Problem in The Community

[Pellandria]

I could post things here about how people destroy others rp, how times were better and so on, but I doubt that I'm without guilt here anyway.
The only thing that really bothers me is this stupid ooc abuse...the constant abuse, people using ooc to let their char believe a story, that is true, but would still be strange in chars eyes and yes even there I'm not without guilt anyway, but it really is going on my nervs, that people just completly ignore things you try to rp and say "Oh you didn't powergame enough, thus your char is weak" no matter how "good" you play something.

Just for one exemple that really pisses me off ig, but mostly only concern german players, is the death of a certain char ig , my char hired a headhunter to track him down and kill him, only one person was present at this time, but I let everyone know ooc what was going on and suprise suprise every char instantly believes this person, because they ooc know that its true, this is just one of many examples, the same is with some people who abuse slow reaction times or technical flaws, but there seem to be no solution for this.

[Lamar]

Red keinen Stuss Pell.
Sowohl Nalcaryos als auch Shenandrea und noch andere Spieler waren mit dabei als der "Kopfgeldjäger" versuchte Lonfurd das erste mal zu töten. Lonfurds Vertraute wussten nur von ihm um was es ging. Ohne OOC Wissen von deiner Seite.
Und im Übrigen: Reicht es dir noch nicht dass mein Char perma-dead ist oder wieso fängst du immer wieder damit an?

[pharse]

Bitte, das gehört absolut nicht hier rein. Regelt das doch privat.

[Noradur]

das hat jetzt sofort ein ende.. das hier ist nicht das thema

[Pellandria]

Falls du mal ordentlich was lesen würdest, es ging darum wie gewisse Leute reagiert haben und alles sofort geglaubt haben das Pell es war ohne irgendwelche Beweise zu haben und wieviel Ooc Wissen soll man denn noch in das Topic im Rpg Board packen, aber egal das hat ja hier nichts mit zu tun.

[jonathan norderweiden]

diese diskussion hier ist scheinbar sehr wichtig. schade, dass all diejenigen, die der neuen sprache nur rudimentär mächtig sind, nicht mitdiskutieren können. ach ja und ich zähle mich da dazu.

[martin]

diese diskussion hier ist scheinbar sehr wichtig. schade, dass all diejenigen, die der neuen sprache nur rudimentär mächtig sind, nicht mitdiskutieren können. ach ja und ich zähle mich da dazu.

Dein Beitrag ist auch nicht unwichtig. Schade, dass rund 90% unserer community ihn NICHT verstehen koennen.
Auch schade, dass 10% unserer community den Rest nicht verstehen koennen. Aber wenn ich in Mathematik gut aufgepasst hab, heisst das, dass wir hier ein Verhaeltnis 1:9 haben. Ich schaetze, du bist irgendwie auf die Seite einer Minderheit gefallen.

Nimm dich selbst an der Nase.

Martin

[Djironnyma]

Dein Beitrag ist auch nicht unwichtig. Schade, dass rund 90% unserer community ihn NICHT verstehen koennen.

Ich denke du übertreibst. Die einzige mir bekannte statistische Erhebung dazu sagt lediglich aus, dass knapp 90% der Spieler Englisch verstehen, nicht das sie kein Deutsch verstehen würden.

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=23466

[jonathan norderweiden]

dann geht es mir wie den halblingen auf gobait.... minderheiten vereinigt euch.

Und wäre es jetzt doch möglich die oben geführte diskussion zusammenzufassen.... d.h. wenn jemand dazu lust und laune hat.

ich wäre ein dankbarer leser.

und ja... ich nehme mich an der nase.... so gut es eben geht.

[Retlak]

Regarding ooc knowledge; Yes some things get annoying but you can't change much by telling people.

I believe people remember the event of Siltaris' death where the killers made sure she died without anyone to see them. Chars ig wonder who the murderers are for a week then one of us post in the offtopic about doing it. Instantly loads of chars accuse the murderers.

To be honest i doubt scenario's like this would ever change because people find it more fun to use ooc knowledge than to roleplay being helpless about a situation.

[Cuthalion]

Well, all I know is that the game gets less and less fun.

What I think could/should be done:

The GMs could controll the ammount of evil chars.

Punishments for death should indeed be made stricter. (perhaps making the char unplayable for a week or so, as well as a big skill loss)

More "peaceful" quests.

Smaller quests, not involving 40 people. When they must be big, the gms should have some way of shutting chars up. That way one would actually hear what the GM char sais.

The GMs should be stricter conserning bad rp. Even us who very well know what bad rp is, do it more and more.


Basically the gms could get stricter, and get more power.

[Jupiter]

Or the players learn to play with each other and not against each other...

[Kevin Lightdot]

I havn't read the whole thread/thing/stuff but:

Later in the quest, when that guy, who was a complete stranger to almost 100% of the characters told them to follow, almost none of the characters showed the slightest bit of distrust, but just followed him without any questions.

/signed
that was the point when I left, thinking: what the heck, nobody wants to know, who that guy is telling them "Everyone wanting to fight til death follow me now" ... there was one person who asked something like "Who are you anyway" and some other questions were asked, but not answered, but well, I decided not to follow that quest further, period.

If we are talking about the fire elementalist, Brelogar, some actually do remember him, he was around during the lich wars saving our asses with fire.
The lizard, well, noble cause, plus I missed most of that due to lag and figuired I might aswell.



No chars fearing.. yeah.. that was always rather annoying, but also unable to stop in general.
Heck even I sort of do it with Kevin, though he has in my opinnion had enough chance to learn to controle himself more and bluff his way out.


Also.. bandits.. well, not in tb enough to really judge that I guess.
I hardly find to be approached by such a stranger though.

Also, noobs running around being noobs, well yeah, it happens, some are absolute asstards, but live with that for now I say, it doesn't bother me too hugely, atleast not most of the noobs.

People ignoring people, well yeah, that happens, lol, some cause they don't like the char, some cause they just don't know them I guess. It happens, always will.
Same for ooc knowlage and whatever stuff

peaceful yet still fun roleplaying atmosphere...
Not everyone likes this, I do a little, sometimes, but not all the time, just like many others..

some people who want constant action/fighting/chances to prove your pged skills/etc... will complain that there is too much peace...

Arr, Kevin is NOT one of the strong chars ig, but I still like fighting.


Quests for certain places only?
Some places would always be crapped about getting better quests, or at a better time for a resident of it, imagine most quests in some town which holds mostlu americans are at their times, but a char of mine would live there, it'd leave me crapped.

There will always be gm's who like this or that town more and quest there for whatever reason, I am sure that would happen, thus I think this suggestion is pretty shitty.

Oh and for not playing the char for a week after death and numbered lives of a character...
Crap.

Thar, I've had my not completely polite say, and must now do some homework/

[Fooser]

Martin is right, roleplay was always better yesterday than it is today. But it really isn't. People have complained about powergaming for years, people have complained about players being skill focused for years, and complained about how RP quality has gone down for years. This occurred even when there was an account system. Some people even left when the account system was removed because they apparently couldn't deal with it not being there for some reason, and yet there was no apocalypse when it was taken down. So the usual response to the RP quality thing is to put more restrictions on. Being stricter and putting more restrictions on has never worked, and I don't see why anyone thinks that will suddenly change. Skills were made harder to earn and a skill cap was put in place, and still everyone says there is powergaming. Being up tight pricks about everyones RP isn't going to inspire new players to come, or for people to even stay who are already here. The only bad RP is no RP, from there you have a continuum of player types that ranges from one extent to another, and everyone is somewhere in between. The problem is that people of these different types don't get along (each viewing their own way as being better), and when there is a large quest that forces them all to come together, that's generally when the most complaining happens. They don't like the way the other players on the RP continuum play so there are indirect complaints about it. So instead of beating the dead horse of being strict and restrictive, maybe try something else for a change?

[Thorwald]

PO Jonathan Norderweiden ich hab es nach inzwischen fast 6 Jahren aufgegeben darauf zu hoffen das wichtige Themen zweisprachig geführt werden .

[Nitram]

Das ist leider der Schaden der Minderheit.

83 von 100 Spielern in Illarion sprechen nur englisch. Ein statistisch nicht erfassbarer Großteil der restlichen 17 Spieler ist in der Lage in beiden Sprachen zu sprechen.

Die meisten englischsprachigen Spieler verwenden Google um zumindest grobe Übersetzungen der wichtigen Themen zu erhalten. Google kann auch von Englisch nach Deutsch übersetzen.

Nitram

[Estralis Seborian]

*hugs Fooser*
Listen to what this man says, he really understood the world. Sure, us GMs could be a bit more strict, but is that what you want? We already spy on you all the time, logging every word your characters say and keep track of all kinds of actions. Personally, I hate banning because this means I forbid a player to play this game. But it has to be done from time to time.

What troubles me a bit is that us GMs and devs are regarded as "the others". Don't you think all of us (erm, except martin) play this game frequently with our own characters? We are players, too, and we want to increase the fun everybody has. Keep this in mind and support us in our effort and do not lay back, take your remote control and your popcorn and say "entertain me!".

Edit: Argh, my spelling is horrible today!

[Thorwald]

Tja drum Interessiert mich das Forum auch in weiten Teilen nicht mehr und das Spielgeschehen an sich , zumindest alles was sich außerhalb von Silberbrand abspielt und Silberbrand nicht betrifft . Weil 95 % der Spieler in Silberbrand sprechen und lesen am liebsten ihre Muttersprache und die ist halt deutsch .
Auch beteiligen sich im Forum von Silberbrand zu sogar 100 % nur deutschsprachige Spieler .

[Miklorius]

Or the players learn to play with each other and not against each other...

Yes, that's it. If more players (staff?) would not only look what is good for them and their characters, but acting a bit more in benefit for the whole community (which means: considering before doing something), everything would be better.

I believe people remember the event of Siltaris' death where the killers made sure she died without anyone to see them. Chars ig wonder who the murderers are for a week then one of us post in the offtopic about doing it. Instantly loads of chars accuse the murderers.

Eh, wrong. There were witnesses and some "insiders" talked IG about it.

PS: Tschuldigung, dass ich nur Englisch schreibe, aber es ist mir einfach zu viel Aufwand, jedes Posting zweisprachig zu verfassen. Maschinelle Übersetzung Englisch => Deutsch klappt ganz gut, z.B. Babelfish oder bei Google.

[Taeryon Silverlight]

Also zu der Sache mit dem "keine Angst haben", Noradur. Ich hoffe ich habe mit Taeryon nicht übertrieben bei dem "Gorf", aber Taeryon ist Magier geworden, weil in seiner Kindheit seine Familie ausgelöscht wurde und er nichts dagegen tun konnte. Jetzt, wo er endlich zumindest ein wenig "Macht" hat um das zu beschützen was im lieb ist, wird er natürlich nicht gleich wegrennen wenn was passiert. Da ich allerdings diese "Ich weiß dass du ein GM bist, du wirst mir nix tun mit dem Char"-Leute auch nicht sonderlich inspirierend finde, habe ich versucht eine gute und zu meinem Charakter passende Mischung zu finden. Er hat versucht nach Außen hin gelassen zu wirken, ich habe aber immer wieder emotes eingebaut wie "#me's Knie schlottern leicht, aber sein Gesicht zeigt Entschlossenheit...". Das Problem damit ist aber, dass gewisse Spieler Taeryon nicht mehr als Magier ernst nehmen, wenn er "Gefühle zeig". Ich erlebe es fast täglich, dass Chars Taeryon anreden als wäre er ein kompletter Vollidiot mit der Begründung: "Du zeigst Wut, Angst (oder was auch immer), du verhältst dich nicht wie ein Magier und ich werd dich deshalb auch nicht wie einen behandeln". Das bestätigt einen nicht gerade darin, seinen Charakter auf aufwühlende Ereignisse Gefühlsregungen zu zeigen. Auch kommt es oft vor, dass Charaktere, die keine Ahnung haben wovon sie reden, oder Taeryon teilweise noch nie "in Aktion" gesehen haben, Taeryon nicht ernst nehmen weil sie sagen er könne ihnen eh nichts tun, weil deren Spieler wissen, dass Taeryon nicht gerade die besten Skills hat.

Zu dem angesprochenen Problem mit der Sprachbarriere kann ich eigentlich nur sagen, dass die Spieler dann eben nicht gleich flüchten sollten, wenn ein RP nicht in ihrer Muttersprache stattfindet. Und ich meine damit sowohl englischsprachige, wie auch deutschsprachige Leute. Ich weiß nicht wie andere "zweisprachige" es handhaben, aber bei RPs, bei denen jemand anwesend ist der nur englisch spricht und/oder einer, der nur deutsch spricht, versuche ich meistens zu übersetzen. Wenn es nötig ist teilweise auch ooc. Ich weiß nicht wie gut ich daran bin, aber ein gutes Beispiel war die Versammlung in der Rose, bei der ich Taeryon für Isilwen alles Gesagte übersetzen hab lassen. Wenn mehrere Spieler soetwas zumindest versuchen würden, wäre das Problem mit der Sprache schon wesentlich geringer denke ich.

(ich weiß das kommt nach meinem Text über das Sprachproblem jetzt besonders dämlich, aber ich habe keine Zeit das zu übersetzen. Das werd ich morgen tun)

[Damien]

One could say, the quality of RP was very low in the beginning of illarion. But we still had a lot of fun, everone knew the other players, because we were few.
The most newbies were "catched" and teached by another player, teaching them Roleplay too. And of course, sending them to hack wood or mine for getting some coins and for teaching them more. It was a win-win for both sides, except for some who overdid it and "enslaved" their newbies.
It was like : Looking on the online list, and : "Oh look ! A Newbie !"
Gosh, there even was a whole player group lurking and waiting to teach newbies.

Then, players became more, and slowly more, and roleplay quality degraded, slowly.
So the account system was made. Another main reason for the account system was that we were able to keep some very persistant PKers and rulebreakers out of the game that way, too.

Then, we had slightly more players again, and the RP quality also decreased somewhat. I think it was because of some "elitist" groups who were stupid and who kept complaining about everything and everyone, and who talked weak-minded staff members into giving them items and boosts for "RP reasons". But still, it was possible to login, go into the middle of Trool's Bane, and roleplay with people you never met before.

When the Account system was disabled, the slight decrease of RP definitely became a continuous decrease, slowly leading to where we are now : We still have a few of the "elitist" people. And if we log in, it can happen that our RP is ignored or even laughed at by non-RP-people.

Solutions ?
The only one i see is two servers, or one with two worlds, one for RP and the other for gaming and LEET talk. I myself am only playing on a few places on the map, if i want RP. That can work also. Sometimes.

[Taeryon Silverlight]

*Sich angesprochen fühl*
@Taer: Silas tut das nur, weil er es lustig findet, mit Taer zu beefen... Und weil er nicht viel von Taer's Ansichten hält.
Das ist alles ^^

Du warst damit ganz sicher nicht angesprochen. Silas ist ein Magier und weiß dass er gefährlicher ist als Taeryon. Er hat jedes Recht ihn nicht ernst zu nehmen. Ich spreche da mehr von Lehrlingen, die noch nichtmal eine Rune haben oder Kriegern, die nun wirklich absolut keine Ahnung haben wie mächtig der Magier ist der vor ihnen steht, bevor er ihnen zeigt was er kann.

[Kevin Lightdot]

One could say, the quality of RP was very low in the beginning of illarion. But we still had a lot of fun, everone knew the other players, because we were few.
The most newbies were "catched" and teached by another player, teaching them Roleplay too. And of course, sending them to hack wood or mine for getting some coins and for teaching them more. It was a win-win for both sides, except for some who overdid it and "enslaved" their newbies.
It was like : Looking on the online list, and : "Oh look ! A Newbie !"
Gosh, there even was a whole player group lurking and waiting to teach newbies.

Then, players became more, and slowly more, and roleplay quality degraded, slowly.
So the account system was made. Another main reason for the account system was that we were able to keep some very persistant PKers and rulebreakers out of the game that way, too.

Then, we had slightly more players again, and the RP quality also decreased somewhat. I think it was because of some "elitist" groups who were stupid and who kept complaining about everything and everyone, and who talked weak-minded staff members into giving them items and boosts for "RP reasons". But still, it was possible to login, go into the middle of Trool's Bane, and roleplay with people you never met before.

When the Account system was disabled, the slight decrease of RP definitely became a continuous decrease, slowly leading to where we are now : We still have a few of the "elitist" people. And if we log in, it can happen that our RP is ignored or even laughed at by non-RP-people.

Solutions ?
The only one i see is two servers, or one with two worlds, one for RP and the other for gaming and LEET talk. I myself am only playing on a few places on the map, if i want RP. That can work also. Sometimes.

Our playersbase is WAAAY to small for that, isn't it?

[Nitram]

Kevin got the point.

We have not enougth staffmembers, players, time and ressources for 2 game servers. End of discussion.

[Werner von Mintraching]

Kevin got the point.

We have not enougth staffmembers, players, time and ressources for 2 game servers. End of discussion.

Ich denke nicht dass zwei Server notwendig wären.
In RL gibt es auch Bereiche wo die eine Sprache sprechen und andere Bereiche die die andere Sprache sprechen. Sowas nennt man oft LÄNDER.
Wer den Bereich eines anderen Landes betritt, hat dann einen dabei der der Landessprache mächtig ist oder lernt sie selbst.
Nur mal eben als Anmerkung.

[Jupiter]

Kevin got the point.

We have not enougth staffmembers, players, time and ressources for 2 game servers. End of discussion.

Ich denke nicht dass zwei Server notwendig wären.
In RL gibt es auch Bereiche wo die eine Sprache sprechen und andere Bereiche die die andere Sprache sprechen. Sowas nennt man oft LÄNDER.
Wer den Bereich eines anderen Landes betritt, hat dann einen dabei der der Landessprache mächtig ist oder lernt sie selbst.
Nur mal eben als Anmerkung.

Mit dem Problem, dass die unterscheidung zwischen alter und neuer Sprache ein notwendiges Übel ist. Die eigentlichen Sprachen in Illarion sind die Rassensprachen.

[Vern Kron]

Ok, so your complaining about bad roleplay. You blame it on many things, noobs, too many baddies, too peaceful, to violent, underpopulated, overpopulated areas...the list could go on and on. So let's just save a bunch of time, instead of looking for the exact CAUSE, which there probably is more than one, and lets find a solution.
My suggestion, DEFINE GOOD ROLEPLAY!
We know what is bad, ooc, saying im new help plz, l33t speak, on and on. So what is exactly good roleplay? Even if I follow the rules of what you say, that is still rather broad. More so, what if upon log in, you had to answer a question from the roleplay guide, that would prove you actually read it? I know this would probably be very difficult to implement, but it may be worth it.

[Damien]

Sure, the result of two worlds would be : More database, more maintenance, more development, more work, more players on both.
At the drawback of : player numbers on both servers in the beginnning.
And still, we would have a PK-Problem on one server and the "i-am-so-elitary-that-i-dont-rp-with-you" problem on the other. Well.
As you see, the Staff is above its limits already, proved by Nitram.

Therefore, there#s only one option left.
Since the staff cannot influence or control these things, especially not game atmosphere, not with all the really good new GMs who are active now, there's just the following option :

1. use the !gm function more, when someone does not RP or misbehaves.

2. form a big group with the goal of catching newbies, welcoming them and teaching them RP and the game mechanics. the bigger the group, the better the chance for 1-3 people "guarding" the newbie entrance area 24/7.

From my view, the only thing that could make Illarion playable again.
I've been in the staff for a while, and even in times where you are busy with such things through all free time you have, there's always something else happening, always someone on MSN who has a problem or who wants to discuss something, and there's always more newbies than you can react to.
Therefore :
Don't expect the staff to do it, they can't. They could not if they were three times more people.
Don't expect anyone else to do it.
Do it yourself, as players. there is noone else who can. Group together, the more, the better. Then, you will be able to achieve a LOT, and you can then raise the ingame atmosphrere and increase the RP understanding a hundred times more than ten GMs could with banning.

[Cuthalion]

Soloution 3: Everyone wanting to rp, come to VanimaXD

Edit: All ELVEN chars.

[pharse]

As soon as there is the newbie island, some player chars could be given an admin tool in order to warp to the newbie island. Or even now this could be implemented with little effort, that one can warp to a newbie.

This midday for example I saw on the online list a newbie (and only 4 other chars online...), so I logged in but I didn't found the char.