fighter and distance weapon, that would be interesting!

Ivar Kraftimarm · Post by **Ivar Kraftimarm** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:41 pm

it's usefull to have a close combat fighter in front of you, else you can forgot to fight against the reds. the long range combat is very important for big battles. it's not important for single fights.

Thanseus Valerian · Post by **Thanseus Valerian** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:45 pm

So try to make the most of that situation and shoot on the enemy until he reaches you and then change to your close combat weapon.

Post by **Jupiter** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:16 pm

Thanseus Valerian wrote:So try to make the most of that situation and shoot on the enemy until he reaches you and then change to your close combat weapon.

That's uselesse.
Then you have to drag the arrwos away, then the bow and then you have to drag the dagger/sword/wahtever in your hand.
It takes toooo much time

Basal · Post by **Basal** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:45 pm

Additional suggestion:

-Fix the game so that you can shoot from higher levels like castle parapets
-range, damage, and accuracy should be doubled for shooting from a height

Post by **Nitram** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:18 am

Basal wrote:Additional suggestion:

-Fix the game so that you can shoot from higher levels like castle parapets
-range, damage, and accuracy should be doubled for shooting from a height

Great... and what is the proposal part at this? The first is clear since ages, the second is plain overkill.

Nitram

HeXiS · Post by **HeXiS** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:18 am

realistically.. your acuracy would go down shooting from up higher.. yyu're farther away and angles effect that stuff.... now i do think that using a smaller bow should increase your speed .. like using larger bows increased power and range... for example i use the elven compound bow to hunt.. or for shooting at things i dont wanna get close to. i would use a bow and a riders bow. or even magic bow for firing fast vollies.. as for cross bows.. any one know if it's even possible to have one made?? if so who would make it?

i'd like to see some other types of spears aswell you know the kind you can stab some one from a distance.. like the halberd can chop from distance..

Sundo Raca · Post by **Sundo Raca** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:36 am

Imo longbows should do more damage than any other weapon ig. It would be true to life.

Tanistian_Kanea · Post by **Tanistian_Kanea** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:18 am

agreed, an English longbow from the 1500's would have 100 lbs draw and could pierce 1/4 inch steel. also, Mongolian composite riding bows had similar draw and was a short bow, it was made form bone and wood. of course both draw weights could exceed 100 lbs. also arrows would often stay in causing amounts of internal bleeding so that even if you did live the fight you would die soon after. (thus the barbs) a archer should be able to kill a deer with 1 shot from the edge of the screen if he got a critical hit (ie, heart, head, lung). closer range should also mean more accuracy. (100 yards = tough, 75 yards, lil easier and less missing, 50 yards, pretty easy shot, 25 yards, easy shot, 10 yards, can't miss (any decent archer should be able to hit a nickel from 10 yards). a skilled archer in the 1500's using an english longbow could strike a man 400 yards away. and yes i agree you shouldn't be able to parry arrows with swords, and shields you block things. i think a better solution is a block and a parry skill. however since this would mean more skill just let arrows past swords more easily. and yes parrying should be less effective for a moving target.

forgot to mention, mongolian composite riding bows where recurve.

Juliana D'cheyne · Post by **Juliana D'cheyne** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:35 am

Sundo Raca wrote:Imo longbows should do more damage than any other weapon ig. It would be true to life.

I never thought the game should be "realistic" after all I don't think there were transporters and Illa is medieval fantasy however, I think the damage done with bow/arrow should be a lot stronger then it is. Unless you have an uber fighter, it takes forever to train skills. For a sword, you need parry, tactics, slashing, dodge. Most training in distance weapons would train just that...distance, possibly tactics. Dodge, parry, slashing would probably not be high which means they would get ghosted a lot quicker then other fighters with anything next to them. Their only advantage is distance. It would take an average of 9-10 tile for something to close that distance to an archer, which means a fair amount of damage needs to be done before that time.

Increase the damage of distance weapons, parry should be disabled against certain weapons, for which it is not reasonable for parry to work against (ex. arrows, bolts, throwing stars)

I think both of these are good idea but wouldn't want to see any changes with swords.... the best way to kill a mage monster is to run close to them and attack quickly in most cases. This can also be done with archers I would think ...though would be an interesting experiment to try

Another thought: typical archers will have higher perception then fighters of swords only and I don't think it would be quite "fair" for an arrow to come out of nowhere to hit so make the optimum hit for arrows possibly 8 tile or less but if archery was stronger, the archer could do some damage on the 2-3 arrows they are able to shoot before the target is next to them.

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:12 am

Balancing of distance weapons is in work. Do not exspect any results anytime soon, though.

Please do not overcomplicate things. Distance weapons are treated like every other weapons in the system, just that they have a bigger range and use up ammo. Also, hit probability depends on e.g. distance. If you start to implement many more exceptions and special stuff, nothing gets better but just more complicated.

Sundo Raca · Post by **Sundo Raca** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:54 pm

The best way to use distance weapons ig is to take notes from real life. In other words, distance weapons are most effective in conjunction with close combat troops, or when in large numbers, allowing them to use hit and run techniques.

During my 'tribe' storyline, which i based largely of the mongols, i really wanted an archery kind of culture, but its so hard to become useful with the distance skill that we gave up after a day or so.