Diet System Version 2?

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:52 am

Now you'd probably think I'd be the last person to comment on the diet system, however it seems to be the case that very few people like it, and its rather irritating.

Now I'm not saying anything bad about the way it was programmed, what went wrong is that in order to compensate for racial differences, KISS went right out of the window.

Currently most people don't know whether they should pay the cook for meal X, and how much it'll help them. I know there are supposed to be books planned (yeah, sorry about that), but I think its just a bit TOO irritating for pretty much anyone.

So what I suggest is this, going back to basics.

"Free Food": Anything you can get from a tree, and raw fish, oh and veggies.
"Normal Food": Anything that isn't a 'meal' (you know, rabbit meal, xxx meal) or a cake
"Good Food": A meal, or a cake.

Now, if we REALLY want to make it a bit more complex, then you can change the degree of change depending on the race and the expense, however keeping THIS SAME BASIC FORM. For example: A dwarf eating a cake would give him less 'good food' effect then him eating some steak - but it'll still count as good food.

Only exceptions: Lizards can eat raw fish as 'normal food' (and cake and stuff as free food), and orcs can eat meat but not veggie stuff.

There, simple isn't it?

Anyone like it?

AlexRose · Post by **AlexRose** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:40 am

And it gives you a con modifier?

Sounds pretty much like the current one, but with 3 groups instead of 5.

Post by **Jupiter** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:47 am

I like the system like it is.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:48 am

AlexRose wrote:And it gives you a con modifier?

Sounds pretty much like the current one, but with 3 groups instead of 5.

Its meant to be that way.

Just its simple and basic, you don't need to worry about what's good for you and what isn't.

Post by **Nitram** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:50 am

I like the system as it is as well.

It works pretty good and is all in all easy to understand and quite logical if you think more then 10 seconds about it.

And its fully developed and working. No need to change something working in my opinion. Wasted time.

Nitram

ogerawa · Post by **ogerawa** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:52 am

The current system... the harder it is to make that food, the better it is for the diet. For special races, they get bonus for certain type of food and malus for other based on the race's preferences. For special races can be check in forum or wiki i guess... Not simple enough?

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:58 am

You forgot a poll option: "The very old system with no hassle at all"

. *makes cross*

KISS forever!

PS: The current system could have my vote when you remove the CON-malus for bad diet

Kaila Galathil Travinus · Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:29 pm

Estralis Seborian wrote:You forgot a poll option: "The very old system with no hassle at all" . *makes cross*

KISS forever!

PS: The current system could have my vote when you remove the CON-malus for bad diet

nods enthusiastically

pharse · Post by **pharse** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:29 pm

You can't have advantages without any disadvantages. Don't you believe in Karma?

The current system is in its basics quite simple to understand (ogerawa stated a short version). Only if one wants to understand how it is scripted and how it works in detail, most people will fail. If you are not sure about the ingredients, e.g. if a fairy should eat a mulligan or is meat in it? Just ask your local cook.

AlexRose · Post by **AlexRose** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:39 pm

That's a GREAT idea.

"Hi, can I buy some food?"
"Sure, I have some meat dishes."
"Oh.. aren't meat dishes bad for me?"
"Oh no, meat dishes are the best for fairies!"
"Oh.. okay, I'll buy them all."

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:42 pm

"Hey, we have something new. When you eat good dishes from a cook, prepared with many delicious ingredients, your character can get a +2 on CON! Hooray!"

---

"We have something new. When your character eats fruits and fish like he did before, he gets a -2 on CON. So you have to go to a cook to avoid getting killed from flies."

Call it a matter of marketing, but punishing established behaviour is rarely welcome, even if the system itself is logical, makes sense and maybe even adds something to the game.

Anyway, I don't like the proposed system for it just takes something away (racial differences) but grants no positive aspect to the game.

pharse · Post by **pharse** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:44 pm

hu? what's wrong with you, Alex? Your replies get more and more imprudent.

There are mulligans with and without meat. How should a non-cook know which type it is in Illarion?

Anyway, it is publicly stated that meat dishes are bad for fairies. Thus this should be considered when creating the char concept.

AlexRose · Post by **AlexRose** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:47 pm

Yes, that's why the cooks LIE and tell you the item you're buying is good for you when it's actually bad, because they want money...?

If I played a cook I'd sell apples to orcs, meat to fairies and cakes to lizards as long as I made money from it.

"I want a vegetarian mulligan, this is one, right?"
"Yeah, yeah, sure.. that'll be a silver".

Dariya · Post by **Dariya** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:52 pm

AlexRose wrote:Yes, that's why the cooks LIE and tell you the item you're buying is good for you when it's actually bad, because they want money...?

If I played a cook I'd sell apples to orcs, meat to fairies and cakes to lizards as long as I made money from it.

"I want a vegetarian mulligan, this is one, right?"
"Yeah, yeah, sure.. that'll be a silver".

don't imply others to act the way you do, Alex

Kaila Galathil Travinus · Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:09 pm

If it is "publically stated" about meat dishes and fairies... then I missed it and would imagine most new people would also.

Any "fun" was taken out of the game when my new char had to stop to cook AFTER, begging someone for a spoon... fishing to get a bucket not knowing where else to get one, and spending lots of time killing pigs for pork in order to go to the mummies to try to get even the "bad' weapons or armor, almost getting ghosted quite a few times while having to eat apples. The time waiting to heal because couldn't afford potions is just another added frustration. As far as RPing.. in between others begging my char for food as was cooking, there was no one at any place they went to train the skill........ most NPC places are far away from most RP opportunities except for the one in TB... which is too strong for even my strong fighter char to want to go to and not spend a ton on antivenom potions. Would still be wearing the old torn armor and carrying corroded weapons if not for the fact a smith gave a handout of some rejected items.

IMO the game SHOULD be easier then this especially for new players if we want to encourage them to stay. How many of you have given things to new players? I would say every one of us has... be it tools.. weapons.. teaching etc. This is good, but the game should be set up in such a way as not necessary for the new char to have to get handouts in order to enjoy the game.

pharse · Post by **pharse** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:17 pm

Dariya wrote:don't imply others to act the way you do, Alex

So true. By the way, this is an IG matter. Actually there are enough reliable cooks AFAIK.

If it is "publically stated" about meat dishes and fairies... then I missed it and would imagine most new people would also.

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=24547
http://illarion.org/community/wiki/inde ... iet_System

The diet system will be mentioned on the newbie island.

Mr. Cromwell · Post by **Mr. Cromwell** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:36 pm

pharse wrote:Only skill-focused, selfish or elitist players or nitpickers are annoyed by the diet system. That is the result of my empirical observation.

When it comes to the game, I'm something like a libertarian. I do not object to giving positive effect for doing something in the game. However, I don't like it when something is first forced on me (okay, having to eat is not bad) but then it's done in a way which will result in a technical disadvantage when I don't do it in a 'certain way'. Especially when this technical punishment hurts some (fighters) worse than some others (everyone else).

Giving bonuses and encouraging people to buy 'good food' = Good.
Punishing people for not buying and eating the 'good food' = Bad.

The lack of artificial, punishment related demand increase for 'good food' will also be useful for getting the food prices to a sustainable level in the game. It's nothing personal, and I hope I won't be punished for harassment now (because clearly I must hate Pharse for real

).

My opinion can be summed up as: Remove the punishment for failure to carry cash into the wallet of your neighbourhood cook, then the system is good.´

EDIT:
Perhaps it would be better to have a revised 'bonus' of +1 Con (warriors), +1 Dex (craftsmen) and +1 int (mages) in this particular order instead of +2 con that is the bonus now, simply to encourage 'all' groups to buy good food.

Fianna Heneghan · Post by **Fianna Heneghan** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 5:23 pm

Kaila Galathil wrote:IMO the game SHOULD be easier then this especially for new players if we want to encourage them to stay. How many of you have given things to new players? I would say every one of us has... be it tools.. weapons.. teaching etc. This is good, but the game should be set up in such a way as not necessary for the new char to have to get handouts in order to enjoy the game.

So, I know this is veering off topic a little and I apologize for that. I just wanted to say that Fianna is a pure crafter, doesn't wear armor and can be badly hurt even by a newbie fighter. I think letting new players choose fighting skills right out of the library would make those random newb attacks even less fun than they already are.

If they want to play they will stick around and figure it out they way we did. The game is fun even with the quirks. If they don't want to put the time in to figure it out, maybe we aren't really losing anything when they leave? Also, the starting packs have been reworked so that crafters get the tools they need. Fighters don't get craft tools. That's a choice each player makes at character creation. No one forces them.

I remember my newb days and how frustrating it was when I needed something. I didn't really see it as hand-outs though, but as an opportunity to interact with other players. I thought it was fun even when it was frustrating. That's why I'm still here.

Korm Kormsen · Post by **Korm Kormsen** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 5:53 pm

@nitram,

as is clearly seen in this thread, everything, that hinders players to max out the skills of their chars in two weeks is not wellcome.

so why don't you make a little adjustment to the diet system?

no penalty for bad food. a +2 bonus for eating good food. a +4 bonus for eating excellent food.

everybody will be happy.
(and if you have to lower everybodies con by two for tecnical reasons, just don't anounce it, to keep the children happy)

Juliana D'cheyne · Post by **Juliana D'cheyne** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 6:06 pm

I remember my newb days and how frustrating it was when I needed something. I didn't really see it as hand-outs though, but as an opportunity to interact with other players. I thought it was fun even when it was frustrating. That's why I'm still here.

It is worse on fighters with the food system as it is... as Cromwell pointed out... and a particular fighter got some handouts right away

All I am saying is the game does appear unbalanced.. especially for fighters and mages... I think mages are in the works for attempting to improve. Cromwell, your idea is VERY nice and seems fair to all.

I agree.. some will stick around anyway.. but I wonder how many don't... you and I both know some that want nothing to do with it.. and IMO these were good RPers and would have been an assett to the game.

pharse · Post by **pharse** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:10 pm

Mr. Cromwell wrote:because clearly I must hate Pharse for real

<3 you too.

Perhaps it would be better to have a revised 'bonus' of +1 Con (warriors), +1 Dex (craftsmen) and +1 int (mages) in this particular order instead of +2 con that is the bonus now, simply to encourage 'all' groups to buy good food.

Main problem: how can the script detect if the char is a fighter, crafter or mage?

Besides I was criticised, even insulted for making the diet system so crappy unrealistic. Now you propose that food increases your intelligence? :S

The sole realizable "adjustment" would be the following:
- set Diet-o-Meter to zero for all chars (i.e. reset the diet effect)
- +1 CON for "normal" food
- +2 CON for "good" food

Mr. Cromwell · Post by **Mr. Cromwell** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:28 pm

Misunderstanding.

Instead of total +2 con, it would now be maximum of +3 (1 con, 1 dex, 1 int) which would increase in the same manner as the current system. Maybe even +4 (additional con to max +2) to make one stat which is useful for all to go up by two instead of just one. When there are no disadvantages, I don't mind upping the advantages a little.

Con and Dex are useful for warriors (though the degree of usefulness depends on other factors as well), con and int are useful for mages while dex is useful for craftsmen and con won't hurt them either. Actually, the best possible order would be 1. Con (+1) 2.) Int (+2) 3.) Dex (+3) and maybe 4.) Con (+4, total +2 con) as this goes to a degree in also encouraging the craftsmen to spend money too (which is something we lack now, imo

).

As for the food which increases your intelligence, well.. we do have apples which are bad for your health at the moment. If it has been decided that this system doesn't have to follow RL logic, then don't apply it here either.

ogerawa · Post by **ogerawa** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:45 pm

I think for mages, it's better to have willpower than int....

pharse · Post by **pharse** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:56 pm

I still don't get it really. Please elaborate.

ogerawa · Post by **ogerawa** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:03 pm

It doesn't make sense... but just something to be fair for all current jobs. Something along that line. Currently with only CON, it's like only for fighters and helps a bit for mages but they won't care much since it doesn't really help them. So basically only fighters needed the good diet.

With the malus being removed (from what's proposed), it means... that fighters get the most benefit from it, mages a little and none for crafters. Thus to make everyone buy food and get a good diet, the diet shouldn't affect only CON. Game wise it's good, just not logic at all. But then... sometimes it's nice to have something fun eventhough it's not logic

pharse · Post by **pharse** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:32 pm

yeah, I can read too

What I don't get is how PO Cromwell thinks it should work.

Mr. Cromwell · Post by **Mr. Cromwell** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:46 pm

You are the scripter. I'm just the armchair quarterback.

It could work like: Firstly, disadvantages are removed.
Normal food -> Diet changes + 1 CON (level 1)
Normal/Good? food -> Diet changes +1 INT (level 2)
Good food -> Diet changes +1 DEX (level 3)
Good food -> Diet changes +1 CON (level 4)

The best possible result is thus (all stat-changes simultaneously!) +2 Con, +1 Int, +1 Dex. Of course, 'this' is just my suggestion for the stat-adjustments. 'Bad' food might still decrease the bonuses which have been accumulated (or alternatively for an imho better solution, if possible, the 'accumulated diet' decreases over time (at a sensible rate), so you have to eat good food sometimes to retain the bonuses, but no food has a negative effect on the diet value itself).

Results:
1.) We have a diet system which encourages the participation of everyone.
2.) Nobody is punished for filling the stamina bar with something else than the highest quality food on occassion.
3.) There still should be a considerable demand for food (and thus the for the services of cooks).
4.) Fewer people should be pissed off by the system (because now it's a choice, rather than a necessity)
5.) While not necessarily the most logically implemented feature, we have nonetheless improved it's balance.

pharse · Post by **pharse** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:45 pm

Thanks, now I know what you mean. Anyway, I don't think that any changes will be made until the newbie island is released.

Post by **Nitram** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:47 pm

I guess, if you don't look at that discussion that contains the optinions of a few players, the vote offered a result with more involved voices...

just to note

Leave it as it is. My opinion.

Mr. Cromwell · Post by **Mr. Cromwell** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:53 pm

Well, I am fairly certain that I'm not the only one who didn't vote, simply because the options are unsatisfactory. Besides, if you can read the results, the dissatisfaction with the current system (2+3) actually equals the first option.

I don't like the current diet system, but I would vote for a non-disadvantage giving version of it (like my idea is).

Illarion.org

Diet System Version 2?

Which would you prefer?

Diet System Version 2?