Tools Degrading too fast or just sickles?

[Estralis Seborian]

Please stays constructive. Nobody says the wear of tools is perfectly balanced. Before, tools did not wear off at all even though they were supposed to. Now they do and players think they wear off too fast in general. Since I believe the script has no simple speed meter but features a complex calculation, incoperating the quality, durability, the attributes and skills of the user, balancing may take a while. So, best thing to do is to provide useful informations like Lennier asked for. "This sucks" does not help, you know?

Human nature usually works like this: If you do something voluntarily to improve something and the changes you are fond of are rejected immediatly, you either say "smile, do your stuff alone" or "smile you have no idea". Our developers are volunteers and play this game themselves (except martin). They don't have the goal to make it worse but better. To reach this goal, consider it a common goal and no "players vs. developers" or even "players vs. staff"-battle.

[Ivar Kraftimarm]

so, hab jetzt mal einen test beim bergbau gemacht.
werkzeug: sehr gute, leicht abgenutzte spitzhacke
ertrag: 1419 rohstoffe (34,5 kohlefelsen)

das klingt für mich erst mal ok. allerdings habe ich mir auch ein paar fragen gestellt. zum beispiel wenn ich hacke und keinen rohstoff finde (als anfänger zb.) habe ich dann trotzdem abnutzung? das könnte für anfänger schnell frustrierend wirken.

und die nächste frage war für mich, wenn die spitzhacke von der qualität schlechter ist, dann bricht sie auch schneller? dann würden weniger rohstoffe gesammelt. in dem fall würde ich den ertrag bis zum brechen doch lieber etwas erhöhen. dann wäre es zwar eine lange zeit bis zum brechen des sehr guten werkzeuges, aber es wäre nicht so frustrierend wenn man einmal an nicht so gute werkzeuge rankommt.

[Tanistian_Kanea]

Here's the problem -

A strong character with less dex will be less of a crafter than one with high dex. Has always been that way, and doesn't need any more... attributes play an important part in it already.

Strenght is useful to crafters, if you try mining you'll realise how heavy things are. Strenght helps you carry more items.

Also, realism-wise (as I said above) strenght is needed for some things as well.

So I'm sorry, but this will just create a bunch of weird builds to combat it, like crafters who can hardly carry their clothes. Please try to find another way to differentiate it. Either way, a dedicated crafter will be more skilled than a crafter/fighter (obviously) so I don't THINK its needed at all.

ADDED:

Someone (forgot who) had said that punishing players is a bad idea, but rewarding others is a good one. Whoever said that was very right. In my opinion a better idea would be:

A) Remove the 'dex + strenght' thing.
B) Make degrading tools give a minor penalty to quality, and better quality tools giving better quality than usual, no break.
-> That way, if i want to use money to get better tools just to make better items for a while, I can
-> If i want to keep my old tools, I'm not punished for it... at least I can still craft.

ADDED [2]:

Who makes tools?

Carpenters and Blacksmiths.

The most well-paid craft? Blacksmithing, and Carpentry.

So what this will do is -

Make Blacksmiths much richer
Make Carpenters slightly richer

Make other crafts poorer.

Not the kind of 'economy' we want I would think.

excellent post.

there should at least be "blunt" scissors which can be used by smith at grinding wheel to make "scissors"

my post. this i would also say is good.

if you took the system you had and simply changed the number by multiples or divisions of 8 you would be good. 90 *8 = 720. 150 *8 = 1200. 1200 + 720 /2 = 960. which is right about where people (so far) seem to think it should be.

another of mine which players seem to like. this one would also be a better solution then making npc's sell better tools because all that does is make more sales for them. this should help encourage player to player trade but at the same time if someone needs or wants to the can still craft with NPC bought items. (say if you can only get on when there is an average of 9 or so players. it would suck trying to get a good pc smith)

Considering that 90 wool only produces 30 bolts of cloth (which I think is 10 pairs of pants - correct me if I'm wrong) and my mom's sewing scissors have lasted seven years (and she's an avid quilter) I think this is a bit unrealistic.

proof that update is not only not fun but also unrealistic.

Quote:
i think the average item should last about 1000 actions with an average character. a bad last 500. and a good one last 2000. where an EXCELENT one last 3000.


That is a good guideline.

another of my ideas with another person saying it's good.

so to condence all these ideas in a nice simple form for easy reference.

Idea 1: add blunt scissors (and other items) that can be repaired instead of the magic act disapearing scissors we have now.
Idea 2: just add a minumum to the degrading process. thinking each quality step has nearly 10 durability steps add a certain amount number of actions between for each step. excelent gets 300, good 200, average 100, and bad only 50.
Idea 3: cut down to remove the dex + strength thing. strength in particular should be removed as for some crafts low strength would actually make it easier to mess up the craft. for example smithing. because strength is needed to pound the metal flat someone who is weak would have to try vrard it the metal hard enough thus loosing control. also their hammers are ment to take one hell of a beating.
Idea 4: make the quality of the tool more iportant to the quality of the items produced.
Idea 5: mulitply your current numbers so the end result is a higher number of actions. much higher. this could also be used in conjunction with Idea 2. I have sugested that the multiplications be *8 or /8 but if you take them to *4 and /4 then the minumum is idea 2 can also be halfed. 150 for excelent. 100 for good, 50 for average and 25 for bad. this combination would create a tool that last for at least x long but could last y long.

so estralis without actualy seeing the formula used i am unable to help beyond this. 5 ideas people seem to like. which. when thrown together would make a really good tool system. if you are going to say this would take alot of work to implement well yes it would. but it would also be done right and it would be an awesome system. i always liked the theory that if your going to do something do it well the first time.

[Vern Kron]

Easy now everyone..

Before this update I had tools break. I suggest instead of a 'chance' to break, the items deteriorate down to the lowest point, and then either can not be used and need repairs or just get eaten by the server, instead of using a tool until it hits a 'average' area, and then break.

You could also add effects to how the tools make things, such as..

Good tools = good work
Ok tools = no effect
Bad tools = bad work

If it deteriotes like that, and that effect was in place then it would add in a few other things such as, selling bad equipment to certain people and good equipment to others.

Slowing the deterioration rate on the 'collection' tools and 'refining' tools may be a good idea as well, such as crucibles and pincers, gem cutting tools, saw, hatchet, pick axe, sickles, scissors, ect.

Beyond that, the needle, hammer, fine smithing hammer, basically the 'finishing' tool should degrade faster than the gathering tools, but slower than what they do now.

[Lennier]

das klingt für mich erst mal ok. allerdings habe ich mir auch ein paar fragen gestellt. zum beispiel wenn ich hacke und keinen rohstoff finde (als anfänger zb.) habe ich dann trotzdem abnutzung?

Ja. Die Abnutzung wird bei jeder Aktion der Spitzhacke berechnet. Egal ob mit Erfolg oder ohne.

You could also add effects to how the tools make things, such as..

Good tools = good work
Ok tools = no effect
Bad tools = bad work

Ready implemented inside the crafting system since months/years. Quality of prodcuts depend on attributes, skills, quality of ressources and quality of tools. And much more is implemented why people should use good quality of players instead of low quality. Like successrate or learning effects.

Slowing the deterioration rate on the 'collection' tools and 'refining' tools may be a good idea as well, such as crucibles and pincers, gem cutting tools, saw, hatchet, pick axe, sickles, scissors, ect.

Beyond that, the needle, hammer, fine smithing hammer, basically the 'finishing' tool should degrade faster than the gathering tools, but slower than what they do now.

Ready planned inside the breaking tool function.

But before i expand it again it is more important, that it works in general. For that i spent my last 10 hours. I found strange bugs, but it seems noone know why they happen. They should not happen..

So the breaking function is lowered now to a minimized version. Also read here

Tell me about your new experiences.

[Gro'bul]

At least you have a chance to wear them down and repair them, there was a time in the past where tools would just have a random chance to break during use. I had to have someone supply me with hammers and shovels while I mined because they broke so often, take 4-5 sickles with me, even carried an extra scythe while farming.

[Tanistian_Kanea]

i have to say whatever ya did it seems a lot better.

[Faladron]

Gibt es eine Erklärung warum Werkzeug sich selbst repariert?

Soeben getestet:

Sichel... sehr gut, nagelneu wird verwendet...

wird sehr gut neu... sehr gut leicht abgenutzt... etc. etc. nach sehr gut klapprig (glaube ich)
springt die Sichel dann automatisch auf gut nagelneu um.

Das ist zwar schön weil dadurch die Sichel extrem lange haltet, aber es macht jede Form von Spielerinteraktion um sein Werkzeug zu reparieren überflüssig, weil es sich sowieso "von selbst" repariert (Qualität wird gesenkt, Haltbarkeit wird wieder erhöht).

Was genau rechtfertigt diese Maßnahme im Gegensatz zu Waffen und Rüstungen bei denen die Sachen ja verschwinden wenn die Haltbarkeit zu stark abnimmt?

[Estralis Seborian]

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 087#531087

As it seems, this is intended. However, I must agree it is counter-intuitive that a used sickle becomes a brand new one out of sudden. The concept to have durability (how long does the item last?) and quality (how good is the item?) is a good one for weapons and such, why abandon it for tools?

[Miklorius]

Yeah, durability and quality should be independent. Maybe the actual concept is a bug? From Lennier's posting, I did not find hint, that the durability is reset when reaching a lower quality.

Maybe it was intended that the quality goes down, when durability has reached the lowest status?

[Lennier]

Will try to change it in one of the next versions. Currently it is really a minimal function until the bugs are solved.

[HeXiS]

let's all do as i do... and just accept that things are changing... i simply gave up crafting... :) i made a few tools that i was able too for if i ever change my mind but other than that.. i dont craft any more.. i did a bit of smithing earlier.. any way... im a fighter now.. i accept that thing are and will change.. if the game ever looses all it fun.. then i'll moan and complain.. or just leave.. and if there is no guild for crafters.. by all means if you think it's a good idea... you start it... dont bother arguing.. no one will win that kind of argument..

by the way if you start a guild.. im soo in...

[Kevin Lightdot]

There where plenty of crafting guilds but they all went inactive.

[Achae Eanstray]

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 087#531087

As it seems, this is intended. However, I must agree it is counter-intuitive that a used sickle becomes a brand new one out of sudden. The concept to have durability (how long does the item last?) and quality (how good is the item?) is a good one for weapons and such, why abandon it for tools?

I agree, and have no problem with the weapon concept if similarly linked to tools including the rate of decay.