Tools Degrading too fast or just sickles?

[Miklorius]

When does a tool exactly break? With increasing breaking chance when reaching a lower durability (=< used)?

PS: Just for completeness, I quote Lennier's initial posting about the changes:

The function to break tools with gaining ressources and producing of products is reworked, so that i works now....

What should be known?

A tool of good quality will have a lower chance to break as a tool with bad quality.

A tool with good durability need more time to change the quality as a tool with bad durability.

Chars with a bad ratio of str and dex have a higher chance to break their tools during the change of quality as chars which have a good ratio.

Str leads to a bad ratio.
Dex will help to prevent breaking tools.

Before a tool change the quality of good to used (whatever) you will get a notice. If this message appears you should think about to let repair the tool. That also would lower the risk to break it.

[Achae Eanstray]

The problem with instant-complaining about a new feature is that developers tend to ignore it due to a lack of reason. I am pretty sure our devs will listen to reports and suggestions how to adjust the wear rate. But do it with reason and give details instead of "turn off that crap" or "STFU"

Estralis, I believe the whole point of the thread is that tools break too easily, not that they break. Enough chars have posted examples of this and requested it be adjusted so they would NOT break so quickly.

One good or very good tool should last more then 200-300 actions before it breaks completely. Throwing out a number at random, I would say for each category, i.e. excellent, very good, good, scratched, highly scratched, a tool should be used for approximately 1000 actions before dropping to a lower category gradually declining until corroded, then break.

(This number also has the advantage of allowing the char to actually find someone to repair and still use the tool for a little, unlike the system as it is now.)


This number should ALSO be adjusted upward (1500-2000) for those professions...i.e. tailoring, herb gathering etc. that have NO opportunity to earn coin yet in the game system... realizing this is being worked on and when there is coin to earn, the tool rate breakage can be adjusted to "normal" rate again.

If you are including all tools, then the static "town" tools should be included also, i.e. spinning wheel, work table etc. requiring towns need to purchase more.

Achae being the game standard for crafter char not having adjusted str, dex etc when made but only using the recommended one by the game would be a good example of what a new char would run into for tool breakage...most I assume ALSO picking the game standard if they want a crafter char.

My main concern is new players and I hope there is some statistics to see how many start out as crafters but quit, or change their profession except for Smiths and now Cooks, not planning to craft anymore myself, at least not as a tailor.

[Tanistian_Kanea]

I don't have a crafter

Then shut up Alex as you have no idea what you are talking about. I do have a crafter and it works fine as I have described it.

Again: shut up.

no, for once don't shut up alex. even though he doesn't have a crafter he is actually able to see the problem and understand it far better then you pharse. his points are dead on correct.
and like achae said. noone is complaining that they do break just that they break to fast. i think the average item should last about 1000 actions with an average character. a bad last 500. and a good one last 2000. where an EXCELENT one last 3000. to improve tailoring simply make it so clothes wear out. because other then fighting as far as i know they don't get worn out. for carpentry make ranged fighting a little bit better. right now not very many people fight with ranged weapons, i would guess because of the cost. more rangers = more bows and arrows which = more work for carpenters. next if you make it so leather armor gives a bonus to ranged weaponry or at least have metal give ranged attacks a negative penalty then you would have what rangers we have buying more leather armor. which would bring more work back to tailor who desperately need some sales. glass work needs to be given more then one useful item "bottles" first. we can't get them selling more things when they only sell one thing.
so there Estralis. thought out suggestion to fix the problem and not STFU.

[Dariya]

*coughs*
and now back to constructive posting without ranting, eh?!

[Jupiter]

Tools break.
That is good, really good.

But they break way to fast. I can tell you that from sickles.

i think the average item should last about 1000 actions with an average character. a bad last 500. and a good one last 2000. where an EXCELENT one last 3000.

That is a good guideline.

My two cents.

[pharse]

Tanistian_Kanea:

read my whole posts before being that ignorant.

tweaking = good. But do not lay all the blame on others if you can do something yourself to get over your char's current situation.

[Vern Kron]

Pharse, please stop your flaming. About half your posts have been just that in this thread.

On topic: A crafting group would be a great idea, but everyone can fulfill their needs alone. No one needs a teacher. Many people who play crafters have a crafting past.

Furthermore, while sickles appear to have trouble, I have been told that crucibles and pincers are breaking somewhat often too, sometimes after 150 ingots. I will look into that, but Lennier there may be a small, teeny, problem in your testing. Did you test with an old character, or a new one? An old one that is skilled and has near yellow or yellow skills probably won't have their items break because their items probably won't deteriorate as much. Also, if your character is 'optimized' stat wise to be a crafter, beyond that of a regular crafter, it will change the results.
Just things to look at.

[Jupiter]

YOur "find a guild"stuff has NOTHING to do what we are talking about. The tools break too fast, that's the point. Would joing a guild change this? No, the tools would still break to fast, you would just get easier to a new tool.
And don't say now that is the point, that you get easier to new tools. Because our point is not that we can't get easy enough to new tools.

[Lennier]

Okay, i am corious.

First time i did something of importance in use of scripts. I am nearly shocked about the responce at this place here. But at least i know now what other developers feel.

I ordered you to tell me about your own tests. In fact PO Achae Eanstray was the only one. So it is the only person i can take serious with her mean.

I think the average item should last about 1000 actions with an average character. a bad last 500. and a good one last 2000. where an EXCELENT one last 3000.That are good goals in general. In matter of moderate-high quality it ready should be real.

Noone said that a tool has to break in change of quality of excellent to the next lower level. It is only a risk. That risk depands on your own char and raises with a lower quality.

High dex means that tools have a maybe longer lifespan. That is a fact.

Str is a bad attribute in my view. High Str mean, that the char uses too more power at his tools. More power at a tool means it could break easier.

Now i changes it a little bit, so that the break of the tool should not be so often, so that the chance to survive a decreasing quality raises.

The effect of Str is lowered now. The effect of Dex is lifted up.

NPC-Traders are also changed now. Their tools have a higher durability as before.

Higher durability then good-very good which is what was the durability of those three sickles bought and used for 600 sibinac?

Quality is somthing like excellent, good, bad etc. Durability is new, used or old. NPCs still have not best quality of course. But durability was lifted up.


Apropos. The skill is irrelevant here. When i said, that it depends on skills?

[Tanistian_Kanea]

I ordered you to tell me about your own tests. In fact PO Achae Eanstray was the only one. So it is the only person i can take serious with her mean.

WHAT?!!

are you blind. what is this:

average, used scikle only gets me 90 actions.

what more do you want?!?

[Achae Eanstray]

Okay, i am corious.

First time i did something of importance in use of scripts. I am nearly shocked about the responce at this place here. But at least i know now what other developers feel.

Your map work has been wonderful


Now i changes it a little bit, so that the break of the tool should not be so often, so that the chance to survive a decreasing quality raises.

The effect of Str is lowered now. The effect of Dex is lifted up.

Thank you Lennier, I am sure others will test it out.

requoted for clarity from Lennier:

I need the name of your char, the tool with his quality/duability to the begin and how long you was able to use it.

Also requested was str and dex of char.

[Ambrosine]

In our defense: we were shocked by the abrupt (and a bit drastic) change in the game's behavior.
& The idea's a good one, it just needed adjustment.

Test: Average, used scissors
Sheared 90 wool & spun 3
Considering that 90 wool only produces 30 bolts of cloth (which I think is 10 pairs of pants - correct me if I'm wrong) and my mom's sewing scissors have lasted seven years (and she's an avid quilter) I think this is a bit unrealistic.

EDIT: Also, are the tools supposed to "break" or disappear? 'Cause the scissors just disappeared with no chance to repair them.

And yes, you're awesome with the maps... What ever happened to that dev feel good thread? Where we all posted what we liked about the game?

[Tanistian_Kanea]

quite good scraped - quite good highly scraped after 5 trees/roughly 100-150 actions. Thats only one condition level though. My char is very good at lumberjacking, might effect that. Thats roughly 600 actions till breaking. Repairing restores typically 2-3 condition or 300-450 actions. Could repair 2-3 times.

My wooden shovel broke...I got a new one good slightly scraped...and after around 5 flour it broke again

yesterday I used 3 pincers during melting iron. too much in my opinion. About 100 bars or so, max. 150.

I have the same problem.
2 sickles in 2 Ig days Confused .

Is the point of Illarion to make it more fun or more real?

Is the point of Illarion to make it more fun or more real?

It's nice when both points can be accommodated but doesn't the former take precedence?

@ambrosine: it's actually 30 pants but still. to make 30 pants from start to finish using average used scissors you use about 3-4 pairs.

@lennier: most of what you do is incredible. ig and update wise. but this is just excessive. above are various quotes either with the tests you asked for BEFORE you asked for them and other good points. like it should be fun over realistic. but right now it's not fun and not realistic. if you took the system you had and simply changed the number by multiples or divisions of 8 you would be good. 90 *8 = 720. 150 *8 = 1200. 1200 + 720 /2 = 960. which is right about where people (so far) seem to think it should be.

[Ivar Kraftimarm]

cool down please, we need only a little bit of balancing

good work lennier. don't be curious about the reaction of the players. i think it's a normal reaction

[Lennier]

A single test with an average, used sickle is okay. More tests would be better. That you only got 90 actions is in range of normal. It would be good to have your char-name, so that i can watch out your attributes from DB (no need to write here). Maybe it was bad luck. Maybe it is your char, who is no talented crafter.

And maybe i have to change NPCs-traders again. More and more durability.

[Tanistian_Kanea]

or just change the rate at which they go away. that is what we are complaining about. we know where to get better durability and the idea is to get these from PC's not NPC's. so if you make the NPC's better then it defeats the entire purpose of your update in the first place because you still don't get players trading with each other.

edit:

That you only got 90 actions is in range of normal.

what we are saying is the average should be 10 times this. making better durability items does not fix this problem. because and average used sickle will still break at the same rate and that is what we want changed.

Edit2: most recent test just finished. average used scissors 105 actions before disappearing. same character. same skill. should have lasted approx 8 times longer....

[Achae Eanstray]

Char name: Achae Eanstray
str/dex: game recommended for crafter char
tool: sickle
durability: good/slightly scraped (mirror check also showed slightly scraped)


number of clicks and condition:

first 9 clicks tool stays good/slightly scraped
after 9 clicks tool now good used for the next 6 clicks
6 more clicks (total of 15)back to good scraped
18 clicks: good highly scraped
27 clicks good old again
36 clicks good rusty
45 clicks good corroded
51 clicks..message to repair soon
6 more clicks and tool broke......... a total of 57 clicks for slightly scraped to total break.... also a total of 300 herb but that is with fair skill... I am sure a new char would get a lot less.


(as a brief aside, I got anywhere from 3-6 messages of "You do not find anything" in a row yet a lot of times I am still getting the herb....this usually happens on the third click to the same plant if that helps)

[Tanistian_Kanea]

good new scissors. disappear after 150 actions (rounded)this is still to crazy fast. fun comes before realistic and this just pisses me off. there should at least be "blunt" scissors which can be used by smith at grinding wheel to make "scissors"

[Ambrosine]

Me likes that idea. Or at least "broken scissors" you can repair, with a chance that the scissors may be lost during repair.

[Vern Kron]

You also can't repair stirring rod.

[Tanistian_Kanea]

you can't with any tool when it goes "dull" or whatever and you should be able to. still to fast of degrade. not sure if you changed it yet.

[Llama]

*reads the thread*

Strenght being a "BAD" thing is by far the strangest implementation of attributes I have ever seen.

If I'm a strong person, it doesn't mean I smash every single thing. Dexterity is how 'dainty' you are, but you can still be 'dainty' and strong.

Also I fail to understand how a weak person can hit metal into shape or drive nails into wood... or chop down trees, or dig into rock, or shape stone.... If this was an attempt to stop 'fighter/crafter' characters, its a very bad one. Crafters need strenght to carry their stuff as well.

Also this is amazingly unrealistic, and not-fun especially for lesser-used crafts, and especially noting the large amount of actions you need.

Those are my two cents...

[Lennier]

you can't with any tool when it goes "dull" or whatever and you should be able to. still to fast of degrade. not sure if you changed it yet.

If i change something i would inform you. Change is in prepare. But it seems to be buggy until now.

@Hadrian_Abela: The idea behind a parameter with positive effects by dex and negative by str is to make a difference between fighters and crafters. The effect is ready reduced but still part of it. A only strong char without any dex has his disatvantages in crafting.

[Llama]

Here's the problem -

A strong character with less dex will be less of a crafter than one with high dex. Has always been that way, and doesn't need any more... attributes play an important part in it already.

Strenght is useful to crafters, if you try mining you'll realise how heavy things are. Strenght helps you carry more items.

Also, realism-wise (as I said above) strenght is needed for some things as well.

So I'm sorry, but this will just create a bunch of weird builds to combat it, like crafters who can hardly carry their clothes. Please try to find another way to differentiate it. Either way, a dedicated crafter will be more skilled than a crafter/fighter (obviously) so I don't THINK its needed at all.

ADDED:

Someone (forgot who) had said that punishing players is a bad idea, but rewarding others is a good one. Whoever said that was very right. In my opinion a better idea would be:

A) Remove the 'dex + strenght' thing.
B) Make degrading tools give a minor penalty to quality, and better quality tools giving better quality than usual, no break.
-> That way, if i want to use money to get better tools just to make better items for a while, I can
-> If i want to keep my old tools, I'm not punished for it... at least I can still craft.

ADDED [2]:

Who makes tools?

Carpenters and Blacksmiths.

The most well-paid craft? Blacksmithing, and Carpentry.

So what this will do is -

Make Blacksmiths much richer
Make Carpenters slightly richer

Make other crafts poorer.

Not the kind of 'economy' we want I would think.

[Tanistian_Kanea]

for things not needed i don't really think this entire update was needed. there are more important things like the druids system. increasing revenue in tailoring, glasswork and and carpentry (to balance against smith. this update unbalances it even more) then add in skill that have been thought of in the home page but have yet to be implemented and everything else on the homepage that has yet to be implemented. i know this is on the homepage but unless it gets some major tweaks FAST the game was 10 times better without it.

[Achae Eanstray]

Here's the problem -

A strong character with less dex will be less of a crafter than one with high dex. Has always been that way, and doesn't need any more... attributes play an important part in it already.

Strenght is useful to crafters, if you try mining you'll realise how heavy things are. Strenght helps you carry more items.

Also, realism-wise (as I said above) strenght is needed for some things as well.

So I'm sorry, but this will just create a bunch of weird builds to combat it, like crafters who can hardly carry their clothes. Please try to find another way to differentiate it. Either way, a dedicated crafter will be more skilled than a crafter/fighter (obviously) so I don't THINK its needed at all.

ADDED:

Someone (forgot who) had said that punishing players is a bad idea, but rewarding others is a good one. Whoever said that was very right. In my opinion a better idea would be:

A) Remove the 'dex + strenght' thing.
B) Make degrading tools give a minor penalty to quality, and better quality tools giving better quality than usual, no break.
-> That way, if i want to use money to get better tools just to make better items for a while, I can
-> If i want to keep my old tools, I'm not punished for it... at least I can still craft.
ADDED [2]:

Who makes tools?

Carpenters and Blacksmiths.

The most well-paid craft? Blacksmithing, and Carpentry.

So what this will do is -

Make Blacksmiths much richer
Make Carpenters slightly richer

Make other crafts poorer.

Not the kind of 'economy' we want I would think.

This is the best idea yet. It would also encompass those chars that do professions ig that don't get any coin, and not just reward the Blacksmiths and Carpenters that can earn at least a little coin.

[Tanistian_Kanea]

Here's the problem -

A strong character with less dex will be less of a crafter than one with high dex. Has always been that way, and doesn't need any more... attributes play an important part in it already.

Strenght is useful to crafters, if you try mining you'll realise how heavy things are. Strenght helps you carry more items.

Also, realism-wise (as I said above) strenght is needed for some things as well.

So I'm sorry, but this will just create a bunch of weird builds to combat it, like crafters who can hardly carry their clothes. Please try to find another way to differentiate it. Either way, a dedicated crafter will be more skilled than a crafter/fighter (obviously) so I don't THINK its needed at all.

ADDED:

Someone (forgot who) had said that punishing players is a bad idea, but rewarding others is a good one. Whoever said that was very right. In my opinion a better idea would be:

A) Remove the 'dex + strenght' thing.
B) Make degrading tools give a minor penalty to quality, and better quality tools giving better quality than usual, no break.
-> That way, if i want to use money to get better tools just to make better items for a while, I can
-> If i want to keep my old tools, I'm not punished for it... at least I can still craft.
ADDED [2]:

Who makes tools?

Carpenters and Blacksmiths.

The most well-paid craft? Blacksmithing, and Carpentry.

So what this will do is -

Make Blacksmiths much richer
Make Carpenters slightly richer

Make other crafts poorer.

Not the kind of 'economy' we want I would think.

This is the best idea yet. It would also encompass those chars that do professions ig that don't get any coin, and not just reward the Blacksmiths and Carpenters that can earn at least a little coin.

please can we get something like this. this one right now really isn't that good.

[Weilanderus]

Nachdem hier die Diskussion auf englisch läuft und ich maximal die Hälfte versteh.Bitte ich um verschieben wenns völlig falsch liegt-
Ich habe aktzeptiert das meine tiegelzange nach rund 150 schmelzungen
bricht. aber muss dann für gute 5 minuten die esse weiterlaufen und als nicht benutzbar deklariert werden? "An dieser Esse arbeitet bereits jemand"
gruß agnir

[Vilarion]

Concerning the "discussion" above: Life is not fair, Illarion economy is not fair, that is the way it is, deal with it.

[Tanistian_Kanea]

ah but vilarion. as lennier has said this update is supposed to "help" the economy. when in fact it is doing almost the exact opposite of "helping" and it is that point we are trying to get across. as for the relation between life not being fair which makes it alright for illarion not to be fair is a complete tube of shit as this is a game and is not real life. it has been stated many times by GM's that illarion is meant to be fun before realistic. though it seems GM's hold by this really good theory to keep the game fun until their backs are against the wall and they have no other defense because they F ed up. this update sucks and i would say lennier is fighting to change it because "he worked hard on it and he thinks it is really good". well boo woo he is seemingly the only one that thinks so. i have yet to see anyone say they actually like this idea (with the possible exception of olive who said it would make her a lot of money because she is a SMITH but even she thinks they degrade to fast.) We are almost on our third page of complaints or suggestions for a new system or how to tweak this one and yet not one of the gm's is listening because "we are being mean to lennier" about it. noooo... we where nice and polite and the beginning. wondering if it was a bug asking someone to fix it. but as we where told this is the way it was meant to be and ignored about what so many are saying (this refers to lennier asking for something that was ALREADY posted) we started getting angry because this whole thing sucks.