NOTE: ALL PARTS ARE MY PERSONAL FEELINGS AND NOT THAT OF MY CHARACTER
This one I'm sure I will get flammed for but after reading a number of posts on the boards, both new and old, I have observed a bit of hostility towards new players from old ones. Now before the people sitting behind the screen send me E-mail bombs let me explain.
Part of what drew me to Illarion was its unique difference from any other game I have encounter. I have not, in my 14 years of playing video games and computer games, found something that works so hard at being so true to the title RPG. Because of this, new players to the game (sometimes referred to as newbies) post comments that shows they have never encountered or participated in a true RPG. An increasing number of reactions seem to be those of dismissal and hostility towards newer players.
Most newbies come from a generation of players that are taught RPGing (yes I know this an abbreviation) means to collect as much "mid-evil" stuff as is available in game and kill every other "mid-evil" thing they encounter. Perhaps they truly believe killing and power is the only RPGing. Who knows? What really matters is that same players are getting bored with these RPGs and coming to Illarion. When they arrive here they are virtual RPG-children, as they have not yet had an opportunity to try on the face of real RPGing. Older players (meaning anyone older than me and even a few newer ones) read messages from newbies that ask how to gain skills and such, their inquires receive somewhat biting responses. A few times I have seen people restate that rules or purpose of the game (which is great!) but it is when comments are added like “obviously not for you” and “go somewhere else” bother me.
Now in no way do I suggest this is always the case. I'm sure for every example I can site someone else can find a counter example but I'm more worried about a developing trend because I've seen what it can do to a game. Illarion at the moment is a small, nearly exclusive community due to the application system. This leaves people who come across Illarion curious about the game. This seclusion also makes the current members proud and at times pompous which can quickly turn into a mob mentality. Simple fact, it is impossible to know someone's RPGing potential or level simple by reading one posting - especially their first posting. New players should be held to the standards of the game by being reminded and encouraged to remain in character. However, new players must be given the chance to learn and develop. Assuming that everyone is going to get it all right all the time from the first time is, well frankly, stupid. Players should be accountable for their words and actions but they should not be guilty of poor RPGing on the boards and told they don't fit the Illarion player profile before they ever have a chance to play.
I believe the application system was impliemented in the context of helping to filter out people really not interested in role-playing. I guess it is important to state that I don’t see the application system as a guarantee that players will role-play, just that they can. Once in game, the community must police themselves and deal with individuals that choose not to role-play once in game. As police we need to serve tickets (verbal corrects and helpful suggestion) before crying “ban him/her!” In game responses are another issue all together and I don’t want to stray to far from my initial topic.
I just wish that before you hash a new player on the boards for not being in character consider for a moment what other games they would have been able to learn the correct ways. Also remember what brings them here is the same thing that brought the you here - looking for something better.
Criticize away… (and please forgive any spelling or basic grammatical errors)
An observation on Hostility ((Warning: OOC))
Moderator: Gamemasters
yea but there are n00bs that are really annoying, like one yesterday wouldnt stop asking for magic books and armor, it got really annoying. But i agree with wolfskehl there are some of you that almost always have a negetive response to any new peoples questions and its usually because they are wrong... but! you dont have to be so rue in your answers
Hello Wolfskehl
I don't think the purpose of Illarion is as you envision it, particularly at this current time. Before the application system kicked in, we've spent what seemed like forever handling the massive amounts of non-roleplayers, and many old players have grown tired and weary of dealing, explaining, and teaching (not neccessariliy to much avail) and their patience has worn out.
Now that the applicatoin system has kicked in, I tihnk Illarion is no longer a place where someone can play to learn roleplaying from scratch. Rather I think Illarion was and is now intended for people who already have at least a good grasp of the concept of roleplaying and is supposed to be a haven for roleplayers where they don't have to deal with non-roleplayers.
And although, there are a few newbies around who aren't quite too far away from reaching this minimum understanding of roleplaying, there's a lot of them around who are much too far from even this minimum (and yet somehow managed to make it through the application, which I don't think screens "roleplaying" ability very well) and many of the roleplayers don't feel it's worth the time to deal with those. I think they feel they deserve to be able to roleplay in an environment clean of people who don't meet this minimum understanding of roleplaying, as that was what this game was intended to be for.
Perhaps the only other place to learn roleplaying, if you don't already have the capacity to understand it, is text-based roleplaying games, but then those people would probably not have had the patience to play non-graphical games. Maybe they don't have many places to learn, and maybe we might miss out on the rares that develop into good roleplayers, but the game just wasn't meant to be catered to people who aren't roleplaying already.
Plus, a lot of the hostility is due to the fact that there is a lack of willingness to learn what is roleplay on the part of some newbies. Attempts to teach them or correct them are sometimes met with "Man, you take this roleplaying thing too seriously" and "It's just a game. Games are just supposed to be fun." without acknowledging the fact that the fun in this game comes from roleplaying and following the rules, not whatever suits their enjoyment.
Perhaps we may be not talking about exactly the same "new" people, but at the same time I must say that you can't judge just from your brief observation that some of them DON'T deserve the criticism they get. Some of those who recieve criticism don't get it from their "first post", but from the patterns of their behaviors that they seem to show repeatedly (some of which seem to think they are no longer the "newbies"). Maybe there are some who recieve some unjustified hostility, but there also many who've earned the hostility.
I don't think the purpose of Illarion is as you envision it, particularly at this current time. Before the application system kicked in, we've spent what seemed like forever handling the massive amounts of non-roleplayers, and many old players have grown tired and weary of dealing, explaining, and teaching (not neccessariliy to much avail) and their patience has worn out.
Now that the applicatoin system has kicked in, I tihnk Illarion is no longer a place where someone can play to learn roleplaying from scratch. Rather I think Illarion was and is now intended for people who already have at least a good grasp of the concept of roleplaying and is supposed to be a haven for roleplayers where they don't have to deal with non-roleplayers.
And although, there are a few newbies around who aren't quite too far away from reaching this minimum understanding of roleplaying, there's a lot of them around who are much too far from even this minimum (and yet somehow managed to make it through the application, which I don't think screens "roleplaying" ability very well) and many of the roleplayers don't feel it's worth the time to deal with those. I think they feel they deserve to be able to roleplay in an environment clean of people who don't meet this minimum understanding of roleplaying, as that was what this game was intended to be for.
Perhaps the only other place to learn roleplaying, if you don't already have the capacity to understand it, is text-based roleplaying games, but then those people would probably not have had the patience to play non-graphical games. Maybe they don't have many places to learn, and maybe we might miss out on the rares that develop into good roleplayers, but the game just wasn't meant to be catered to people who aren't roleplaying already.
Plus, a lot of the hostility is due to the fact that there is a lack of willingness to learn what is roleplay on the part of some newbies. Attempts to teach them or correct them are sometimes met with "Man, you take this roleplaying thing too seriously" and "It's just a game. Games are just supposed to be fun." without acknowledging the fact that the fun in this game comes from roleplaying and following the rules, not whatever suits their enjoyment.
Perhaps we may be not talking about exactly the same "new" people, but at the same time I must say that you can't judge just from your brief observation that some of them DON'T deserve the criticism they get. Some of those who recieve criticism don't get it from their "first post", but from the patterns of their behaviors that they seem to show repeatedly (some of which seem to think they are no longer the "newbies"). Maybe there are some who recieve some unjustified hostility, but there also many who've earned the hostility.
I disagree with Dyluck, I think we should give people an opportunity to learn to role-play. My opinion might be slightly biased, seeing as I was once 'the irritating newcomer', but I believe most people don't role-play simply because they don't know they should. They don't know what they should and shouldn't be doing, but if we give them a push in the right direction it could help. Of course there are always the people who won't conform until a GM intervenes, but most players are willing to give it a try.
I do remember when I started playing Illa... 'twas myfirst real rpg besides form all those Final fantasy games and such (lol).
Also, yes- it was very confusing.
I did what all these new people should do though... I found a nice mentor, who introduced me to people, got me set up in a trade, and showed me the world of Illarion. Step by step I was shown what was and what wasn't good, and I humbly say thatI learned quickly.
Instead of just jumping in, and start killing things and/or beg for things, New players should at least figure out where they have landed. Illarion is not just as other games, as we have history and everything else that comes with a small scale civilisation. The least a person can do is to identify themselves with the community, and make an effort to find out what living in Illarion is like.
If a person is not even willing to get to know what this is all about when they start off, then how the hell can we take them seriously???
Also, yes- it was very confusing.
I did what all these new people should do though... I found a nice mentor, who introduced me to people, got me set up in a trade, and showed me the world of Illarion. Step by step I was shown what was and what wasn't good, and I humbly say thatI learned quickly.
Instead of just jumping in, and start killing things and/or beg for things, New players should at least figure out where they have landed. Illarion is not just as other games, as we have history and everything else that comes with a small scale civilisation. The least a person can do is to identify themselves with the community, and make an effort to find out what living in Illarion is like.
If a person is not even willing to get to know what this is all about when they start off, then how the hell can we take them seriously???
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Bumbol Woodstock
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just today i met a elf who was new this place and was casting spells in town and casted one near my location which as he said was a warning shot. I attacked him for the offensive action and accidently killed him. He came back and we (myself and crosis) told him that it was against the town rules to cast a spell in town, but he said it was a stupid rule and casted around 5 low level spells, i killed him again. the point is, the application system needs to be harder to get in, if people like this elf sneak in, then maybe soon more of people like him will get in. (also he was ordering me and Crosis and a new hobbiteer (forgot name) to heal him and give him mana pots after i killed him.)
@Wolfskehl
I fully agree. Before we bite someone's head off for trying to learn maybe we should stop to think that at one time we were all newbies. I still am.
@Bumbol
I agree that can really get frustrating when people don't read and follow the rules. I guess the best thing to do is save the log and report it to a GM, that way the GM can send the person a warning through the email or something.
@everyone
Maybe we should not only quit being hostile toward newbies but toward each other as well. ( I know I am guilty of this too, but I am trying to be a little more polite from here out.)
I should start by appologizing to Elaralith and Niniane (don't know if I spelled it right) I know I have posted hostile toward these two and I am sorry for that.
If I forgot anyone I appologize to them too.
Yours Truly,
Crocket (Cerd Cordall)
I fully agree. Before we bite someone's head off for trying to learn maybe we should stop to think that at one time we were all newbies. I still am.
@Bumbol
I agree that can really get frustrating when people don't read and follow the rules. I guess the best thing to do is save the log and report it to a GM, that way the GM can send the person a warning through the email or something.
@everyone
Maybe we should not only quit being hostile toward newbies but toward each other as well. ( I know I am guilty of this too, but I am trying to be a little more polite from here out.)
I should start by appologizing to Elaralith and Niniane (don't know if I spelled it right) I know I have posted hostile toward these two and I am sorry for that.
If I forgot anyone I appologize to them too.
Yours Truly,
Crocket (Cerd Cordall)
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Bumbol Woodstock
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Wolfskehl
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First, I want to thank everyone who provided feedback and also thank those the just spent their time reading my message in the first place. I appreciate the positive responce, which again reminds me of what makes Illarion great is the players.
I would especially like to thank Dyluck for his comments. I enojoy most those people that can differ in opinion but do so in a respectful manner. Admittingly I was not around during those days of stoical instruction which tried the patience of the older characters. Thus it is easy for me to make my observation but in doing so I fail to follow my own advice in trying to see the situation from your persepective.
Perhaps in time, I hope, if we can devise an effective system of application that identifies players with honest interests in learning role-playing may be encouraged and guided in this community.
I would especially like to thank Dyluck for his comments. I enojoy most those people that can differ in opinion but do so in a respectful manner. Admittingly I was not around during those days of stoical instruction which tried the patience of the older characters. Thus it is easy for me to make my observation but in doing so I fail to follow my own advice in trying to see the situation from your persepective.
Perhaps in time, I hope, if we can devise an effective system of application that identifies players with honest interests in learning role-playing may be encouraged and guided in this community.
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Sir Gannon
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It is true some of the older players (including myself) Have gotten short tempered with 'newbies' But as i have said before and as Fooser said were all newbies at ONE point or another. Im thinking other than reading the rules and such there should be an indepth introduction to Roleplaying.
More or less one that deals specifically with Illarion. It might help.
More or less one that deals specifically with Illarion. It might help.
@Korwin: I did not say anything about what we should or should not do. Rather, I am saying what stage this game stands in its development towards its goal of a fully roleplaying game, and with the application system now in place, we are now in a stage of "heavy filtering of those who don't meet the minimum standards" and no longer in a stage of "reforming those who don't meet this minimum (at least not within the roleplaying environment itself) because we HAD to deal with them anyways". But of course, nobody's going to stop you from trying to change them while they're here, but they never should've made it through the application anyways if they couldn't meet at least the basic standards.
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paul laffing
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Just to warn you beforehand, i didn't read all the posts as i wanted to reply right away.
@salathe By the way, i think i know who that noob was and i told him to tell him he was my friend and to give him some good armor
@everyone when you first start this game, you know not what to expect and need a guiding hand to come and help you. Just because you can RP does not mean you can RP in the game. First you need to LEARN HOW TO PLAY THE GAME AND GET COMFORTABLE IN IT. What many "older" folk forget is, they were noobs too. (It also happens to adults, when they get older, they forget they were kids once
Just a sidenote).
My golden rule is:
help as you were once helped.
Now if everyone did this, there would be no problems. I have already helped several noobs, and see no problems. It helps build friendships. heck, when i first started, i couldn't even walk! Unfortunately, the first person i met was Fooser. Even more unfortunately, i became friends with him.
@salathe By the way, i think i know who that noob was and i told him to tell him he was my friend and to give him some good armor
@everyone when you first start this game, you know not what to expect and need a guiding hand to come and help you. Just because you can RP does not mean you can RP in the game. First you need to LEARN HOW TO PLAY THE GAME AND GET COMFORTABLE IN IT. What many "older" folk forget is, they were noobs too. (It also happens to adults, when they get older, they forget they were kids once
Just a sidenote).My golden rule is:
help as you were once helped.
Now if everyone did this, there would be no problems. I have already helped several noobs, and see no problems. It helps build friendships. heck, when i first started, i couldn't even walk! Unfortunately, the first person i met was Fooser. Even more unfortunately, i became friends with him.
Well here is another noob but my first encounter in this game was not bad at all, when I first logged in I could barley manage to walk around let alone understand the basic controls for the game (my manual and tutorial that I downloaded did not and does not work for some reason) so obviously I went to find someone to ask about this. Found some people and stated I needed some help in an RP manner then asked that he walk away with me from the crowd so I could ask a bit bout basic controls and other simple commands. After knowing that the rest was not so very hard to figure out, some things I still don't really know such as magic but since that is no part of my character it doesn't matter.
I agree with Paul that we should be helpful towards new players, I am not saying we should equip them in full plate with a firesword and knights shield and hand them 10 magic books but just a little helpeful advice and hints on what might be a good thing to do so you get started is enough.
Also I do think there could be a guide for new players on the website or in the forum or both (I think I have seen some work in progress or something on the website but nothing is up yet) so if we wrote a short guide and made it sticky in the new players section I think that would help alot and I am sure it would not hurt. Just something simple like what controls do what, that you do gain skills just it takes time, some helpful hints on good places to go for the new players. With something like this it would make it easier for new players to just jump into the game and start exploring their possibilities and interacting with others in an RP manner rather than needing to disturb others by asking everything they do not have a clue about. Just my thoughts on this, and if a moderator thinks it would be a good idea to make a newbie guide sticky in the new players thread I would gladly write one but I might need some help cause I am still pretty new too
but my first encounter in this game was not bad at all, when I first logged in I could barley manage to walk around let alone understand the basic controls for the game (my manual and tutorial that I downloaded did not and does not work for some reason) so obviously I went to find someone to ask about this. Found some people and stated I needed some help in an RP manner then asked that he walk away with me from the crowd so I could ask a bit bout basic controls and other simple commands. After knowing that the rest was not so very hard to figure out, some things I still don't really know such as magic but since that is no part of my character it doesn't matter.I agree with Paul that we should be helpful towards new players, I am not saying we should equip them in full plate with a firesword and knights shield and hand them 10 magic books but just a little helpeful advice and hints on what might be a good thing to do so you get started is enough.
Also I do think there could be a guide for new players on the website or in the forum or both (I think I have seen some work in progress or something on the website but nothing is up yet) so if we wrote a short guide and made it sticky in the new players section I think that would help alot and I am sure it would not hurt. Just something simple like what controls do what, that you do gain skills just it takes time, some helpful hints on good places to go for the new players. With something like this it would make it easier for new players to just jump into the game and start exploring their possibilities and interacting with others in an RP manner rather than needing to disturb others by asking everything they do not have a clue about. Just my thoughts on this, and if a moderator thinks it would be a good idea to make a newbie guide sticky in the new players thread I would gladly write one but I might need some help cause I am still pretty new too
I think, in the way as you described it Drakantor, most of the old ones have the will to help new ones and explain things to them.
But also a hint for the new ones. In the way you call for help, in that way an answer will come.
People crying loud and nerving, wanting to know all and having best equipment, mocking about all ... will get harsh answers.
People asking polite for help, acting like normal people would do, have great chances to become help.
Also as you said, I think, it is no help to give good equipment away. This is no real help and crashes the economie of Illarion.
But also a hint for the new ones. In the way you call for help, in that way an answer will come.
People crying loud and nerving, wanting to know all and having best equipment, mocking about all ... will get harsh answers.
People asking polite for help, acting like normal people would do, have great chances to become help.
Also as you said, I think, it is no help to give good equipment away. This is no real help and crashes the economie of Illarion.
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paul laffing
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MOST people, when they first start, have no clue what this means when this says it is a strictly roleplaying game. So if they cast in town, speak ooc, and stuf like that, instead of yelling at them, TEACH THEM THE RIGHT WAY. Do you think that when you went to school, if the teacher never taught and instead yelled at you for the things you did wrong, you would learn? Point proven.
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paul laffing
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Newbie Thief
Yesterday A hobbit was asking to buy an good axe, so I said I had one, he then said he would give me 100 gold for it so i agreed I put the axe down and he put the gold down, to my disgracement he stole the axe and gold and ran away shouting out Out of rpg words ( like about keyboards ect ) so I chased the thief and I know this was wrong and Im sorry, I paralized him, so he started attacking me with the axe so I killed him with magic, I think he deserved that death and I know I shouldnt have casted In town but It was self-defence 
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paul laffing
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Re: Newbie Thief
I think this is a good excuse. In my opinion you broke no rules. But this is for a GM to decide.Asteron wrote:Yesterday A hobbit was asking to buy an good axe, so I said I had one, he then said he would give me 100 gold for it so i agreed I put the axe down and he put the gold down, to my disgracement he stole the axe and gold and ran away shouting out Out of rpg words ( like about keyboards ect ) so I chased the thief and I know this was wrong and Im sorry, I paralized him, so he started attacking me with the axe so I killed him with magic, I think he deserved that death and I know I shouldnt have casted In town but It was self-defence
I don't think it would be a good ideal to post numbers on the forum, shouldn't it just be turned in to the GMs.Paul wrote:What was his number?
Also Asteron said that he killed the thief, isn't that enough? Being a thief is not against game rules (the character should be punished IN GAME but not the player).
But shouting ooc is against rules so this should be reported to a GM.
Re: Newbie Thief
The only question I have is, after you killed him, did he give you back your axe or the gold? He should, as that is the only way to RP a thief. If you are a thief, and someone catches you and kills you, you must give back the item you stole.Asteron wrote:Yesterday A hobbit was asking to buy an good axe, so I said I had one, he then said he would give me 100 gold for it so i agreed I put the axe down and he put the gold down, to my disgracement he stole the axe and gold and ran away shouting out Out of rpg words ( like about keyboards ect ) so I chased the thief and I know this was wrong and Im sorry, I paralized him, so he started attacking me with the axe so I killed him with magic, I think he deserved that death and I know I shouldnt have casted In town but It was self-defence
@Separdum I agree with you fully. If you were killed realistically, you would have no choice to whether your items were taken or not. To enforce this I suggest a system where if you are knocked out (For the future) another player can take any of the items you hold on your person. And if you die you lose a certain number of randomly selected items. Comments?
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paul laffing
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