Powergaming (cont'd)

[Aegohl]

I wanted to comment on the topic "What is Powergaming?" but god forbid we have open threads at Illarion to post on. That would make this almost like a discussion board, and we can't have that.

Alright, into the topic:

This might sound awfully odd coming from the guy who nerfed Konstantin's skills oh so long ago for powergaming (it's not that I agreed with the rule; it's that it was a rule, and the rest of the staff had already decided he had violated it.), but powergaming is a technical problem at Illarion, not a player problem.

First of all, the problem starts in that the limit to how powerful your character is at Illarion is max skills in *all* skills, meaning that one character can possibly be the best at *all* things. Alternatively in other games you're usually made to min/max. That is, max out skills that are important to you while leaving the skills that aren't low or at zero. The fear of powergaming comes from the fear that players who are "roleplaying less" will ultimately be able to grab all the power, riches, and fame because they're "powergaming more."

This could have changed, but skill gain was so molasses slow even in the middle stages that only the highly-determined maxed out their skills. Alternatively, skill gain from 0 to 50% should be an absolute cakewalk, 50% to 80% should take a handful of days at most, and upwards from there should take maybe a week of regular playing mixed with roleplay. The amount of time it takes to gain skill should not be the limitation (because it's using the skills that's fun, not gaining them); rather, the limitation should be the amount of skill points you have to go around.

Lastly, the "skill cap" at Illarion, is not a "skill cap" and I've never been happy with it. It punishes players for doing what they want to do. It should be the job of a game to facilitate player's fun, not punish it. If you're on during hours where there are fewer players and want to keep training so that when there is player's on you can just rp, it should be your business. Hell, if you're training instead of rping a bit because you had a bad day and want to take it out on some ogres rather than the other players, have at it!

This is how a real skill cap works: a player is allotted x amount of max skill points over all his skills and he can train his skills up to any level as long as the total over all of his skills doesn't exceed x. This generally causes players to min/max. Even more importantly, it causes players to examine what their character "is" which encourages rp. Looking through the skills and deciding which ones are important to the character is almost like picking personality traits.

At Illarion, the low skill gain and skill cap punishes players rather than encourages them into a positive direction, and this worked when it was a closed community, which is why players left in droves when it was opened. Sure, you've replaced them, but now the complaint is about constant bandit attacks and chaos in Trollsbane, which is awfully unfortunate because newbies enter the actual game to Trollsbane.

I've been playing elsewhere (and I won't say where, even if asked. Sorry. It's always bothered me when people try to lure people from Illarion, because no matter what, it's still my home of quite a few years) and the rules there are not anywhere near as strict; in fact, they consider themselves a "relaxed rp" server and if you choose not to roleplay, you absolutely could.

Conversely, the only person there that I've seen not rp is a guy who barely knows English, there are only two bandits that I'm aware of and they usually don't take any gold (doing it for the rp experience rather than for gain), I've had rp experiences there at a level of depth that, perhaps, have only had a small handful of times at Illarion over the years (some rp with Jennifer a long, long time ago comes to mind as very power rp that I see the likes of much more frequently where I'm at), and, believe it or not, and this might shock you, there are more threads left to be commented on than those that are locked!

All of these except for the thread locks I believe are caused by technical problems that don't encourage players to interact (why interact when you have every skill maxed?), roleplay (why roleplay when it's going to take so much work for your character to build up to where you want him?) or to be socially decent human beings at all.

[abcfantasy]

The fear of powergaming comes from the fear that players who are "roleplaying less" will ultimately be able to grab all the power, riches, and fame because they're "powergaming more."

Sad to say that it is true.

Alternatively, skill gain from 0 to 50% should be an absolute cakewalk, 50% to 80% should take a handful of days at most, and upwards from there should take maybe a week of regular playing mixed with roleplay.

That might be good, but not due due to most players' mentality. Of course, the good part I think is that if we gains skills easily, we can focus more on RP and events and stuff, but something makes me believe that seeing the current circumstances, the result will be chaotic and far from the desired, unfortunately.

but now the complaint is about constant bandit attacks and chaos in Trollsbane, which is awfully unfortunate because newbies enter the actual game to Trollsbane.

Sadly true. Personally, I recently play less because the whole game lacks that which you call "relaxed roleplay".

Although I overall agree with your post, it seems it is hard to find solutions to this, seeing the people's current ideologies that they've grown while playing.

[Juliana D'cheyne]

there are only two bandits that I'm aware of and they usually don't take any gold (doing it for the rp experience rather than for gain),

never takes gold.

I like the easier skill gain and being able to adjust what you want capped in order to continue RPing.

This gives the PO time to think of exactly what they want to do with their RP besides becoming the best skilled. I have noticed and it may be just coincidence. But some PO's and/or chars seem to quit playing Illa once their goal of maxing some skill is done. They have spent such a long time doing it, that it is possible they don't know what to do with their char after that. It is a little disconcerting at first to realize you now have your skill, what are you going to do with it but it leads to eventual further character development also.

[Korm Kormsen]

Oh.....

Aegohl, you decept me. i did not find anything of importance in your post, where i could heartyly disagree....

[Aegohl]

Scary. =)

[Juniper Onyx]

But some PO's and/or chars seem to quit playing Illa once their goal of maxing some skill is done. They have spent such a long time doing it, that it is possible they don't know what to do with their char after that.

I have a solution!

Kill off the character and try something else!!

Dusty Rulz Forreva!

[Damien]

That's mainly a problem of understanding:

Illarion is not (sadly, from my view / luckily, from other people's view) focussed as much on roleplay as the RPers amongst us wanted, but on attracting a broad spectrum and with that, a bigger number of players. With this, also players who like skilling.
If it was aimed at RPers only, we'd have an account system still, and people not RPing would be still kicked off instead of watching just the ones with bad behaviour if they actually break rules.

On setting a goal from staff-side: When i suggested RP-based questions for the question system - telling story situations - they were denied with the argument "too long, too complex, not fitting". A logical answer, since these would have strongly favoured Roleplayers and thus reduced the number of players getting in, which was not wanted. Meanwhile, i gave up on trying to convince people to focus more on RP. In fact, some do not want RP at all, and i can't change that. And some like the "reward" of powergaming, i also can't change that.

So what we have is a very broad spectrum of players. Some like to RP, and they can still do that if they know someone online who usually RPs. Some like to skill and PG.
The game world now, strictly seen, counts as "RP-Encouraged", not as "RP-Enforced". Even if powergaming isn't as effective anymore.

The Advantage : Some of them may learn some RP.
Disadvantage : When i logged in over the last half year, it happened increasingly often that, when i RPed to an unknown person, it was either ignored or replied to without real RP. Not a real rule break - when i get people talking leet, i still try talking to them about that, and the most really don't know what RP is or that illarion is supposed to be about RP.

Since the only way to really get good RP relies on the players when the staff does not focus on RP, one must put work there, as a player, and not only one. That includes :
- talk to them by yourself if they have no idea of RP. Show them how it works, lead them around, show them that RP is fun.
- !gm (including their ID numbers!) Characters who PK without reason
- !gm players who talk L33t and behave disturbingly
- !gm if abuse system weaknesses (building shadows) etc.

My two cents.

[Korm Kormsen]

But some PO's and/or chars seem to quit playing Illa once their goal of maxing some skill is done. They have spent such a long time doing it, that it is possible they don't know what to do with their char after that.

I have a solution!

Kill off the character and try something else!!

LOL! ... yes, play another halfling....

[Alytys Lamar]

Oh.....

Aegohl, you decept me. i did not find anything of importance in your post, where i could heartyly disagree....

OH...
and I sign up this as well

[Aegohl]

That's mainly a problem of understanding:

Illarion is not (sadly, from my view / luckily, from other people's view) focussed as much on roleplay as the RPers amongst us wanted, but on attracting a broad spectrum and with that, a bigger number of players. With this, also players who like skilling.
If it was aimed at RPers only, we'd have an account system still, and people not RPing would be still kicked off instead of watching just the ones with bad behaviour if they actually break rules.

At the time of this writing, the server I play at has more players online than Illarion does currently. While I'm not sure on the averages at Illarion currently, I would guess that they stand about the same. The difference is that while roleplay is not enforced at the server at which I play, it *is* the norm and everyone that I'm bumping into is roleplaying. That's not to say that where I play is perfect, by any means. I just feel that they're a good example in the places where I feel Illarion has messed up above.

On setting a goal from staff-side: When i suggested RP-based questions for the question system - telling story situations - they were denied with the argument "too long, too complex, not fitting". A logical answer, since these would have strongly favoured Roleplayers and thus reduced the number of players getting in, which was not wanted. Meanwhile, i gave up on trying to convince people to focus more on RP. In fact, some do not want RP at all, and i can't change that. And some like the "reward" of powergaming, i also can't change that.

I recall this. I don't recall that the issue was that the questions were "too rp-related." Rather, I recall they were a wee bit.... advanced? I don't have to know who Zhambra has over for tea on Wednesdays to be able to fit into the storyline at Illarion. It's enough to know your own role and slowly become part of the "scenery" rather than being part of the "scenery" and forgetting your role.

That, I fear, has been the cause of some of our arguments in the past. It is my firm believe that the fun of the players matters more than the storyline because the players are many and the writers of the storyline are few. I can recall examples in the past where it was evident that this isn't how you feel, but I don't want to get into another argument with you. I know where they lead, usually to accusations that I take rp too seriously and don't want to have fun, but it's obvious that my argument above is that players should be not only allowed to have fun, but the system should be facilitating that fun (and the storyline should be also).

[Retlak]

Lastly, the "skill cap" at Illarion, is not a "skill cap" and I've never been happy with it. It punishes players for doing what they want to do. It should be the job of a game to facilitate player's fun, not punish it. If you're on during hours where there are fewer players and want to keep training so that when there is player's on you can just rp, it should be your business. Hell, if you're training instead of rping a bit because you had a bad day and want to take it out on some ogres rather than the other players, have at it!

I like this paragraph from your first post. The fact is it's pretty true that when let's say; there is a lack of players online someone might go off and train abit (Now this usually affects the very low skilled starting chars), the character will begin training, and cap within a couple of minutes, then they have nothing to do except log off and be bored. <-- Bad.

While the advanced skilled char can train hours without capping it is a terrible balance of the cap system. Infact it is punishing roleplayers (because they will have the lower skills theoretically to cap fast and have nothing to do) while the skillers reach a level when they cannot cap, and can do whatever they like without worry of being bored when there is a lack of players ig or something.


No idea if this makes sence, but i've had a drink so meh.

[Fianna Heneghan]

So, I want to say that I play on Aegohl's server too. I ~somewhat~ agree with him.

The skillgains there are also very slow at higher levels which leads to PGing there too. I have set up both games simultaneously and crafted in both games at once. With the exception of one time, I log out of the other game to play Illa because the rp is much nicer and more available here, even with fewer players online. Only once did I log out of Illa to concentrate on the other game, and I was actually RPing in Illa too, not PGing. (( sorry to the players I was RPing with ))

I think if there is going to be a skill system, we should stop using 'powergaming' like a dirty word. It's going to happen because that's what having a skill system is about. Changing the way it's set up isn't going to change the fact that PGing happens. I have said before that Illarion could take a lesson from the relaxed environment of that game, and I still believe that.

I also believe that Illa is a much nicer roleplay environment and I choose it over Aeghol's game every night of the week.

[Damien]

No, these i refer to were nothing about tea rtimes and gods. Just describing a small in-story-situation and possible ways for the character to think into, to react.

[Cuthalion]

I did not read all of this, but I mostly agree with Aegohl. What people seem to forget is that you are only strong if those around you are weaker. So when you say that the hard skillgain does not encourgae players who have made a char with a strong knight in mind, you forget that if the skillgain was easy, noone would be strong. Everyone wants to play a hero like the ones from the books, but not everyone can... It is sad, but that is the way it has to be in an morpg

I think the planned skill gain system is great. The one where you gain skill for the time spent ingame. With this system it could still take long to get strong, but you wouldnt have to train all the time.

[Korm Kormsen]

maybe, it would be an idea, to let chars start with some preset skills in the chosen profession?

as example, a char, that enters as carpenter, starts out with dark green lumbering and dark green carpentry?
(and then have any further skillgain in any skills hard enough)

that would have the side-effect, that we got no more "ignorant specialists", like every new char is now.

[Konrad Knox]

Aegohl makes a lot of sense in this one. Are you still a GM, Aegohl?

[Evan Ross]

Thanks for reviving a dead argument...

[Aegohl]

Aegohl makes a lot of sense in this one. Are you still a GM, Aegohl?

Nope. I don't even post here much anymore. =)

[Toreasa Shavonne]

If this is what a "bad day" is, or simply the "norm" for a blue skill, all it does is serve to discourage, decided to get oog
All my char wanted to do was cook something so can train a little to fight without the loss of attribute..... because that is her background. Not to be an uber fighter, just to be able to protect a little without getting ghosted. Would have preferred to RP but can't because she needs these skills for her story. The whole thing is too hard. This could be made much easier ig and allow more RP as an option also.



Is it PGing to want to have a background fullfilled for your char? I would and have gone to "train" with other chars when possible. I like the idea of being able to pick at least the start of a couple of skills that would be easier to accomplish.

[Konrad Knox]

Are you still a GM, Aegohl?

Nope. I don't even post here much anymore. =)

Isn't that amazing how people start making sense and really thinking only after they're no longer GMs?

[Magdha Tiefenerz]

Hello!

If this is what a "bad day" is, or simply the "norm" for a blue skill, all it does is serve to discourage.

Well, the skill level is one thing, the other thing are your the attributes. And another thing is the level of the item you are trying to make compared to your skill. If you have attributes that are not very good for cooking/baking and choose to cook the most complicated food your skill allows, yes, this could be the result.

Is it PGing to want to have a background fullfilled for your char? I would and have gone to "train" with other chars when possible. I like the idea of being able to pick at least the start of a couple of skills that would be easier to accomplish.

Oh dear. If you want have a skill you have to train it. Everyone who wants have some skills has to train them and I guess most of the players do this from time to time. There are times where you have a wonderful roleplay and there are times when you just train your skills. I think that a good mixture of both approaches is the key to get the most fun out of this game. Magdha is a craftswoman, so guess what she does most of the time. But if I get a chance to have some nice roleplaying I choose to follow it instead of training my skill and I pretty enjoy this approach. Oh, and you can roleplay what you are doing when you train your skills. This especially nice when it comes to craftsmanship.

With kind regards

[Cassandra Fjurin]

Why do the most of you make a character wich fits in the background and not a background which fits the character?

[Magdha Tiefenerz]

Hello!

Why do the most of you make a character wich fits in the background and not a background which fits the character?

Because most players have something in mind what they want to play? But whatever approach you choose you have the problem that you start with blue skills.

With kind regards

[Ascius]

True. When I wanted to design Ascius as a veteran I had to think about the low skills he would start with on the island.

I did two things then: Frist create a background story in which he was weakened (prison and stuff) and secondly I didn't do many conversations or #i's when I started playing but practiced a lot. When I really started *playing* my character I already had some skill, not very much, but enough to make it look real.

It's some work to begin like this, but possible. I was just sick of starting characters who are 16 years old or having a war veteran who isn't able to hold a sword.

[Cassandra Fjurin]

And why accept you not that something are not possible? Why can you accept it in some parts:

No Demon playing,
No mega powers,
No Dragons etc for players
No Chars wich are gods.

But can't accept it that chars start with no skills?
Change you character concepts not the Engine around it.

[Beldir]

So we all have to crate characters in the age of 14, who have no story to tell, because they have no experiences?

[Retlak]

Or you could just powergame a character to max skills in 3 weeks and then introduce yourself.

[AlexRose]

Psst, the skills aren't the only thing you can rp y'know, and not every 21 year old knows how to smith, craft, fight, cast, glassblow, book, read etc. etc. etc.

[Pellandria]

Sorry cass but your post is simply "stupid", all chars that come actually only are less skilled in anything than someone in real life would actually be, we are still in a kind of middleages set, that means you need to work in young age with your parents or atleast you knew some things you wouldn't know today, saying "yes its acceptable that every new player has no skills, no matter what background he or she has" its just simply...stupid, people are not asking for demon gods power, but the hell give the new ones MORE skill than just one swirlie.

Maybe all people should beginn their journey to illarion as small babys, the engine will restrikt you from anyting to do except cryieng, screaming and pooping your pants, if an older char is around you might live longer than one day, if you don't have the luck that someone stumbels on you, your char dies automaticly, how about that?

[Cuthalion]

Pell I agree, but you dont have to be so harsh.
You remind me of Samantha