Schneidern / Tailoring

[Mr. Cromwell]

If it's so easy to roleplay clothes, why is it so hard to roleplay a "set demand" of comsumer goods for your character?
---
You can set up rules for clothing, but personally I think that'd cut down and kill of the last sparks of #me's and imagination (next big idea coming up, paperdolled character features?), as the last use for #me's most people nowadays know is describing their clothes and looks and you'd cut into that with a paperdoll system severely (why #me if everyone sees I am wearing my blue generic shirt anyway?).

The fact that people can roleplay the clothes is the sole reason for why there is no real demand for clothes. I'd go as far as to assume that 60%-> of the characters don't wear anything which nearly resembles the description of the character, simply because they don't have to and because it is seen as that as completely acceptable thing.

It's about choices. You pick which one you like better:
1.) The characters will keep on wearing roleplayed clothes and the tailors will keep on earning roleplayed money. Current system. (No wide demand for tailored items, boo hiss!)
2.) The characters can start wearing real clothes, and the tailors will start earning real money. "Paperdolling" of somesort. (Demand for tailored items, yay!)
3.) Or alternatively; everyone will buy clothes at random, regardless of need. Now 'everyone' has to subside the tailors, by buying a load of stuff all the time. This system would never work unless it was somehow technically enforced. (Artificial demand/ idea detached from reality. BOO HISS!)

Don't know about you, but I think that the physical features of the character or the details of the clothes or how they are worn can be described enough for people to still have a reason to use the #me's.

Faladron wears a light blue shirt with the collar turned upwards. The sleeves of the shirt are casually rolled up to his elbows, revealing the numerous of tattoos which cover his lower arms.. For some strange reason, he wears nothing else except for the shirt.
Someone (192938182) runs away from the strange man.
Sir Dantagon Marescot raises a brow and licks over his lips: Oh, poor man.. you have no trousers.. please, come with me to our knighthood-building, you can stay for as long as you like..
Faladron runs away from the strange man.

Just an example.

I don't understand why you are upset with 'having' to buy fine clothes if you want your character to have fine clothes (and otherwise just wearing the bad ones, if you don't want to or lack the money). If you roleplay having an armor and then complain for the lack of any armor-like properities when fighting, everyone would think that you're an idiot. When you decide to roleplay a nonexistant item and then become upset as the opportunity for this is taken away, and you actually have to acquire an item which closely resembles it for your character.. I guess people are free to judge you in the same manner. Just buy a nice shirt for your character if you want him to have one. Problem solved.

As a sidenote: The only 'real' bonus I would give for clothing would be, that the better clothes you wear, the less likely you would be to catch an illness. Not entirely realistic, but somehow I dislike the "blue hat +10% fishing, red hat +5% magic.."-type of proposals. Additionally, clothes should take damage on durability when you craft/mine/lumberjack while using them, just like items lose durability while fighting. I'm not exactly sure if this is the case now.

[Mr. Cromwell]

Useful tailoring items:

Gambeson
An additional light armor, wearable on the cloak/coat slot. Basically useful for warriors.

And then, bigger bags with larger carry-capacity..

[Taeryon Silverlight]

Und Köcher für Pfeile und Bolzen

-

And quivers for arrows and bolts

[Dien]

I'm still fairly new to the game, but since I am playing a tailor char I thought I'd throw in my two cents here:

What Faladron describes only works when players are actually willing to go to that sort of trouble. Sure, it'd be nice if everyone felt like investing the effort to really roleplay what clothes you would need-- but that's simply not the case. Most of what a tailor can currently make is, essentially, USELESS ig to other characters.

My tailor Mahe made her own leather armor, as a for instance, which I was fine with from an RP basis-- it was in keeping with my character concept that she wasn't some big battle-dwarf with steel mail, but rather a more everyday sort of dwarf with just some nice light protection from hazards of the road. First thing that happened when she joined a guild? Metal armor was given her by the other characters with much shaking of heads over why she hadn't outfitted herself properly.

Could I have stuck to my roleplay concept of a leather-wearing dwarf and turned down the armor? Yes. Would it have accomplished anything other than making me a crappier fighter on guild quests? No. I like to think of myself as reasonably dedicated to RP-- all the characters I make are balanced statwise, i.e., I give them reasonable intelligence even if they're pure fighters and thus take hits to my STR and CON and so forth-- but there comes a line where practicality enters into it-- however IC it was for my dwarf to be a light-leather-armor wearing character, IC she was also NOT going to turn down brand new steel armor and superior weapons and therefore be a less valuable guild member.

How far are we supposed to take "roleplay"? There's simply not enough purists who are willing to expend money on tailored goods for the principle of the thing to keep a tailor making a profit. And those that are tend to be those who can afford it and want really high-quality items-- which a medium level tailor can't make.

Since leather armor is essentially worthless except for NPC sell value when the metal alternatives exist, that basically rules out the IG usefulness of all leather goods except bags, which remain to date the only thing my character has been asked to produce more than once. Clothes, until they do something in-game besides just satisfying a player's vanity, are also essentially worthless.

I'm not saying clothes should have to give a specific bonus to skills, necessarily, since I would view that as an artificial way to boost demand for clothes. So why do we wear clothes in the real world? Because societally we can't go around naked. If there was a way to introduce a -societal- reaction to the game, that could be very interesting-- what if an NPC merchant won't deal with a naked person? Or what if you get occasional auto-messages of "You are attracting many strange looks as you wander around town in your torn and dirty rags"?

I realize that this might be a problem to script-- I don't know how complex the scripting is. But some way the client could check your equipped inventory and generate messages based on either/both the presence and quality of equipped clothing might be really interesting, and provide an in-game, RP-based rationale for an increased tailoring demand.

*

One other suggestion I have for increasing tailoring demand that would, I think, be VERY easy to pull off is simply to require tailored goods in the building of dwellings/structures. You already require logs, nails, bricks, stones, etc,;-- good work for carpenters and miners-- what about requiring certain dyed colors of cloth to form draperies, curtains, pennants, tapestries, awnings, etc.? Or have those be items a tailor can make?

Just a suggestion.


---
Mahe Ironhall approves this post!

[Achae Eanstray]

I hope there will be no more auto messages to have to ignore ig.. but I like the idea of making tailoring goods that are useful. Greeves.. red and blue were taken away from tailoring .... I agree about the armor, however some mages may still wear leather being unable to wear steel and cast well. Leather boots, shoes, I think maybe even bags can be bought and sold by NPC's and if not are hard to find someone to make them. The Smiths need dyes and ask the tailor sometimes for them, however some dyes (like the blue needing anger berries and the red needing onions which can't be grown in the winter) are almost not worth the effort to make.

With paper dolls, the selection of clothes are such now and the graphics needed so time consuming in order to make more, it may not be worth the effort. Also I would prefer not to change my char's description to suit the variety that is available on the paper dolls until we can get more.


Slings, bags are about the only thing a tailor can make that is useful in game and these are not in great demand. Selecting more useful products that are already in game that a tailor can make would help the most IMO.

[Juniper Onyx]

I agree that Paperdolling is THE BEST thing to help taoiloring, but how about a more immediate solution.

It has been suggested before that Weather could affect the Tailoring system.

Each Game cycle (4 min. I think), the server could run a check for 'weather' appropriate clothing on your character. Armor should not count as 'appropriate'. If Yes, no effect. If No then a forced emote can be issued and a penalty put on the character unitl the next cycle, if the character resolves the problem.

If it's snowing, is your character wearing a coat, gloves and boots?
If no: Temporary -4 to Dex and Agi as your legs and hands freeze (standing by a fire has no effect, if you're naked, what's a fire going to do against blowing snow?).

If it's raining, is your character wearing robes (only thing close to rain gear) and a hat?
If no: Temporary -4 to Con and Wil as your character gets depresssed and catches a cold (That darned 'virus' for example).

Normal 'Days' and 'Nights' should have no effect. Players need some time to have fun. Just the 'Weather effects should be applied as they are random and would keep characters on their toes.

This way, at least Robes, boots, gloves and coats will be more in demand. And also negates wearing Armor in the Rain or snow, which is nonsense without a penalty anyway.

Can this be implemented?

[Rosendil]

In my optinion, the easiest way to implement the first step of paperdolling would be a "look at <character>" or "examine <character>" command.

[Nitram]

Exactly this works already on the testserver. At least serversided. The only missing part is the script that generates the text.

Nitram

[Estralis Seborian]

@Juniper Onyx: To be honest, when such things like you suggested become implemented, I won't play Illarion anymore. All I can see in that concept is punishing players for inappropiate behaviour, but no encouraging of wanted behaviour. How about you think about something positive? Like a bonus for wearing certain clothes (mage robe... hmm... what kind of bonus might be fitting?)?

Paperdolling ftw!

[Achae Eanstray]

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... ood+system

I think the numerous threads we had with the food system and the final change.....

changed some expressions in the code. Now (or as soon as it is put on the realserver) the constitution modifier works only from 0 to +2. No const-penalty any more.

....should be an indication that a negative outcome does not make players happy for the most part. I would prefer my char not to earn anything in tailoring then to have that. She still has/and continued to tailor mainly in giving things to other chars for trade though has not earned much coin from it.

[Juniper Onyx]

Well, we can go with the old saying that the "Clothes make the Man" meaning that when you wear nice clothes, you often feel better. When you wear torn clothes, you often feel down or depressed.

Be honest Ladies, don't you feel better and more self-confident when you wear a nice dress? A new pair of shoes or a purse is something to be proud of. And Men, a Tuxedo, or a business suit gives you respect and an impression of assertiveness, right?

Something positive....how about....

If it's snowing, is your character wearing a coat, gloves and boots?
If yes: Temporary +2 to Dex and Agi as your hands and feet are warmed and you easily cross through the snow and catch snowflakes with your tongue. (Snow usually slows people down without these, but no negatives, right?)

If it's raining, is your character wearing robes (only thing close to rain gear) and a hat?
If yes: Temporary +2 to Con and Wil as your character feels exhilarated with the cleansing rain and a joy for living flows through you.

Normal 'Days' and 'Nights' should have no effect. Players need some time to have fun. Just the 'Weather effects should be applied as they are random and would keep characters on their toes.

This way, at least Robes, boots, gloves and coats will be more in demand. As I stated earlier, Armors shouldn't replace good clothes.

If weather can't be used, how about something that really counts......
Other ideas:(Varies depending on difficulty of Item to make)
Mage Robes: +1 to +4 on Will (Reason: 'real' magic robes give the mage more 'self-confidence)
Priest Robes: +1 to +4 on Essence (reason: A priest creates more 'spiritual' atmosphere and respect when in 'uniform')
Gloves: +1 to +4 on Dexterity(reason: easier to craft and pick herbs without fearing for cuts or thorns)
Shoes, Boots, pants: +1 to +2 on Agility (reason: easier to walk over terrain than barefoot)
Hats: +1 to +4 on Will (reason: More 'humility' to a 'higher' power gives a feeling of protection and self-confidence-same reason Muslims and Jews wear Hats)
Dresses, Jewelry: +1 to +4 to Intelligence (reason: You feel 'smarter' and better than others when you can 'show' off your luxuries-everyone could use a boost in Int. not just mages)
Shirts: +1 to +2 to Con (Reason: You feel warmer, and protected from the elements with a shirt on)

Armor has no benefits to Attributes- they already give defense.

Can this be implemented?[/quote]

[Magdha Tiefenerz]

Es ist nett zu sehen, dass einige der Vorschläge umgesetzt wurden und die Schneider ein paar neue Gegenstände bekommen haben. Ich denke mal, dass die neuen Grafiken für Hemden und Hosen durch reine Anpassung der Farbe entstanden sind. Könnte man das nicht analog bei den Mänteln machen? Beim Kleid wäre es auch sehr nett, nur kann ich mir vorstellen, dass es da etwas schwieriger ist, da die Grafik für das Kleid aus mehreren Farben besteht.
Es es immer igendwie blöd, jemanden OOC sagen zu müssen, dass es den Gegenstand nicht in dieser oder jener gewünschten Farbe gibt, und es allenfalls ausgespielt werden kann. Mit dem neuen Feature, dass man sich die Leute ansehen kann, ist das aber auch nicht mehr so toll.

[Jupiter]

Ich denke das Umfärben von Kleidern ist auch nicht sooo schwer, aber sollte es nicht anders gehen, kannst du ja ein blaues Kelid von Pharse in rot, pink etc. umbenennen lassen (nich umfärben!). Würde nur etwas mehr kosten und eine doch recht dämliche Lösung sein