New Currencies

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 3:10 am

Greetings!

I would like to propose some new currencies that could be implemented in illarion. Why am I doing this? I feel that certain items in illarion right now are not worth many gold coins or even one gold coin. For example, a fish is sellable to Eliza for one gold coin. One fish that is not even cooked is not worth that much in my opinion. Anyways here are some currencies I would like to propose. Worth the most to the least worth (descending):
Gold ingots
Silver ingots
Gold coins
Silver coins
Bronze coins
Copper coins
Please post your thoughts on this in a mature, polite manner. Helpful criticisms only. Thank you.
-Elaralith

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 3:20 am

ok, well first off if your going to have all these things, why not create some rough picture or graphic to help people understand what you mean. cant expect mods to do it all, money would not be hard, this is a good idea but, i dont think we need to go as low as copper, basically useless.

Niniane · Post by **Niniane** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 3:49 am

This has already been brought up and discussed in the recent past. Possibly being worked on, although I don't know for sure. As I remember it the conversion rates were the details being hammered out the last time it was mentioned.

Niniane · Post by **Niniane** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 4:16 am

Serpardum wrote:It would be, in order of value: copper, silver then gold.

We are not sure what the exchange rate would be. It was thought about 250, but then things get very expensive.

250 copper coins = 1 copper ingot
250 copper ingots = 1 silver coin
250 silver coins = 1 silver ingot
250 silver ingots = 1 gold coin
250 gold coins = 1 gold ingot

That would make 1 gold ingot worth 976,562,500,000 copper coins. (250 ^ 5). Exorbant. It would probably something more realistic like:

100 copper coins = 1 copper ingot
10 copper ingots = 1 silver coin
100 silver coins = 1 silver ingot
10 silver ingots = 1 gold coin
100 gold coins = 1 gold ingot

That would make 1 gold ingot worth 100,000,000 copper coins. A little exorbant, but 1 gold coin would be worth 1 million copper coins. Maybe we would even do 10 so 1 gold ingot would be worth 100,000 copper coins.

We really don't know yet. We've been hashing it out.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 5:09 am

@Niniane I realized that, but the thing is that a actual thread has not been made int he Proposal Board for the explicit purpose of discussing this matter. That is why I started this thread, as well this proposal has some touches of my own

. Thanks for adding the information that Separdum posted though;it really adds a lot of insight to this proposal.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 6:22 am

erm, why do we need copper, in business in real life do we really deal in pennies, NO, so why not just add silver coins and gold ingot?
i dont find the particular need for more than two types of currency, besides copper is not a prized metal.

Adano Eles · Post by **Adano Eles** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 9:07 am

Because of the difference in price of certain goods. Grain is worth 1 gold piece while a plate armor costs only 200. Such an armor is incredible expensive and the relation of it being worth only 200 crops is too low. So the only way is to increase the price of plate armors to several silver, or making grain worth less. The current money system is not good enough to set the price relations for all goods correctly, so it is needed to introduce at least one more type of money. However, I still think that six different coins is simply too much.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 10:21 pm

Hmmm...I do think now that 6 currencies is a bit too much. Bronze coins can be taken out I think. So what we have now is in descending order of value:
Gold ingots
Silver ingots
Gold coins
Silver coins
Copper coins
@Grobul There are many items that are not worth even one gold coin or even one silver coin. For example, one apple. A fruit that should be sellable, but please who would buy it for one gold coin or evne one silver coin?

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 10:43 pm

Actually, I was thinking more of:
Gold Ingot
Gold Coin
Silver ingot
Silver coin
Copper Ingot
Copper Coin

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 1:59 am

@Separdum, That doesn't make much sense though for a small round piece of gold to be worth more than a big chunk of silver. Even though gold is rarer than silver a big chunk of silver is valued usually more than a small piece even of gold. I thought about a "copper ingot" as well too, but it came to my mind that a copper ingot is kind of ridiculous as copper seems a bit too cheap to be made into an ingot...

Kringin · Post by **Kringin** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 2:27 am

Ack! too many curriencies.

Lets Just have 2 Currencies Gold and Silver by serpardum's way..Much simpler and easier to Maintain in my opinion.

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 9:06 am

Elaralith wrote:@Separdum, That doesn't make much sense though for a small round piece of gold to be worth more than a big chunk of silver. Even though gold is rarer than silver a big chunk of silver is valued usually more than a small piece even of gold. I thought about a "copper ingot" as well too, but it came to my mind that a copper ingot is kind of ridiculous as copper seems a bit too cheap to be made into an ingot...

The last time I checked current gold and silver prices in the world today gold was around $350 an ounce, silver was around $42 an ounce.

Those are probably way off by now, but can be used for general guildlines. Shows us that gold is roughly 9 times more expensive than silver. Easy to use a factor of 10.

So... Let's assume that all our coins are one ounce. Gold coins would be a bit smaller since gold is heavier than silver, etc.. but for argument's sake.

If a silver bar was 10 ounces of silver, it would be worth one gold coin.

So in this case a silver bar is less than a gold coin.

Well, we have the freedom of making our pricing factors to any scale we want.

More realistically, a bar of silver is probably a troy pound, or 12 ounces or something like that. But we could make gold worth 13 times more than silver, so a sivler bar would still be worth less than a gold coin.

It all depends on how big these bars are, which depends on the value we give them.

If a gold bar is worth 10 gold coins, it weights 10 ounces. if it's 12 gold coins (a troy pound) it weights a pound. But 12 is such a hard number to work with.

We are free in our finageling to make make a silver bar worth more or less than a gold coin. We have not yet defined how much silver is actually in a silver bar.

Aragon · Post by **Aragon** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 9:17 am

I think, the exchange rate should only made by coins. So we have three different curriencies (gold coins, silver coins, copper coins).

The ingots have only the use to reduce the amount of coins in your belt, like it is yet with gold coins and silver ingots (for example 250 coins = one ingot). It is easier to use in this way.

Maybe:
25 copper coins = 1 silver coin
25 silver coins = 1 gold coin
625 copper coins = 1 gold coin

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 9:55 am

Well, if we come up with a decent exchange rate, coins will be the only thing really used for currency for buying/selling.

Ingots will be used mainly for hording wealth, perhaps required to make things in the future, perhaps needed for quests, etc... but they will continue to be commodities, not goods.

The difference between a commodity and a good is, a commodity sells for the same price as it buys for. Goods, on the other hand, you sell for less than you buy for.

Adano Eles · Post by **Adano Eles** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 10:11 am

With the current way of mass production of goods there could be the problem that the lower currencies won't be really used. So maybe the exchange rates shouldn't be too low. Maybe in the line of

100 copper coins= 1 silver coin
100 silver coins = 1 gold coin
1000 coins of any kind= 1 respective ingot

Ingots could also be made very heavy and large so you can't carry around too many of them.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 8:04 pm

err, serpedum i think silver is hevier than gold, i dunno its stronger i know this, but i think a huge chunk of silver should be worth more than a gold coin,im thinking more like a scale kind of something

10silver coin=1gold coin

10gold coins=1silver ingot

10 silver ingot=1 gold ingot

100silver coins=1silver ingot

100gold coins=1 gold ingot

1000silver coins=1gold ingot

Kragmar · Post by **Kragmar** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 10:12 pm

Well, this involves currencies, but not what everyone here is talking about. Why not, instead of "gold" and "silver" coins, give them names like "crowns" or "Louis." Or maybe name them after some Illarion character who doesn't play anymore. I think every game in the world uses "gold coins." Lets just be a little different.
Kragmar

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Wed Feb 26, 2003 4:48 am

@Separdum I don't think so...Yes true it would depend on the size and weight of the silver ingot for it to be worth more than a singke gold coin, but the very name "ingot" brings to mind a big chunk of metal in a rectangular shape. Such a huge and heavy piece of metal even of silver would be more expensive than a gold coin because though it is valuable there isn't mich of it. Coin brings to mind a thin round waferlike chip. As well, if the silver was not pure as you say then the gold would have to be impure as well making everything equal again, and the fact that the silver is impure a worthless fact in relation to its value to gold.

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 4:16 am

A few things.

First, gold is heavier than silver. Although it is lighter than copper.

Second, an ingot can be any size. I have bought before a silver ingot, although it was only 1 ounce. The shape of it was a flat rectangle.

The difference between an ingot and a coin is a coin is used used for excahnge while an ingot is used for the metal.

Here is the dictionary definition of ingot:
1. A mass of metal, such as a bar or block, that is cast in a standard shape for convenient storage or shipment.
2. A casting mold for metal.

They can be of any size.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 5:19 am

Again I see your point Separdum but you must realize that the word "ingot" brings to most people's mind a big rectangular shaped piece of precious metal. They can be any size yes, but that is what the word "ingot" brings to mind and rightfully so as that is how it is most often represented. Even the graphic for a silver ingot in illarion right now is a big and thick shaped piece of silver.
And actually you are only partially right. In the medieval times coins were used as a medium of exchange, but ingots were as well. Ingots were used for bigger sales like paying off the ransom for a king, buying land etc. etc.

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 5:58 am

There is still no final decision on the exchange rates.

I really don't know how the final conversion between ingots and coins is going to be.

It does make sense, however, to make the same rates between coins work between ingots.

That is, if 100 silver coins is worth 1 gold coin, then 100 silver ingots should be worth 1 gold ingot.

100 seems to be a good rate.

100 copper = 1 silver.
100 silver = 1 gold coin
100 gold coins

Then 100 copper ingots = 1 silver ingot
100 silver ingots = 1 gold ingot.

Then 250 has been suggested, sicne that's what we're doing now for coins/ingots.

Hmm...

250 copper = 1 silver.
250 silver = 1 gold

25 copper = 1 copper ingot
25 silver = 1 silver ingot
25 gold = 1 gold ingot

That makes how many silver ingots in a gold ingot?
Lets see, 25 gold, times 250 silver each is 6250 silver. Divided by 25 is 250.

So, yes, 250 silver = 1 gold. 250 silver ingots = 1 gold ingot.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 6:06 am

That system is quite simple. From a perspective of seeing ingots as totally different from coins and not a medium of exchange that would work...I though see the relationship between ingots and coins slightly differently. An implementation of more currencies though as soon as possible would be the best thing though because as they say "the best test is to try it out". Changes could be made after implementation based on the experience of players. Faults could be identified that way too and corrected.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 6:10 am

One thing to keep in mind though.... nobody's strong enough to carry 250 ingots in their bag right now, as far as I know.

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 8:38 am

Well, yes, but you would not neccessarily exchange 1 gold ingot for 250 silver ingots, but for 25 gold.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 7:49 pm

hey i made some coin,ingot,and money pile models check them out at http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/illarionarmory/money.html i only made gold silver and bronze. the page shouldnt take to long to load hopefully.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 9:13 pm

@Gro'bul, the coins are quite well done, but first some suggestions from me.
1. You should separate each of the piles of different coinage into different picture frames.
2. Make the pictures on a pink background for easy implementing into illarion.
3. Take away the "polished" shine from the coins! The glaring sparkle hurts my eyes, and it makes the coins look a bit childish like something from a cartoon picture.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 12:21 am

thanks for the suggestions, i can make the silver not so shiny. the bronze coins almost arent shiny at all, hmm well ill try to make it duller i guess. Ill do.

but, whoever said they were going to use them? i dont care if they do i would be honored if they did but i guess ill do it anyways.

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 2:19 am

In all likelyhood they will most likely just take the current coins and recolor them.

There are current in the game:
gold coins
Silver Ingots
Gold Ingots

So we would only need Silver Coins, Copper Coins and Copper ingots.

Which will probably just be done by recoloring the existing ones.

Kringin · Post by **Kringin** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 2:27 am

Ehh i'm a bit confused. Correct me if you must. So 1 bronze is 1/200 of a gold?? Wow thats a lot of change

.

Why not just have it so that its:

100 bronze = 50 silver
100 silver = 1 silver ingot
so 2 bronze ingots = 1 silver ingot
so 200 bronze = 1 silver ingot
100 silver = 50 gold
100 gold = 1 gold ingot
so 200 silver = 1 gold ingot

This wont effect the money system we have now too much.

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 2:36 am

Kringin wrote:Why not just have it so that its:

100 bronze = 50 silver
100 silver = 1 silver ingot
so 2 bronze ingots = 1 silver ingot
so 200 bronze = 1 silver ingot
100 silver = 50 gold
100 gold = 1 gold ingot
so 200 silver = 1 gold ingot

Let me re-interpret your numbers:

2 copper = 1 silver
2 silver = 1 gold

100 silver = 1 silver ingot
100 gold = 1 gold ingot

Why would we have a coin that was only 1/2 as much as the one before it? That wouldnt' make much sense.

A rule of 10 might be nice too.

10 copper = 1 copper ingot.
10 copper ingots = 1 silver.
10 silver = 1 silver ingot.
10 silver ingots = 1 gold.
10 gold = 1 gold ingot.

That makes 100,000 copper pieces to a gold ingot.