Flowery English

[Misjbar]

Are you assuming that in the middle ages, a whole subset of people used a completely differant language then the people who actually ran the country, and that the grammer and syntax of said language was more modern for these uneducated, poor, dirty farmers, then the rich and powerfull?

I'd dare not say completely different, but yes, it would have been different. Remember the times when EVERYONE of royalty(well, almost) in Europe used French as their preferred language?

[The Returner]

What I am saying is, the definative version of language would be dicatated by the educated.

serfs would not have the education or languistic talent to create a modern language, they were not allowed, and more often then not, if you were to say differant, they'd probably chop your head off.

The debate in question is between "flowery english" which I will now refer to in its proper term as "middle english" and "modern english"

Middle english was used from the late 1060's to around the renaissance. It is a proper language, like any other language. People in this time did not speak in modern english (in fact, most serfs in this period probably spoke old english, and havent even upgraded to middle english). They did not act culturally anywhere near the level of sophistication that we act today.

As far as its impact on roleplaying, I try to use middle english in most situations, unless of course it would confuse the pants off of other players. For this reason I tend to avoid roleplaying with several people in illarion.

I switched to using middle english for almost all rp reasons in other games (OpenRPG Dungeons and Dragons, P&P Dungeons and Dragons, and Forum RPG's) and I've had a much more visceral experience with these so called hardcore roleplayers then I ever did using modern english in Illarion.

I would rather have middle english in an illarion promotional screenshot intended to bring those players here, then modern english which is now to me, the equivalent of dressing up in armor with a plastic sword and walking down any old modern city street.

Bring some atmosphere to this game, jesus.

[Valione]

I've had a much more visceral experience with these so called hardcore roleplayers than I ever did using modern english in Illarion.

I would rather have middle english in an illarion promotional screenshot intended to bring those players here, than modern english ...

Fixed.

TR is right. It is annoying 'trying' to roleplay with a bunch of 'plastic sword' unimaginative pwner n00bz.

[pharse]

Fixed.

Why fixing? That's probably Middle English.


Anyway, everybody is free to RP the way one wants.
But, I'd like to remind that the vast majority of players use modern English, aswell the whole background history and stuff.

I, as an English as third language player, will continue to RP in modern English. And to be honest, considering that this game has actually German roots and most Germans (or any other non-English-native!! this is an international game) aren't able to RP in that Middle English, I think it is arrogant to avoid RP with those persons.

[Kevin Lightdot]

Pharse gets a cookie.

[The Returner]

Fixed.

Why fixing? That's probably Middle English.

Did I ever say I could speak any language perfectly? Am I some kind of english teacher suddenly because I prefer to roleplay in middle english? I don't understand why this is so important on an internet forum.

Anyway, everybody is free to RP the way one wants.

And anyone else is free to not RP with someone else.

But, I'd like to remind that the vast majority of players use modern English, aswell the whole background history and stuff.

Sure, but mostly because it is much easier to translate german into modern english then go through millions of definations in a middle english dictionary.

I, as an English as third language player, will continue to RP in modern English. And to be honest, considering that this game has actually German roots and most Germans (or any other non-English-native!! this is an international game)

English is my second language, I have no problems learning middle english, and I've learned enough conversational german here at illarion to get by.

aren't able to RP in that Middle English, I think it is arrogant to avoid RP with those persons.

Has anyone here ever met me? seriously? I'm as arrogant as they come.

[pharse]

Congratulations, you are elitist.

I think I have nothing to add to this topic any more.

[AlexRose]

Um.. actually, Turny, they did speak a different language. The only words that English has retained from the peasant language are words like "oats" that only the farmers had to use and the aristocrats rarely needed to.

[The Returner]

Um.. actually, Turny, they did speak a different language. The only words that English has retained from the peasant language are words like "oats" that only the farmers had to use and the aristocrats rarely needed to.

Mister English master, I'm surprised that you would think words like "oats" would create an entirely differant language. I did not come to the realization that "oats" would require changes in syntax, grammer, sentence structure, pronounciation, ect.

[AlexRose]

Um.. actually, Turny, they did speak a different language. The only words that English has retained from the peasant language are words like "oats" that only the farmers had to use and the aristocrats rarely needed to.

Mister English master, I'm surprised that you would think words like "oats" would create an entirely differant language. I did not come to the realization that "oats" would require changes in syntax, grammer, sentence structure, pronounciation, ect.

.. Oats was a word from the peasant language that's been adopted into English. They did NOT speak the same language as the aristocrats, and Shakespeare's texts were NOT understood as easily as you think. People were just as confused about the language as we are now. In fact, Shakespeare INVENTED many of his words (e.g. Assassin).

When the French conquered the language changed vastly but the peasants retained anglo saxon etc. until eventually what we know as modern English was adopted all through. You don't think people really went round going "Oh, greetings, good morrow, noble sir!" do you? It was more like stereotypical farmers with a FEW olde englishe terms. People didn't go round talking in poetry, try reading other literature from the time of Shakespeare and I think you might be in for a shock.

[The Returner]

.. Oats was a word from the peasant language that's been adopted into English. They did NOT speak the same language as the aristocrats, and Shakespeare's texts were NOT understood as easily as you think. People were just as confused about the language as we are now. In fact, Shakespeare INVENTED many of his words (e.g. Assassin).

Which in turn was adapted into modern english. Therefore using shakespearian terms is still not debunked by this argument.

When the French conquered the language changed vastly but the peasants retained anglo saxon etc. until eventually what we know as modern English was adopted all through. You don't think people really went round going "Oh, greetings, good morrow, noble sir!" do you? It was more like stereotypical farmers with a FEW olde englishe terms. People didn't go round talking in poetry, try reading other literature from the time of Shakespeare and I think you might be in for a shock.

(in fact, most serfs in this period probably spoke old english, and havent even upgraded to middle english). They did not act culturally anywhere near the level of sophistication that we act today.

Anything else?

[AlexRose]

So you honestly believe that everyone spoke Shakespearian English in those times?

That's actually hilarious.

[Damien]

We have a fantasy RP game here, and those are (and should be, imho) by far more dominated by shakespearan words than historical languague.

[The Returner]

Some late night reading for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_english

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Britain

Please also see:

http://www.luminarium.org/medlit/
http://www-sul.stanford.edu/depts/ssrg/ ... aneng.html

as well as:

http://www8.georgetown.edu/departments/ ... oe/oe.html


Thank you.

[Kevin Lightdot]

Germans do not use Shakespearian, ban them!

[The Returner]

Germans do not use Shakespearian, ban them!

German also has no developed as much from the medievil period to the modern industrialization period.

But if you would insist on all Germans speaking in middle high german or something nuts, I suggest you take it up with them.


By the way, I wish people would stop mistaking middle english for all of these strange terms...flower...shakespearian. Shakespearian is based on middle english, he was just creative enough to create new words, which were then adapted into modern language.

[Harald Hradradr]

German also has no developed as much from the medievil period to the modern industrialization period.

Bwuahahahahahahhahahahaa!

Owê, sol aber mir iemer mê
geliuthen dur die naht
noch wizer danne ein snê
ir lîp vil wol geslaht?
der troue diu ougen mîn:
ich wânde, ez solde sîn
des liehten mânen schîn,
dô zaget ez.

"Owê, sol aber er immer mê
den morgen hie betagen?
als uns diu naht engê,
daz wir niht durfen klagen:
'owê, nu ist ez tac',
als er mir klage pflac
do'r jungest bi mir lac.
dô taget ez."

Owê, si kuste âne zal
in deme slâfe mich.
dô vielen hin ze tal
ir trêne nidersisch,
iedoch getrôste ich sî,
daz si ir weinen lîd
und mich al ummevî.
dô taget ez. (Heinrich von Morungen; Das Tagelied)

So...Mister Returner. The above poem is written in ONE of the friggin many german medieval languages. Actually the 'German' we use today emerged after Konrad Duden. If you really think there is not all that many differences, go and figure what the poem actually means.

[Damien]

Actually, "Mittelhochdeutsch" is the title given to what was spoken around some medieval periods. It differs from actual german quite alot.

[Harald Hradradr]

Mittelhochdeutsch only is one dialect. There is many more depending on the area. Actually 'Germany' is a very 'new' Country. Way younger than France or England.

[The Returner]

*shrugs*

Thank you both for pointing that out. I don't know much german history. That sounds like something interesting to study

[Damien]

Yes, definitely. Germany was lots of small countries, and earlier, it was inhabited by different tribes. The saxons for example were non-christian until 800 after Christian time, they had to pay tax to the king but still were free tribes, with their own culture, religion and habits. They were conquered, slaughtered and force-christianized by Karl the Great though, who was called "saxon-slaughterer" because of his extraordinary brutality ( by conquering, he gave the land inhabited by the tribes to other nobles, and ordered to kill people who did not convert to christianity. His brutal ways were criticised by the christian church too, it was mentioned by some priest in a letter to him that the religion should spread by the word, not the sword (or likewise) ).

Well. There is also a story that some saxon tribe was christianized by the leaders losing a quite serious bet against a captured missionary, who managed to take a glowing coal into his hand ( getting hurt by that ) without screaming, they were impressed by the strength of his belief and converted.

Uhm - well that's one thing that fascinated me lots back in school, possibly mainly because some big part of me is saxon *g*

But, that's fairly off-the-topic. Even today, there are different words for some things in different german dialects.

[Lrmy]

Here is a quote I found.

You can start a lot of arguments with this one. Because English evolves continually (and always has) it's hard to find neat dividing lines, and clear differences. New words enter the language, words change meaning, old words disappear (and sometimes re-emerge), so that there's a flow.

Returner, if you are so concerned about middle English that you will only play with people who can understand it, and shoot it back at you, perhaps think of elaborating with us about the styling of middle English. I'm nearly positive you would enjoy role playing with some other individuals that play Illarion. It is a shame they cannot hope to amount to your awesome standards of language.

You so elite then us.

[Faladron]

I'd love to see gamelogs of people actually roleplaying in "flowery" english, especially those defending it, namely The Returner and Estralis Seborian.

I'd furthermore wish to ask if the both of them kept their "flowery" english up in-game at ALL times and thoroughly through every roleplay they ever made.

If they supply me with evidence for that I promise to consider to adapt my english-roleplay aswell to join the shake-a-spear for proper english movement.

If you fail to deliver that evidence it is proof that you suggest others to do something that you can't fulfil yourself, or as the german proverb goes "Wasser predigen und Wein trinken", and thus you shouldn't be given any more attention with this, none of my attention anyway.

[LifeWonder]

I love it when I erupt useless debates.

[Cliu Beothach]

My petunias grow forth into my garden bed of roses near the begonias that turn into pussywillows.


Is that flowery enough?

[Retlak]

Children, stop crying about something that does not affect anyone's life to any importance here.

[Fooser]

pussywillows.

[Vern Kron]

I think its everyone's choice. Those who rp it as in the older language can deal with those that speak in regular english. On the other hand, we could demand everyone speak the same way and lose players one way or anouther.

Though, the 'ither' words are rather tricky to remember which is which. Hither, thither, ect...
Basically, everyone follow the age old rules that we have had. Respect one anouther and their roleplay. Even if it is ye olde.

[Juniper Onyx]

I have a lot of education....too much, and I enjoy a good 'yarn' and can confuse even you with my knowledge of 'abstract', 'elite' english (See some papers Perrilyn Appalachia Primrose Asmurf wrote), but even I would have to suggest not to use "Flowery English" or "Mittlehochdeutsch".

Why?

On one level:
Most players want excitement, adventure and achievement. Crafting and questing for monsters are usually the first priority. Role-play is harder to learn to do right and I believe most are still learning to RP. I know I am still! If most players RP one way, why confuse new players with this "elite" RP?

On another:
This is an international Game. It has been proven that the English Language is the hardest one to learn as a second language due to inconsistencies in Grammer, spelling and meanings. English (Both American and British) has "Borrowed" from so many languages, it is like a "Patchwork Quilt" and therefore harder to learn. I speak German as a second Language, and difficult as it is, I really feel proud of the Germans who try to speak English, and I will often 'simplify' my language if they have trouble understanding. Sometimes, I will even confirm what they said by asking for confirmation of what they said. It's stupid and disrespectful to confuse them with "Olde English" which only the English 'Peasants' used anyway. The Nobility spoke French, and Americans dumped it with the Tea. Hehe!!

Modern English can be translated online and is "consistent" enough these days to be easier to learn. Avoid obvious words like "OK", "Computer"...haha..."Co-educational" (Hint to Mark ) and other obvious "Modern" words. Most people do this already, and I see nothing wrong with keeping this system. "Flowery English" look pretty, but is a real "Bitch" to translate and honestly not necessary for the RP of Illarion.

If you want "Flowery" Language....you gotta go where everyone speaks the same language, and has the education to actually enjoy and interract with it. I think you'll have more "Visceral" experiences if everyone understands and interracts with the RP, because one person who doesn't, just ruins the whole thing. (Like a Noob in the Fluffy Sheep )

My 2 cents/pennies/centum/pfennig/franc/peso/whatever/etc.

[Vern Kron]

Also, does KoG count as l33t? Cause... it should.