Map changes: Building shadows

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:08 pm

In the good old days, the access to building shadows was limited by stones that were placed there. Then the big map expansion came and this was abandoned.

Currently, the GMs consider it "bug abusing" when somebody makes use of the feature "building shadow". Note that a character who is in the shadows of a building cannot be targetted nor seen, not even by characters that are in the shadows themselves.

Many might know I give a smile on realism and I am one of the last who promotes to take something out the game that offers roleplay options. Shady characters, hiding in the shadows of buildings, stepping out of them and whispering something like "Shh! Want to buy an O?", that's something I like to see in this game.

So, what to do? First, I'd block all building shadows of two story buildings (problems seems not to be present for one story buildings) with stone, hedges, whatever. This way, running in the building shadows get prevented and the GMs have a reason less to ban players

. Furthermore, the OOC-bitching ingame might get reduced. However, since building shadows also offer options for playing shady characters, I'd leave some gaps in the stones so shady chars can hide there without being able to escape an unwanted situation.

One request: In case anybody replies to this, don't start unrelated bitchin' about certain players (ab)using building shadows.

Effort: Map changes (trivial), map update

Elsi · Post by **Elsi** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:15 pm

Yesterday one of my characters was leapt on from a building shadow and backstabbed, without warning or provocation (may have been a case of mistaken identity, though..)

I thought it was a 'feature' and not a bug (in other words, it was a pretty cool thing). I don't suppose there's any way to partially 'fix' the problem? How complicated is it to make a character vulnerable to some affects and not others? Or to establish a role playing convention that if a character in a building shadow is surrounded he or she is vulnerable? I mean, there's nothing stopping someone from just logging off if they want to cheat anyway.

Pellandria · Post by **Pellandria** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:26 pm

Are you sure about the attacking of "hidden" chars?
As long as I know you still can choose them as a target as long as you know where exactlythey stand.

For the Proposal itself, yes its bad that people who run from fights and so on but on the other side we alsohave chars that simply dilike to get in contact with people and wait and observ in the shadows and leaving only a little few spots free doesn't really get the point across, people/chars would see the char running to the free point and as almost everyone in illa seems to see everything...

Ambrosine · Post by **Ambrosine** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:19 pm

It would be a bit difficult for elves to get in and out of the building (the back way) on Vanima if the route were blocked simply because there's a second story shadow there.

Adano Eles · Post by **Adano Eles** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:31 pm

A function to turn walls transparent, like I suggested in the other thread, could solve the problem of building shadows, and also make movement behind high buildings easier. Right now it sometimes can be tricky to find your way to the back entrance of Vanima for example.

Taliss Kazzxs · Post by **Taliss Kazzxs** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:01 pm

Rocks, shrubs, transparency, what every you use, please fix it. It does no good to play any form of enforcement when every time you attempt to chase down a criminal they run into the shadows of a building and you lose them, Only to have them come prancing through a heavily guarded town without the slightest bit of fear, only moment later. They then repeat the chase over again and end up right back in the shadows of a building.

Mr. Cromwell · Post by **Mr. Cromwell** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:09 pm

The transparency would be good, as it would make houses look a little bit more spacious, too.

Juliana D'cheyne · Post by **Juliana D'cheyne** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:17 pm

I like the idea of a transparency if possible combining possibly even a couple of rocks to block the way if not seen well even with transparency. If not possible, perhaps not just leaving a couple of areas free, but if say the rock blocked every 3-4 step, or an unexpected tree, this would be enough to keep someone from "using" this too well. The rule of not being able to use this "bug" to escape in the RP is not readily apparent to new players, and a "bug" means it is in the process of being fixed. If ig as long as this, it seems there should be a different alternative.

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:10 pm

You can keep some one targeted behind building shadows.

Taliss, look at it from a current bandit's (or other evil-doer's) point of view. There is always an uber mage or warrior in town to strike down thieves and the like in Troll's Bane. It sucks to play a bandit that never escapes. Shady characters really need more places to escape. If a shady character is caught after doing anything but a petty crime they will likely get jailed and their PO won't be able to play them for some time. If you take away their only way out Illarion will become full of do-gooders and no one to stop them. Besides, I thought it was the RP leading to the chase that was supposed to be more fun.

Go Estralis's idea!

Post by **Nitram** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:13 pm

The transparent thingy is nice and good, but impossible. The client can only show what it knows. And the "shadows" are tiles, items and characters that are completly unknown to the client. It just does not know that there is anything. So it can't fade out the things aboth.
That can be solved by a major update of the whole map system. But that takes a lot of time.

Dantagon Marescot · Post by **Dantagon Marescot** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:22 pm

[quote="Lrmy]Besides, I thought it was the RP leading to the chase that was supposed to be more fun.[/quote]

The RP leading up to the chase can be fun. It is the constant chasing and RARELY being able to catch the person that isn't fun. Then having to watch them prance into town five minutes later, watch them stick their tongue out at you, and have them make you chase them all over town again. It gets rather annoying, so look at it from a good-doers point of view.

Taliss Kazzxs · Post by **Taliss Kazzxs** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:23 pm

Lrmy wrote:You can keep some one targeted behind building shadows.

Taliss, look at it from a current bandit's (or other evil-doer's) point of view. There is always an uber mage or warrior in town to strike down thieves and the like in Troll's Bane. It sucks to play a bandit that never escapes. Shady characters really need more places to escape. If a shady character is caught after doing anything but a petty crime they will likely get jailed and their PO won't be able to play them for some time. If you take away their only way out Illarion will become full of do-gooders and no one to stop them. Besides, I thought it was the RP leading to the chase that was supposed to be more fun.

Go Estralis's idea!

Thats only right in moderation. If a crimminal always gets away after willingly walking into what should be impossible situations, there is something wrong wtih that. An escaped convict does not waltz into a police station and say "Greetings".

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:24 pm

Well, you can't tell which criminals are allowed to escaped from you and which aren't because of moderation. "I let three go today, sorry you have to be jailed." A police station is far different from Bane. Maybe certain characters go back in town after being chased and say greetings because their friends are near, whether you know it or not. I know the do-gooders point of view as well. Just to remind you, if the tables got turned again in game ("bad" guys controlling) there would be the same problem from the "good" guys. I know this because I have seen it consistently from whoever has the lower hand.

Taliss Kazzxs · Post by **Taliss Kazzxs** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:35 pm

Just so you know I play shady chars just as I play good and neutral ones. Recently I have been playing with you on nearly a daily basis and you didn’t even know it was me. I cause a bit of trouble in TB just as on another char I try to prevent it.

If I remember correctly during the time of the "dark empire" if you would call it that. Dain was the Captain of the Guard and all the good chars had enough sense to stay out of Trollsbane. Infact the only time you may have seen Taliss around then was when he and the knights snuck in to rescue Shen and Artimer.

The shadows of buildings are just an unneeded advantage. As is a guard could chase a criminal around the isle all day for the simple fact that its rare to cross enough tiles to catch up with them, and if you do they are recovering life through the duration of the chase. Not to mention their blinding speed as they dodge every grab attempt while wearing that light and maneuverable silversteel armor.

Miklorius · Post by **Miklorius** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:45 pm

Nitram wrote:The transparent thingy is nice and good, but impossible. The client can only show what it knows. And the "shadows" are tiles, items and characters that are completly unknown to the client. It just does not know that there is anything. So it can't fade out the things aboth.

How do the actual transparency effects work?

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:23 am

Taliss Kazzxs wrote: If I remember correctly during the time of the "dark empire" if you would call it that. Dain was the Captain of the Guard and all the good chars had enough sense to stay out of Trollsbane. Infact the only time you may have seen Taliss around then was when he and the knights snuck in to rescue Shen and Artimer.

Sorry to veer off topic a bit more but I was not speaking on just that time period. I'm speaking of years time. From the lich's controlling the town to having people run behind buildings in orc raids to chasing "good" guys out of town with dain only to have them escape me every time. Taliss, the knights and guards are not the only good guys. Who said I only played bad guys anyways?

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:59 am

Pardon me, but some replies are pretty far from the point, sorry. The point is: There is a "feature" that can be used. If you use it, GMs might ban you. So, best thing is to deactivate this feature in a simple and proven way. Because it has some uses you might not get banned for, I was searching for a way to keep these uses.

Remember this idea is nothing new. We had exactly what I'm proposing before the map change. It was taken out without replacement. It might be nice to have a sophisticated transparency function in the client, but since you all might have found out that even small client updates to integrate new items are currently, let's say, an obstacle, I doubt this will come anytime soon.

One question remains: Do you see any negative effects of limiting access to building shadows besides drawbacks or advantages for persona play?

Adano Eles · Post by **Adano Eles** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:05 am

The only drawback I see is that it makes large areas unwalkable, especially behind larger buildings. Some buildings, like Tol Vanima have entrances on the hidden side. Due to map design, reaching these can be a bit tricky already.

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:13 am

Well, I am quite sure one can make an exception there until somebody reverts this bad map design. When I reported this right after Vanima being build, the original builder was pretty... stubborn. I don't think the Vanima-shadows are a problem for there are no walls that block sight.

Adano Eles · Post by **Adano Eles** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:15 am

In Vanima the upper floors are blocking sight. That can be even more confusing as there's no way to tell what is ground and what first floor unless you suddenly walk below a ground tile.

Mr. Cromwell · Post by **Mr. Cromwell** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:41 am

Nitram wrote:The transparent thingy is nice and good, but impossible. The client can only show what it knows. And the "shadows" are tiles, items and characters that are completly unknown to the client. It just does not know that there is anything. So it can't fade out the things aboth.
That can be solved by a major update of the whole map system. But that takes a lot of time.

Would another option to have a function (maybe one of the 'unused' F-x keys?) which would simply *not* show some aspects of the game? First phase, roofs, second floors, et cetera are not shown, second phase, all wall-objects aren't shown? They are still there, functioning as they were, but for the purposes of the client they are 'removed' from sight.

This way, the client could not-show these things which are visible for it?

Adano Eles · Post by **Adano Eles** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:48 am

The problem as I understand is that the client does not know what is behind the walls it shows. Hence it cannot turn them invisible as there'd only be a black nothing behind.

ogerawa · Post by **ogerawa** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:01 pm

if it's possible... it would be nice to have the building shadows as part of the building. So when we walk into the shadow, all the floors above gone, and we can see inside of the building (PO wise).

Map wise.. can just add roof tiles, but if it's visible... then the people on second floor and up can't see things under such roof. For example, the roof between eliza and gatehouse, by staying under the roof, we can see the things inside the building but not the people behind the walls. So.. if there is... an invisible roof or it can be made to trick the client... then might be able to help... i guess.

Korm Kormsen · Post by **Korm Kormsen** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:11 pm

but why would we or our chars want to know, who is in another building?

Lennier · Post by **Lennier** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:17 pm

ogerawa wrote:if it's possible... it would be nice to have the building shadows as part of the building. So when we walk into the shadow, all the floors above gone, and we can see inside of the building (PO wise).

Map wise.. can just add roof tiles, but if it's visible... then the people on second floor and up can't see things under such roof. For example, the roof between eliza and gatehouse, by staying under the roof, we can see the things inside the building but not the people behind the walls. So.. if there is... an invisible roof or it can be made to trick the client... then might be able to help... i guess.

It was ready tested by me, when the staff had this idea maybe 2 years ago. It is not possible currently..

or in better words: The dissadvantages by "invisible" roofs are larger than their advantages.

The reason: The invisble roofs are not invisble in all cases. The server/client cut out all tiles below - so that we would have thousands of "black" tiles at the map.

ogerawa · Post by **ogerawa** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:25 pm

Korm Kormsen wrote:but why would we or our chars want to know, who is in another building?

eerrmm... no... we still can't see who is behind walls (like the current version)... just that the building shadow will be gone. Thus opening more spaces as well, since we can actually have buildings with only 1-2 tiles away from each other and it won't matter. Can have that sort of alleys to run to.

Another thing... would be possible for chars to peek inside a building thru windows, if we have a 1 tile "roof" west and south of the building as well.

PO wise... it's possible to see into the building and see what items in it. I believe everyone can RP that they all don't have such X-Ray vision. And even as PO we can't see who is in the building (just like the current system, try to stand under the roof between eliza and gatehouse, you won't be able to see anyone who is using the depot) and where they are unless you are standing in front of a window to see inside.

EDIT: then.. would it be okay to put real roofs for tall buildings? Not sure... regarding the disadvantages