Death systems

[Estralis Seborian]

I became aware that there are many good ideas around about how death could be handled. Here are some general concepts I found on the boards or in other games as well as my own ideas. Note that I am not in favour of all of them and that I am not adressing the punishment for death, I think it is just fine the way it is now.

We all know it is very hard for newbies to get resurrected. There are few crosses on the map and one is supposed to find a sometimes invisible “yellow cross”. Note that this worked out fine on the old map (1/9 of the size), but with our current map size, it is not possible to find a “yellow cross” – also there are none and those objects that replaced the crosses are sometimes invisible. So:

• The term yellow cross has to be replaced by e.g. “holy pillar”
• The bug that makes crosses invisible (=NPC looking direction not known to the client) has to be fixed

Nevertheless some of the mentioned options do not even require to fix these bugs for an item like a “yellow cross” (in fact, they are NPCs) won’t be visible and the need to walk to a resurrection place is also not present. Anyway, here are the nominees:

1. Keep everything exactly like it is!
   Just fix the bugs and leave the rest untouched.
   Effort: Low
2. More crosses!
   Do not change anything technical but increase the number of crosses after fixing the bugs.
   Effort: Map changes, NPC duplication
3. Temples!
   All temples and shrines get the ability to resurrect chars. With up to 16 temples, we could even get rid of the current crosses and I assume most newbies are able to find a temple. We already have a lot of temples / shrines, see: http://illarion.org/community/wiki/inde ... lk:Gods/de (german only)
   Effort: Like for more crosses, upcoming map changes for new temples build by players
4. Central respawn!
   Upon death, a character is teleported (after a delay) to a central respawn point, like some sort of temple. This way, all dead chars would meet at one site.
   Effort: Map changes, not much effort
5. Insert coin to continue!
   After death, a char stays a cloud for some time. Then, the char gets resurrected automatically where it is right now.
   Effort: A bit more
6. Death Realm™!
   Upon death, a character is teleported (after a delay) to a special map with some sort of maze. One has to find one’s way out or solve some sort of quest. The maze could change with time. When one finds the exit / solves the quest, one is a) teleported back to the location one died b) a central respawn point c) random temple d) temple closest to location of death
   Effort: Massive compared to the others
7. Temples reloaded!
   Upon death, a character is teleported (after a delay) to a) a random b) the closest c) a default d) a predefined (e.g. by being a follower of a certain god) temple / shrine of a god. These shrines resurrect the char immediately.
   Effort: As for temples, scripts are trivial

As one might guess, I am in favour of the last two concepts with the Death Realm being too much effort IMHO. I think we all agree that the Illarion gods need more attention and more impact on the game, I also felt this during “The Days of Fire” – many characters are convinced atheists, some might argue this is strange in a world like it is described in the Illarion background. So, with such a concept, we’d kill two birds with one stone: Newbies won’t have a problem getting resurrected and pros would actually feel the power of the gods. Also, when priest magic gets implemented, some nice synergy effects can evolve, like priest of god A gets teleported to the shrine of god A while infidels get teleported to e.g. Cherga’s temple.

Any further idea? Add them! Any additons to a concept? Tell us! Any system you don’t like? Don’t tell us , tell us what you’d like instead!

[Elsi]

I do like the 'death realm' idea, but appreciate that it's a tremendous amount of effort.

The temples idea is interesting as well.

Teleporting to a temple... only if there is some way to set it so that the system 'knows' which temple a particular character should go to... it really ought to relate to who the PC worships, and there should be a way for PCs who do NOT wish to be beholden to the gods to resurrect to the gods as well (or, at least, a way to pay the debt once it is accrued).

[Elsi]

...actually, 'convert or stay dead' might be a viable option. Once you die, you MUST declare allegiance to a god to return to life, and afterwards only that god or one friendly to it WILL resurrect you. It sounds like a reasonable choice for those who have declared that they 'live without the Gods' to have to make... a true, hard core, role playing dilemma.

[Llama]

I don't lyke the teleportation to be honest. Say you're fighting a person and you happen to die by accident, you just.. dissappear?

Or you just die by accident, and nobody knows you're dead (think you relogged or summat) and leave your stuff to rot.

Personally I'd prefer it as being all shrines/temples ressurect, as well as the crosses.

[Estralis Seborian]

Upon death, a character is teleported (after a delay) to...

Note the word "delay".

To clarify the god-affinity, it is planned in the priest magic system that one can "choose" to be follower of a god, even without being a priest. But that's a side issue.

[Alytys Lamar]

The temple idea looks very interesting in my eyes. Especially new players having a problem to found the *Cross*.

My opinion is let the Char teleport to the nearest temple/shrine he died. The only thing I dislike about this idea is the loss of the items, the chance to get them back is very less then.

But nonetheless I would say go for Idea 7

Another Idea could be to let setup the player a fixpoint he wishes to respawn in his hometown (example: Aleytys died in fight with a dragon, respawn point could be Varshikar/Oasis). Causes the same problem of loss items as well.

[abcfantasy]

I like the idea of a player able to set up an optional respawn point.

For example, a character could go to a cross, type something like !save, then when he is clouded, he could write !cross or something and he is teleported to the cross.

However I think this requires a chance in the server, right?

[Elsi]

I like the idea of a player able to set up an optional respawn point.

For example, a character could go to a cross, type something like !save, then when he is clouded, he could write !cross or something and he is teleported to the cross.

However I think this requires a chance in the server, right?

What's the IG explanation? Let's not turn this into a device of convenience, death should always be traumatic and major, except for those characters of near godly power.

[abcfantasy]

There has to be a compromise between IG explanations and roleplay and what's fun for the players. If a player sees this method as bad for roleplay, he/she is always free not to use it. Newbies who are troubled might find it useful. When you're killed alone deep inside the graveyard, it's useful too.

Besides, an explanation can always be the power of the Gods, who has returned the char to the world at those crosses (or technically, and the "save" point. Although it'll be a bit stupid not to set it near a cross).

[Beldir]

I have a proposal that is similiar to 5.:

You get a cloud and can resurrect yourself whenever you want. The atributes are all set down to mabe.. 3 for a while.

I think this would be good, because especially if you are in a group, you wait untill the fight is over, ressurect yourself and go on with rp, without having to go to the cross.

[Juliana D'cheyne]

I like the idea of a player able to set up an optional respawn point.

For example, a character could go to a cross, type something like !save, then when he is clouded, he could write !cross or something and he is teleported to the cross.

However I think this requires a chance in the server, right?

I also like this idea. For one thing it will encourage RP if other chars know your fixed point and can meet you. As far as the temple (please no mazes) idea that is fine with me also. People have tried getting the "yellow cross" changed for ages and it still remains a yellow cross. I would suggest either adding a yellow cross at each temple site, or/and have a map on wiki of where all the temples are.

Let's not turn this into a device of convenience

IMO, RP can generally be figured out in even a RP story/quest of how this came about later. Shouldn't we concentrate on what is best for the game and new PO's?

Beldir..... I am not sure this can be accomplished ig, but to have a choice, resurrect here or temple would be nice and a great boon to RP

Additionally, it would be VERY nice if the "gods" of Gobaith could see their way to granting another favor by not permanently taking away any training for a ghosting once a week, or even random.

[Beldir]

You said the idea of ressurecting in a temple or at a cross is good.. what about that the atibutes are set down at 3 untill you visit the next cross or temple or untill a druid or priest heals you?

[Elsi]

There has to be a compromise between IG explanations and roleplay and what's fun for the players. If a player sees this method as bad for roleplay, he/she is always free not to use it. Newbies who are troubled might find it useful. When you're killed alone deep inside the graveyard, it's useful too.

Besides, an explanation can always be the power of the Gods, who has returned the char to the world at those crosses (or technically, and the "save" point. Although it'll be a bit stupid not to set it near a cross).

Yes, there has to be a compromise. That means that there must be *some* nod to role play. This method strikes me as totally on the 'game mechanics' side.

[AlexRose]

Why can't you just set the cross npc so that it has a south/west/east graphic? This would fix that problem. Otherwise, I personally like the current system.

[Rosendil]

I like the suggestions 3, 4 and 7 - maybe combinated together.

[Wyrda]

PERMA-DEATH

[Vern Kron]

Wasn't merri attacked randomly? Wouldn't it suck if a newb came up and killed you, and then oops can't play any more!
I like the idea, but I think that there should be an option. When you die it says, "The temple calls to you, do you wish to return yet?" Yes to teleport and no to have ghost RP. Nothings better than a good haunting.

[Wyrda]

yah that would suck, and i would think the gm's would bring merri back if that did happen.

[Mr. Cromwell]

yah that would suck, and i would think the gm's would bring merri back if that did happen.

Yeah, perma-death with constant exceptions to the rule, because that would work.

lol.

1. Fix the bugs (including; sensible placement of crosses and addition of more, if it is seen as something necessary).
2. Teleport-system to the nearest cross for (N) characters (thus they'll know where at least one cross is, in the future).
3. Leave the rest as it is and focus the development attention and energy on something else.

[Caldrion Sternenglanz]

[*]Death Realm™!
Upon death, a character is teleported (after a delay) to a special map with some sort of maze. One has to find one’s way out or solve some sort of quest. The maze could change with time. When one finds the exit / solves the quest, one is a) teleported back to the location one died b) a central respawn point c) random temple d) temple closest to location of death
Effort: Massive compared to the others

Wow, this is a very good idea and i like it much. One time it could be a Labyrinth, another time a Ghost in front of the door to live making riddles and so on.

Like it.

[maryday]

Hmm. An addition for Newbies, would make sense, sure.
A auto teleport to the next cross, has nonetheless a very low "educational" worth.
I`d propose less punishing mechanics for (N) for example, a bit less skilloss/itemloss, or the first Xcloudings, or the like.



Another point, might be generally to degrade the lowest skills of a char.
So each char will be able to keep the specialisations,

whatever they might be.

Hmmm..I would also propose, the higher the TOP3 skills of a char are,
the more he would loose on clouding, at secondary skills.


I would propose this "DeathRealm" be part ob the NewbieIsland;
On location, and on development effort;

[Estralis Seborian]

1. Fix the bugs (including; sensible placement of crosses and addition of more, if it is seen as something necessary).
2. Teleport-system to the nearest cross for (N) characters (thus they'll know where at least one cross is, in the future).
3. Leave the rest as it is and focus the development attention and energy on something else.

Best reply so far, I never thought about treating newbies different than old players. As far as I know, newbies have a certain newbie tag, skill loss upon death (what's not subject of this discussion) is deactivated for them. I am not sure wether scripts can detect this tag or how much effort it would be to implement this, but our devs might know.

One important aspect is that teleporting dead characters is trivial while something like resurrection upon request or similar things are not. Anyway, any other ideas?

[Taeryon Silverlight]

I say 2 ftw

[Nitram]

The newbie flag is not detectable by the scripts.

But why not give all players a tracking device to the nearest cross.
( You feel dragged north )

[AlexRose]

Someone should make cloud floor tile graphics .

[Lrmy]

Nitram has the only easily effective idea I think so far. The main problem I think is newbie deaths. Newbies are likely not to know a !save command or a !re-spawn(or whatever) command. Also think if you died after a fight by a guard. If you poofed away then they have to find the cross you are at to jail you? or wait for you to get back from a death-land? Would suck for them if you had to leave randomly during the journey through death-land. The temples just seem like extra work. Maybe if temples are built they can have a place to resurrect for extra RP like the Grey Rose or Silverbrand(still?). More crosses I don't think are needed if Nitram's idea was in effect. Like I said, extra work...