pricelist discussions

[Lrmy]

Going to the 600 copper pincers.. I for one, would give them for 20(material price) coppers to a character from mine. Something that takes no skill and only requires few materials. My smith is rather skilled and I find it absurd to sell armors for over 15 silvers. 600-800 coppers in my opinion is worth a good Silversteel (Argueably the best smithable armor). I look at it like this...

Silversteel - 50 raw materials
(About 38 Iron ingots and 12 dried leathers. Those numbers are close but maybe not 100% accurate to the real numbers)

An iron ingot is 10 coppers normally. Well...not from Faladron who tried to sell them to me for 20... . So that makes 380 coppers. Leathers, let's say cost 4 coppers. Another 48 coppers. That makes 428 copper coins to make a Silversteel. Add that to the 172-372 coppers I charge for the work fee, I'd say it's fair. Of COURSE you get those selling them for 2000-5000 coppers. This is the biggest problem in the item list.

[Magdha Tiefenerz]

Hello!

I'm against fixed prices as it takes some of the fun from the game. Fixed prices do not reflect changes on the market, which are a result of demand and supply.
But I would like to see a pricelist for reference, so that everyone knows the "normal" value of wares.

With kind regards

[Elsi]

At this point, I think the idea is for the GMs to recalibrate the NPC merchants prices to better reflect 'market' values.

The wiki price list now has room for price ranges, to better try to capture the real activity.

[Estralis Seborian]

Isn't it funny that some editors think they can estimated market prices of GM-items ? I am curious on what those prices are based...

I fear most prices are based on the fact how hard it is to craft something rather than the properties. While this is a valid first approach, in the end, properties should matter at least as much as crafting issues. And it is e.g. strange that the best helmet in this game ranges at around half the price of the 2nd best one...

[Elsi]

the idea, first go round, is to try to capture what things really *are* selling for, not to decide what they *should be* selling for... Funny how everyone keeps debating 'should be'. Things are worth exactly what the buyer and seller agree they are worth.

[Faladron]

Dont try to aim for "set-prices", rather try something like

"minimum prices", something everyone agrees upon not to go lower because it'd be unreasonable to sell at that price (for example it'd be unreasonable to sell things below the cost it'd take you to buy (at the minimum price or higher?) food needed to perform the work in the first place).

If someone tries to reach for higher prices for whatever reason then fine, but some guidelines like that shouldn't be crossed.

@the ingot guy:

5 Copper for iron ore, 5 copper for coal, 5 for the food and 5 as a revenue doesn't strike me that hard, but it's just my personal reflection (and the reflection of Faladron aswell) as currently there is no "manual labour" cast in-game because nobody bothers to be a lumberjack or miner as wages don't even pay the things you have to eat in the first place.

Besides it's usually funny to tell people off as dependant on slave labour and tell them why exactly it is that way. Also their "Wtf?" expression whenever I tell them my prices is quite funny (for both parties I assume, as I force other characters to think outside their box, am I not?)

[Elsi]

I fear most prices are based on the fact how hard it is to craft something rather than the properties. While this is a valid first approach, in the end, properties should matter at least as much as crafting issues. And it is e.g. strange that the best helmet in this game ranges at around half the price of the 2nd best one...

Strikes me as a natural result of not publishing item stats... this is not a bad thing.

[Llama]

5 Copper for iron ore, 5 copper for coal, 5 for the food and 5 as a revenue doesn't strike me that hard, but it's just my personal reflection (and the reflection of Faladron aswell) as currently there is no "manual labour" cast in-game because nobody bothers to be a lumberjack or miner as wages don't even pay the things you have to eat in the first place.

To be honest, I usually used to buy 3 for ore, 3 for coal.

Doesn't create half an exploded price

[Estralis Seborian]

OK, since this list should represent the actual prices for p2p trades, who the smile pays 1000cp for an oil lamp?! Or 2500cp for a razor blade that is an ordinary monster drop? 250cp for a strawberry cake? Or 400cp for a full leather armor?

And what is this DO NOT CHANGE IT!!!-Moep-list all about?

[Faladron]

That's the joy of a wiki.

Someone can edit all of it without being noticed.

[Mr. Cromwell]

For the price list:
I think that freely editable version which is used as a reference is bad planning. When this influences technical implementation (meaning the NPC-prices) instead of being just a purely smacc-esque reference, the staff should ensure that the price-changes suggested by players are actually backed up with reason and logic. So it would be better IMHO if it was on the board instead of the wiki, where the players could then discuss the prices and the staff could decide which is actually the 'best' idea. This would be the best way to ensure a balanced pricing instead of "piss-off-pricing" (600cp for basic tools?..) which is inclined to either lower or increase the prices artificially for the benefit of the customers or (more likely) the craftsmen.

Put it on the boards somewhere, appoint a GM to oversee the discussion (Estralis? He seems to have an interest for the economy..) and to implement the *good* price change suggestions in the proper list.

@Estralis

Read my instructions more carefully in the future, thanks

Simply because usually, I know what I am talking about. Just do what I say immediately and we'll avoid a ton of problems.

Ps. Re-Make the economy discussion group.

[maryday]

oopsie

[Faladron]

Ps. Re-Make the economy discussion group.

I am up for that too. Let's start with a first meeting Cromwell

[Korm Kormsen]

i just looked at the price list in the wiki.

one thing for sure: i will not spend more time in that list.
by the changes made one can guess, what profession has the writers main-char.
this is and will continue to be an ever-changing wishlist.

that's not worth my time.

if there is serious interest, i can implement a planning section in the northmark forum, where only admitted writers can change the list. with a thread beside for suggestions from others.

any Dev willing to head a workgroup?

korm

[Faladron]

Korm, open your eyes.

We are three already (Crommy me and you), let's get something started and others may or may not join (people will complain once a list is done either way so why not start it behind closed doors anyway? ).

We can at least work on a recommendation already, then throw that thing into discussion rather than expect 20~ people to work together anonymiously on a wiki page.

[Juniper Onyx]

@Korm---I'm with you man. I spent two hours and got a headache for my troubles and someone just botched it all to hell with inflated prices!
I thought I was conveying 2 years of experience in P2P sales and purchases, but I can see some people just want to get greedy.

@Faladron---After talking to your character about IG prices of simple Iron Ingots and Ores, I doubt we can agree on anything. My prices have always been low compared to many others, but I develop a loyal and friendly customer base. It suits me not to make tons of profit from players, because I know how hard they work to earn the few coins they can spare for my wares too. Personally, stick this discussion where the sun doesn't shine, because there will always be someone who complains about it and you can never agree when the certain "Smiths" believe there's money to be made by this. As for me, "Lassaiz Faire". Let the market continue to decide prices. Let the Dev's decide the prices set IG by NPC's.

Just my two cents.

[Faladron]

Juniper,

Do not mistake the opinion of Faladron with my, as the player's, personal oppinion about this thing.

I'd love to tell you the things I thought about regarding this topic,
then you'll tell me your arguments and someday in the future we might agree upon something inbetween if it's convincing for the both of us.

Of course the characters in-game do not mind the low prices, they don't know better, but perhaps we can talk about this once in PM or even a IM program?


-EDIT: No objections against the man playing the midget (with beard this time) -

[Korm Kormsen]

ok, faladron, cromwell, look there:

http://kormsen.ko.funpic.de/forum/viewt ... =1850#1850

if i made everything right, everybody should be able, to participate as guest in the discussion.
to get moderator-access to the list itself, one has to register and be "grouped" by me. (preferibly under the same nick as here)

the first step should be, to make a realistic list of "from-to prices" as really paid.

juniper, if faladron and cromwell don't object, you are in.

korm

[ogerawa]

And what is this DO NOT CHANGE IT!!!-Moep-list all about?

It's a list i made, based on the materials used to make an item. I placed the raw materials costs, that's used for the items that can be crafted. For rare items or expensive items, i didn't put any price at all since that would be too dependent on the buyer/seller and such price varies too greatly.

I placed the DO NOT CHANGE part, cause someone who doesn't know how to edit it, thinks that moep column is for the lowest price. Although whoever did the change, doesn't seems to understand much what they are doing. S/he changed the lowest price (from column) into a higher number instead of lower. Thus i edit-ed the list again to make it more tidy (based on whoever that "Palindrome") and where his prices belonged while keeping intact the lowest price from previous contributor.

Now that you seen the price, if you want to delete the moep column you can. I don't really mind. Or if you are too lazy, i can do it.

[Juniper Onyx]

Alright, I logged on.

I'll participate with you, Faladron and Edward only because you asked so nicely.

Let's make something realistic, cohesive and really reflects the myriad of crafts needed to produce each item.

Thanks for setting up something Korm that just anyone can't go in and edit without some real discussion first.

[Korm Kormsen]

ogerawa,

i would prefer, that you keep a copy of your numbers, that you can help with them in the second step/stage of the project.

the moment, i find somebody, who can make a table for the forum, we will create a new list here: http://kormsen.ko.funpic.de/forum/viewforum.php?f=17
the list will be protected, so that it can be guaranteed, that only consensed numbers are integrated.

first step will be, to make a list, that shows only the prices, that are really payed in player/player transactions at the moment.

second step will be, to calculate (like you allready seem to have done) to give the players an aproximation, what things are worth. and to give the devs a reference, to use for the NPC prices.

korm
.

[ogerawa]

most of the armors (smith) price were actually overpriced based on skill + materials. But then again, estralis said something regarding the best armor only for those who has money, thus the prices on armors somewhat really high (IMO at least ^.^).

[Rosendil]

Crafters CAN earn money. It is not that hard to do, you just work the skill you want, and then sell the results to those willing to buy. Not that difficult...

LOL. Ever tried to sell tailoring goods in the past weeks to Morgan?

[Korm Kormsen]

rosendil,

would you please be so kind, to give us the prices you actually get?
please post them here:http://kormsen.ko.funpic.de/forum/viewforum.php?f=17

thank you,
korm

[Rosendil]

In my opinion the problem are not the prices, but more generally the whole economy: 1) the relationship between the prices the NPCs pay, 2)the amount of money a NPC spends daily, 3) the mass production caused by the current skill system and 4) many (crafter) players who gain all resources by themselves and get skilled in any craft to produce the needed resources by themselves and last but not least the 5) rich drops from the treasure hunting.

If you want to change something to become better, the whole economy has to be reconsidered, not only some prices.

[Estralis Seborian]

If you want to change something to become better, the whole economy has to be reconsidered, not only some prices.

Right, get crackin'!
I appreciate any measures that are taken to help the economy. Collecting real ingame prices is one, so one can research the mechanisms how prices are formed. But it can only be a small step.

[Mr. Cromwell]

Which is why a dedicated discussion arena for the entire grand scheme of things is even more imperative..

[maryday]

[waste of time and energy=]
Sure.

Do with the changes i made, whatever you wish.
((Because its sooooooooooooooo much work to push a `undo`button.))

And maybe also ask the Kazars to "deflate" the price for thread even further from two to one coppercoin.

They started buying them on an ammount of thousands.
Soon EVERYONE would not be buying on more then two.


I go to the wiki, what do i see?
2 CC.

I CHANGED THE PRICELIST TO A WISHLIST?!

Sure.
Next time explain your shortcuts beforehand.
Next time examine the changes someone made, with a bit more seriousity,
before you start whining an bitching, [now rude]or simply give a shit for all time, and effort of other people.
LIKE I DO AS IT HOPEFULLY APPEARS TO YOU.


*shrugs his shoulders, sticks his hands to the pockets, and walks off,
thinking of many most interesting, and even more unpleasant things which could be the last, painfull step for this char.
Not looking back even once to the line gathering infront of the door to the ivory tower.*
~Palindrome~


((With your allscrutinizing eyes you might notice, by EXAMINING my way of speaking,
that the pains i`ve caused your arses hopefully, might soon be over.))



And another thing: When i started playing, not so long ago,
thread was only to be found from mummies.

No thread from pigs.




*starts to slap his forehead*
If it was your intention, to create a "locked discussion arena, ran by the wealthy and most reasonable mental nobelty of the island",
why in hell have you started to state your points here openly at all?

[ogerawa]

maryday... you didn't waste time and energy. The edit i made after your last one was based on the contribution before my third column and yours, since you edit things at the wrong place. Now it should fits to the columns. You can check the stuff that you gave input to, which mostly regarding farming and cooking.

Eventhough i think some of those prices are really really over the line, but i still respect the input thus i didn't change it and only move it to the appropriate column.

[Korm Kormsen]

If you want to change something to become better, the whole economy has to be reconsidered, not only some prices.

the finding out of the real prices is but a first step. no big step, but a necessary one.

we here in illarion so often tend to forget the council of that old fat chinese commie Mao.
in his wisdom he found out, that the first step has to come before the second...