Death

[Jupiter]

Well first off, NOONE dies 4 times a month. If someone does, he deserves a ban because of complete lack of fear.

Excuse me, but my char dies 4 times in two or three weeks. Two times because my PC crashed, one time it was my own fault and one time because of the stupidity of a few chars.

So don't make such a generalization. There are always exceptions.

[Miklorius]

I don't like the "find your way out of a maze"-idea, it sounds boring.

I prefer some kind of combination between increasing downtimes after death (old idea: die within X hours again, you have to stay "dead" longer) and the K.O.-system Greisling was referring to (although not in all it's details).

And you want this within the next years? Don't get me wrong but i have slightly doubts that we will get a KO System. We had one, once upon a time. But that did not work pretty well.

What did not work?

It is also needed to define how ghosting works in RP aspects:
Is your character just heavy injured (why ghost then)? Is his body destroyed and then reborn at the cross but injured?

[Pellandria]

As long as I remember the ko system involved monsters aswell, but even after going ko they could attack and we didn't have a spare graphik for ko'ed chars, means they looked like death and the time was choosen poorly, at this day we got a huge npc attack, means you had to fight one npc several times, but I still loved the system, pulling back wounded chars and heal them up was quiete nice.

[Estralis Seborian]

The char is clouded. It is a common happening for our characters. I know some staff members have said that a clouded char is "heavily injured", but this is not what the client shows us. The char is a ghost/cloud and gets "rematerialized" at the cross, that's it. No body, no "#me drags the corps to the cross" stuff necessary.

The KO-system was simply not working. I can't remember the details, but it looked like "cloud-alive-cloud-alive-cloud-alive" and was removed after a very short time for fundamental problems.

[pharse]

I don't like the "find your way out of a maze"-idea, it sounds boring.

You have no idea how it could work. If you are not able to be creative and come up with elaborate ideas or riddles then don't imply it on others aswell.

Furthermore I believe it is much more boring to get to the next cross compared to a random and dynamic maze.

[Pellandria]

but you forget that certain players may have problems with an maze, they simple can't get out of it, the main problem maybe the isometric view and that means that some simply see one big wall and get stuck.

[Nikolaus]

Hedges ?!?!

[ogerawa]

Hedges ?!?!

It won't make much different for those who are bad with maze i guess. They will walk for a bit and gets really frustrated.

If the dynamic maze you talked about was like the one in irundar, then yea... some people had trouble with that as well. I went there a couple times with different people, some just gets frustrated and took really long to get out of the maze. And in my opinion, that maze is actually rather small.

[pharse]

What about a time limit

Please think first.

[Juliana D'cheyne]

What about a time limit

Please think first.

So, instead of some getting permanently stuck or take a long time to get out of a maze, they just have to endure being bored for a supposedly "fun" game just a short time?

((If this will be ig... can we just have an option to keep the char oog a certain time instead. I would much prefer just not to play them rather then go through any type of game/maze system? I will also assume that this would be my total RP for any sickness etc. of the char, no longer a need to go to a druid I assume?))

[Greisling]

The once implemented KO system did not work - so far so good.
Though, that does not mean that any other KO-concept will fail as well.


Any systems which would clearly define the RP status of a clouded char (KO or dead) is a huge improvement the game truely needs.

My proposal of the death system (right click and kill) is quite easy to implement (as far as I can estimate) and clears this confusion up. Furthermore it adds a sphere to the game which makes the players fear of something: Who would cloud a character if he knows that in return the death of the murderer will be the answer by taking bloody revenge?


What we need is a game mechanism which defines when a character is dead and when he is just knocked out. We need a game mechanism which makes people to fear the death and to try to avoid getting knocked out.
we have dubious fire-scripts and a illness in the game - hey, why do we not create a system which is REALLY needed and has huge benefit for ALL players?

[Nitram]

hey, why do we not create a system which is REALLY needed and has huge benefit for ALL players?

Yeah yeah. Just create it, no problem at all. Got any spare Developers? ^^

[pharse]

So, let's see, Juliana D'cheyne...


Your char becomes unconscious. You are warped into that maze. You: "Oh no! How boring! I rather wait until the time limit is over.". You wait. You: "Oh no! How boring to wait! Damn those devs.".

I think every player should be able to get out of a maze...in half of the time limit? This limit is exactly for those players who get stucked (but I think not many would...)

[Greisling]

I know, it is easy to demand something like that. I know, time and capacity is limited.
Though, this is about setting priorities.

I have the feeling that a new KO system with strict rules is truely needed and has higher priority than some other stuff.
Of course, I don't have a clue what the staff currently is working on. Is it more important than steeting a basic game element of Illarion into a clear direction?
I don not know. But I know that it is worth to discuss about the importance of such a KO system - and perhaps worth to start to work on it rather than on new NPC-Quests, for example.

[Nitram]

But not more importaint compared to the newbie island

And you completly forget the amount of needed work.

Its not even slightly supported by the server --> has to be done completly
There are no graphics --> a lot of work for martin
And there is no client support --> and nop is busy at the moment and not able to do any bigger client updates. At least until next year.

Spending much time in something importaint that can't be done is not as usefull as doing something that is noch that importaint but possible to realize.

Nitram

[Greisling]

You are right, there is nothing more important than newbie island actually.
As far as I know there are only a very few people of the staff involved into newbie island, though.

Its not even slightly supported by the server --> has to be done completly
There are no graphics --> a lot of work for martin
And there is no client support --> and nop is busy at the moment and not able to do any bigger client updates. At least until next year.

I do not know much about developing. But to implement the basic idea of my draft-concept won't need any new graphics at all.
We need a script which starts after one got clouded. This script would say:
Ghost cannot move for xy seconds. Within this xy seconds evertyone is able to make right click on the ghost and use the command 'kill'. If killed=autoemote "murderer chops the head of the motionless body" PLUS teleport ghost to a lonesome island. There is a cross which ressurrects him. After yz days teleport character back to Troll's Bane/church.

Do you need to change much on the server and client to implement something like this?

[Nitram]

That right click part require client and server changes and not too less of both.

[Juliana D'cheyne]

So, let's see, Juliana D'cheyne...


Your char becomes unconscious. You are warped into that maze. You: "Oh no! How boring! I rather wait until the time limit is over.". You wait. You: "Oh no! How boring to wait! Damn those devs.".

I think every player should be able to get out of a maze...in half of the time limit? This limit is exactly for those players who get stucked (but I think not many would...)

All I am saying is, if I wanted to play a maze, puzzle, something else, I would do it. If it is insisted upon to enforce adaquete RP of a ghosting, then make it optional what the PO would do

[Avalyon el'Hattarr]

How about this:

Two fight -> one runs out of health -> fighting stance canceled -> Wounded outoemotes something like "#me falls down unconciously", being unable to move or take any action besides emoting for a X time -> effect over time is ran at every y seconds doing a roll against the wounded's char constitution with 70% chance of nothing to happen, 25% chance to recover and 5% chance to die due to bloodloss.
In the ko time, if the wounded gets attacked again, gets killed (the KO stance can be trigered at 1 health)

[Thanseus Valerian]

and each time i´ve reached 3 deaths i´ll stop fighting for the rest of the month...i´m still fearless

[ogerawa]

[sarcasm]Nah... it will only be like playing chase and run with the bad guys. Oh.. bad guys in front *runs away* No more RP fear once again... Another proposal posted, make stamina bar for people. People will have to rest after walking for so long and those who has more constitution can run longer.[/sarcasm]

[Kundra]

A and B are good chars and go hunt C and cloud him (if it resorts to Ctrl+clicking - most likely). C comes with friends to cloud A and B some other days. So why hunt in the first place?

Dont start somethin' it won't be nuthin'.

[Juniper Onyx]

In all these posts, I've read that if character A get clouded by Character B, lets punish character A with a ban, or log out for 6 hours, or even perma-death. WTF! Punish the victim??????

How about a new approach.

Suppose upon being clouded, there is no ghost, but you are teleported to Cherga's realm. There you may choose one of several 'tasks' to perform, the completion of which will earn you a reward of some money and teleported back to the mortal realm. The difficulty of the 'task' should reflect an appropriate increase in reward and how long it takes to complete. Basically, the easy 'tasks' pay less than the harder ones, but all will teleport your character back. So you choose how fast you want to come back.

Tasks may begin with something like go fetch me 20 cherries and give them to an NPC. They could increase with difficulty and sending players to more NPC's for different 'easily' obtained items such as fruits, herbs (on the ground), search skeleton bones, look at pillars or talk to other NPC's.

This way, being clouded won't be so bad, maybe even fun and rewarding. Nothing happens to the person who did the clouding except they pick up whatever is dropped as normal.

Who knows? Maybe you get more than you lost by completing a task in Cherga's realm?

To prevent someone dieing and going to Cherga's realm all the time just for the rewards, I will also suggest that all but the easiest 'task' be 'one-time' use as 'quests' are now. That way, you can complete all the tasks, but can always rely on the easiest and quickest task to get home.

Just a thought.

[Miklorius]

A huge afterlife maze/quest queue takes time and devpower and the goal was IMO that players try to get not killed resp. to increase their "fear" of dying, so players behave more providently in dangerous situations.

But you can not just punish killed characters uber-hard because there are many situations in which you can get killed (e.g. the lag on purpose fighting system).

Unfortunately, almost every more complex idea mentioned here seems to be more or less impossible according to the devs (it seems that the client/server is highly nonflexible?) ...

Actually, if your HPs fall to 0, you turn into a ghost. In RP aspects I think it must be seen as your character really is transformed into a bodiless entity between life and death. But because your time has not come yet, the gods give you your old body back at holy locations - you are alive again, but wounded (this must be official):
Your HPs are still almost zero, your physical attributes are lowered for an unknown value and amount of time (bottom end/30min? Are skills lowered, too?) and you have permanently lost some skill points (randomly?) and have dropped some items where you died.

Because K.O. systems are hard to realize, I would suggest to put in a low downtime in which you can not come back to live. If you die again within a certain period of time after resurrection, the downtime is increased and also the skill loss. To avoid reskilling, maybe make the ghosts invisible (only visible within some tiles, e.g.).

I can't think of a way at the moment where PG/PK fighters will be frightened of death and "normal" players won't get frustrated by hard death penalties. So, time penalties are the way to go.

PS: But more important is the newbie island or in general a focused development (the most people do not now on what the devs are working).

[Nitram]

The server is not unflexible. But its not very well written. The focus of the Devs who work on the server is currently to make sure it runs stable, to increase the performance and to descrease exchanged data amount between server and client ( at this way we try to reduce the lag to the minimal amount thats possible ).
And sadly we don't have that many developers who have the skill to work at the server. ( Only Cassandra Fjurin and Vilarion, are really able to do this )

The Client is pretty unflexible, since only one person ( nop ) is able to do any changes at the client. To speak exactly, only he is able to perform updates. So we can't do anything without him and he is currently and for the next time busy with his RL.

The Scripters are currently and mainly working at the Newbie Island. That would be basically done allready, but sadly our question for help got answered with a huge wave of silence. So we have to do everything on our own. That decreases the quality and increases the needed time.

The work at the new homepage is currently completly stopped to increase the development speed of the other points.

Nitram

[Djironnyma]

one reason more to solve this problem not with some quest or higher skill lose by death, witch will also nearly nothing change at the main problem.

A better solution is, to make some simple new rules, for permanent death of characters. I think follow rules make sens:

• A character, witch die in reason of a very risky or dumb action in a (non static) Quest die permanent by decision of the GM witch make the Quest.
• If a character break a law in a town IG witch can punished with the death penalty by the law of these town, the town can judge him to death.
• In agreement with a GM by a fight playerchar vs playerchar.

Sure that wouldn't help the problem at all, but i think it will help much, and it need no giant scripts or other server/client changes.

~~~

Ein Grund mehr dieses Problem nicht mit irgendwelche Quests, temporäre Atributsverlusten oder höheren Skillverlust an zu gehen, ich bezweifle sowieso das dies im Grunde genommen was ändern würde.

Eine bessere Lösung wäre es ein paar einfache neue Regeln bezüglich permanenten Tod zu machen. Folgende Regelungen fände ich sinnvoll:

• Ein Char, der wegen einer sehr riskanten oder dummen Handlung bei einer (nicht statischen) Quest stirbt , bleibt, wenn der questverantwortliche GM so entscheidet, tot.
• Wenn ein Char ein Gesetz einer Stadt bricht, auf dem die Todesstrafe steht, kann er von dieser Stadt zu Tode verurteilt werden.
• In Einverständnis mit einem GM bei einem Kampf Spielerchar gegen Spielerchar.

Natürlich löst auch diese Regeln das Problem komplett, aber ich denke es hilft zumindest ganz gut und erfordert ja wie bereits erwähnt keinen entwicklungstechnischen Aufwand.

[Saril]

Ich finde die vorgeschlagenen Regeln gut. Es sollte schon für Verbrecher einen Permatot geben. Bei der Questregellung sollte der Po aber auch mitsprechen dürfen.

[Jupiter]

Bis auf:

In Einverständnis mit einem GM bei einem Kampf Spielerchar gegen Spielerchar.

Finde ich deine Regeln sehr gut.

Bei einem Kampf Spielerchar gegen Spielerchar, sollte der betreffende PO die Entscheidung treffen.
Wobei wir hier wohl nicht vom normalen coluden reden, sondern von einem #me sticht sein Schwert nach vorne, um das Herz seines Gegenübers zu durchbohren

[Djironnyma]

Das nur der Spielerchar solche Entscheidungen Treffen kann ist aber der Hauptgrund warum so viele Chars so wenig Angst haben. Ich kann jemanden beschimpfen, verprügeln, ausrauben, verhöhnen, entehren und so weiter ohne das ich um meinen Char echte Konsequenzen fürchten muss.

Es soll ja nicht zu Aktionen kommen wie "ich bin Böse darum will ich den opfern" oder "der hat mich du blöde Sau genannt ich will ihn erdolchen". deshalb bei Spielerchar vs Spielerchar nur mit GM Zustimmung.


Überlegt doch mal ernsthaft wie ihr euch verhalten würdet, wenn ihr bei tödlichen Geschehnissen vielleicht 2 Wochen Unterrichtsstoff vergessen würdet, oder seines meinetwegen 2 Monate. Geschwindigkeitsbegrenzung? Pah! Sicherheitsgurt? Sinnlos! Klettern gehen? Aber nur ohne Seil!

Wir fürchten den Tod, weil es das absolute Ende ist (je nach Religion zumindest in dieser Welt bzw mit diesen Erinnerungen). Weil danach nix mehr kommt, finito, Sense.

Und bevor ein Char von uns (der schon weder Schmerz noch Leid im eigentlichen Sinne kennt), nicht einmal das Ende seiner Existenz als Folge seiner Handlung fürchten muss, müssen wir uns nicht über diese Masse an furchtlosen "Helden" wundern.

[Jupiter]

@ Dji

Hatte dich bei dem Punkt etwas missverstanden, jetzt ist es klar.