Male/Female Restrictions

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 4:12 am

Greetings!

It seems strange to me that there seems to be little difference at all to the technical side of the gameplay whether you choose to be a male or a female in illarion. I propose that certain things be available for each gender and not to the other. For example, dresses could only be work by females. Helpful comments only.
Thank you!
-Elaralith

Sir Gannon · Post by **Sir Gannon** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 4:13 am

I dont know it was funny when reda was trying to get me to wear a dress for 10 gold. Hahahah And no i didnt.

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 8:51 am

One of the most.. disturbing.. things I have seen on line was while in beta of Ultima Online seeing 3 men with full beards wearing dresses. It seems the dress graphics also included a womans.. umm... endowments.

It was just... creepy.

I wouldn't have much problem with disabling men wearing dresses.

Any comments?

Adano Eles · Post by **Adano Eles** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 8:59 am

What about sick minds who like wearing womans clothes?
As I stated in the other thread, Yes/ no restrictions are something which would cause limitations which cannot be explained ingame.

"I want a dress." "You're a man." "I know." "You can't wear a dress." "Why?" "It wouldn't fit you." "Then taylor one which fits me." "No, I cannot." "Why?" "Uhm.....

Since we don't actually see the clothes of a char we don't need to fear male chars with female curves. It's a matter of rileplaying what kind of cloth someone wears. If some male likes to wear dresses, let him. His reputation will be destroyed soon when everybody realizes his sickness.

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:04 am

I don't think that such.. sickness.. belongs in Illarion. But that is personal feelings.

Comments?

Quain · Post by **Quain** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:22 am

I think that you should leave the ability to wear things as it is and not change it to gender specific. Short of sickness there could be legitimate reasons for guys to wear dresses, things like deception (pretending to be a female to get into wherever), or amusement (I can't think of a example how, but there is one floating about in my head how it could fit in for amusement...). It's a interesting idea, but if you run it out a little further you run into problems. Things like: are you going to stop women from wearing pants because they are women? What about those who are mercenaries and fighters? Anyways, I don't see a real reason to remove it, with a application system in place it should weed out most of the people who might do it pointlessly or without reason.

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 7:59 pm

It would be realistic for guys to wear dresses, I don't know why it is so 'sick' its just clothes. And though I argue this way I DO NOT wear ladies clothes in game or in RL, just to set the records straight. For example if you had a guy who was hit over the head with a shovel, he could lose his mind and believe he was a woman even though he had the exterior organs of a male he could be mentally damaged and believe he was a woman. But I dont really mind if this restriction is placed, it wont affect me.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 8:09 pm

It's pretty pointless to do extra work to remove something you can't see people wearing anyways, and like they say it is possible for a man to have a reason to wear a dress or disguise as a woman.

Niniane · Post by **Niniane** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:24 pm

I would tend to agree with Quain in that men should be allowed to wear dresses because there are a few role-playing situations where that would be needed. Also if you say that men can't wear dresses then it wouldn't be fair to let women wear pants and or a shirt or even heavy armor regardless of the characters strength and this would lead to a very sexist limitation placed on women and their possible roles in illarion. There were a few women who were warriors and many who were unable to afford dresses or that would rather wear a more comfortable garb while working, among other reasons for allowing these items to be worn by women as well as feminine clothing worn by men in real life and it should be possible in illarion to do so as well because realism is our ultimate goal. For this reason I don't think there should be technical limitations on what a character can or can not wear based on their sex as that would drastically limit the vast possibilities currently offered to us all and many have yet to be explored and it would be a travesty to exclude any role-playing possibilities for the good role-players because we're worried of what the bad role-players will do. Just because a person is accepted now and has passed the account system doesn't mean they cannot be removed once they prove they cannot interact in a half way decent manner. I think this is a better way to ensure that the role-play and player actions are of a level that can be deemed realistic and acceptable instead of programming in player restrictions based on a narrow view of what is acceptable when just about any option can be acceptable if it is done so in role-playing and imaginative fashion.

Restrictions such as these, sex based as well as race based should be done by each individual player and not done by the programmers, in my opinion. It's well documented on moonsilver what the individual characteristics of each race are and if someone wishes to play a role outside of these standards then they should have a good background story for why but it should be possible. This is the same for most restrictions. It makes better sense to rely on the individual players to restrict their own characters to make them realistic. If they can't do this then they are probably not going to fit into the illarion world and be weeded out over time.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:07 pm

@Separdum *g* I agree, such sickness does not belong in illarion at all!
@Dyluck You cannot see clothing right now, but proposals are for the future and who knows maybe you will be able to see clothes in the future.
@Quain and Niniane Read this...
I see your point in that you want freedom for people to choose what they wear...but here is what I propose: How about having clothing etc. like dresses have some use like being a luxury item or increasing a certain ability...imagine! Then having male/female restrictions would be useful and it would make sense ( as well as preventing sick-minded people from doing such things). Then there would be a defined difference between males and females in illarion besides the graphical aspect, as they would only be able to wear certain clothings that affected them in different ways. As for people who are male and want to wear female clothings(and vice versa) they can use the "#me" functions to roleplay that.

Quain · Post by **Quain** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:24 pm

How about having clothing etc. like dresses have some use like being a luxury item or increasing a certain ability...imagine! Then having male/female restrictions would be useful and it would make sense

Alright that's ok, but you really didn't address the issue brought up about the fact that people might want to use opposite clothing for roleplay. Restricting it removes that possibility, and since (at least currently) there is a account system in it will (or should) remove anybody doing it pointlessly, and unless that system is going to be removed and everyone let in I think it's kind of pointless to put these limits in.

Then there would be a defined difference between males and females in illarion besides the graphical aspect

I am wondering why you think that is important. Other than societal ones there aren't great differences in real life. I think making huge forced differences isn't a good way to go, it makes it less realistic, not more so.

Niniane · Post by **Niniane** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:29 pm

I think this is a bad idea for the fact that if you're going to be role-playing the wearing of a dress as a man and in the future you are able to see graphics this wont work because if you're technically unable to wear a dress yet you say you are you really wont be wearing a dress at all. If there are men who want to wear dresses then they should be able to for any good role-playing reason and even being 'sick-minded' as you say if role-played is a good reason. I like the idea of race-specific items as each race would have different technologies and such but sex related items wouldn't be as specific because a human could make and wear a dress regardless of whether they are male of female. Each race would create items but either sex could use them. You have to allow for total possibilities here. If there ever are dresses that give some sort of added bonus just as a shirt would then if a man wished to look like a fool in order to do this they should. Not only for the bonus but also for the ability to appear as a woman in disguise. Emoting that you're wearing a dress wouldn't be very realistic if you were not wearing a dress. Or not wearing armor and using '#me is wearing armor'. That would be the same as saying '#me is 28 feet tall'. The differences between the sexes now are not in abilities but in how the player portrays them. Men generally act in one way and women in another. This is the reason this is a role-playing game and not some other hack and slash game where you select a character in order to get certain benefits that they yield. You select a character you create in your mind. In your mind alone and not in the minds of others and you weave this character of yours into the tapestry that makes up life in the realm of illarion in this case.

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:35 pm

I don't like the idea of having all these restrictions, two straight topics about restrictions. Yes there should be differences between the two, minor things like dresses, nothing big, it's taking away peoples rights to do things.

Niniane · Post by **Niniane** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:46 pm

Dresses are a 'big thing', Fooser. If your character doesn't want to ever wear a dress then I can see how you could come to that conclusion but why should it be restricted from other males who wish to do so for a good reason? The same goes for females who want to wear armor or shirts. You yourself should place the restriction on your own character and know that since you're a male you wouldn't wear a dress unless you had some out of the ordinary reason to do so. It's that simple. But the option MUST be there or there will gradually be only a single role each person will have the opportunity to play.

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:22 am

as well as preventing sick-minded people from doing such things

If you mean someone is roleplaying a char who is mentally incorrect then it would be better roleplay to act this out. If you mean a man who wears womens clothes is sick minded I stringly disagree. Sure it is unusual and a lot of us find it strange, but really ... a dress is made out of the same materials as any man's clothing, it just looks different and has a different colour, I never understood why a man would dress like a woman, but I wouldnt go as far as saying they were sick, it's more unusual.

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 1:46 am

Okay, i am not reading Niniane's long posts because it is a waste of time, not to offend Niniane, But what about kilts? What about someone who wants to wear a kilt? That is similar to a dress.

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 4:27 am

Erm, actually kilts and dresses are not very alike. a kilt is the tartan cloth wrapped around the waist (and sometimes over the shoulder of the wearer), dresses tend to be more elaborate as they are many cloths sewed together.

Crocket · Post by **Crocket** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 6:15 am

I don't think we need this kind of restriction.

There could be many rp reasons why a man would want to wear a dress.
just a few:

-A man is knocked unconcious and everything he owns is stollen, even his clothes. A kind woman comes along and all she has to offer to him to cover himself is her extra dress.....

-A thief is almost caught in the act of picking someones pocket. As he is running from his victim he grabs the first thing he can find off of a taylors wagon to desguise himself and it's a dress....

I could go on and on.

@Paul
I agree Niniane's posts are rather lengthy aren't they?

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 11:24 pm

Yes Niniane, cut down on your posts.

. Anyway, i know kilts and dresses are different, but as there are no kilts, dresses could be a good substitute. Also, if you restrict what you can wear, it will be too much like RS

. Runescape restricted what armour you could wear. also, some more rp reasons for men wearing a dress:

Plays (men used to have to play women in shakespeare plays ((a little after this game's year, though )) )
for some kind of cult of ritual
as a joke

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 1:00 am

All these posts sound reasonable.

So, no restrictions on sex for armor/clothes.

John Laffing · Post by **John Laffing** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 1:08 am

I think I would agree with you, Serpardum, and everyone else that thinks that there should be no restrictions on what you can wear.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 3:29 am

Hm I still believe that if there were any reason for a male or a female to wear clothes not appropriate for their particular gender they should just use the #me functions and roleplay it out! Niniane you contradict yourself, you say that "not everything must be technical" and then you say "males/females should be able to technically wear whatever they want". Well...if males and females each had their own set of clothings the clothings could be given different attributes in accordance...take this into consideration. For example, there could be a "wedding dress"....if males coud wear it too it would kind of lose its meaning.

Niniane · Post by **Niniane** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:50 am

The meaning of that is that not all restrictions should be enforced through the programming, through the technical aspect of illarion but should rather be restricted through the actions and behaviors of each individual person and their own discretion as to what they should wear. That each person should be allowed to wear anything they want as they are now, which is technically possible and we should trust in the players to do this because if they've gotten into the game they have some shred of an idea of how to role-play and what realism is. If they do not they will be removed and because of this many of the proposed imposed restrictions are only limitations for the good role-players and not needed to take away possible abuses of technical advantages by the bad role-players as they will be removed with time.

I'm sorry I used the words with double meaning. Technically in this sense means not only that it is possible because of the programming allowing it to be (as it does and should) but that it is a possibility to wear anything you want in real life and therefore should be so in the game.

That was the meaning of 'technically' I intended in this case, that it is actually physically possible to wear the other sexes clothes in the game on your body, not because of the programming but this technical programming is what allows it. So in that way you were correct that I technically did contradicted myself but my meaning is now more clear. The people that wear the wrong sexes clothing are looked at as 'freaks' by most people in real life unless there is a good reason for it and that would be the case in illarion.

As for the wedding dress, it was stated before that this could be used as a disguise or an escape mechanism and shouldn't be limited just to preserve some attributes that it might lend. These would only be temporary for the period that the garment was worn and if role-played properly this would be for a short period of time. Any added bonus it would grant would be minor in any case and shouldn't be restricted because the idea of a man wearing a dress is absurd to you. It would have to be done correctly and could be done correctly in many ways and this is why it must be possible.

Using the #me command to make others realize you're wearing a dress is unrealistic if you're not wearing a dress. Because. You're not wearing a dress! If in the future you're able to see the clothing you're wearing and someone says '#me is wearing a dress' when you can obviously see they're not then in all actuality you've taken the possibility of wearing the dress away. You would think the person was insane (the person not the character). Role-playing they're wearing a dress when in fact they're not and you can see this is the same as role-playing a human is a dragon and that their breath turns everything to gold. It's not realistic and therefore making sex-specific-restrictions on clothing would take away realism and hurt role-play when our motive should be to add realism and thus help role-play.

The point is mute anyway as Serpardum already stated that any sexed person can wear any type of clothing in the future. There is no point in continuing the argument any further. I just wanted to clear up the air of confusion around my mistaken words. Sorry for this.

John Laffing · Post by **John Laffing** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:56 am

((this is going off topic, but geez, you peoples write tooooooooooo much!

))

Crocket · Post by **Crocket** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:36 pm

I didn't know I was logging on to read a novel.

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:58 pm

They write a lot because they have a lot to say and/or explain. They dont post petty little one sentance posts that have NOTHING to do with the post. For example, Crocket said:

I didn't know I was logging on to read a novel.

Nice one! Just keep it to yourself, I am sick of seeing a small group of people wasting space with off topic and insignificant posts. If you cant think of anything to wrtie about the topic, don't write! I wish someone could punish these people, like make their graphics in game have a stupid hat for a week, or just remove them from being able to post.. THAT would shut them up!

Back to the topic: I disagree that clothes should only be able to be worn by one gender, it is as Niniane said, unrealistic. It is possible for people to dress in different clothes so it should be possible. I don't know what the worry is for wanting these unrealistic proposals put in place because just how many people would cross dress? I doubt anyone would unless it was a fancy dress party and you were supposed to, now there's an idea!

Crocket · Post by **Crocket** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 5:05 pm

@Hermie
I had one sentence off topic, lets see how much you had off topic.

They write a lot because they have a lot to say and/or explain. They dont post petty little one sentance posts that have NOTHING to do with the post. For example, Crocket said:
Quote:
I didn't know I was logging on to read a novel.

Nice one! Just keep it to yourself, I am sick of seeing a small group of people wasting space with off topic and insignificant posts. If you cant think of anything to wrtie about the topic, don't write! I wish someone could punish these people, like make their graphics in game have a stupid hat for a week, or just remove them from being able to post.. THAT would shut them up!

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 7:49 pm

This topic I believe is closed. The opinions of both sides have been presented, and a conclusion drawn. Crocket, the last thing anyone needs to do is waste time reading your private war with Hermie.

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 10:37 pm

I thought Serpardum aready said:

All these posts sound reasonable.

So, no restrictions on sex for armor/clothes.

Why are we still arguing? And i am NOT reading Niniane's post. Way too long.

Niniane · Post by **Niniane** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 12:19 am

Paul Laffing, if you have nothing to contribute to the idea being debated then don't say anything. Your one-sentence remarks are extremely annoying and useless. You do nothing but spam the boards. You add nothing. No insight. No new ideas. No reform to current ideas. Nothing!

If you can't control yourself and just have to post these posts about how you don't like to read other peoples posts because they're filled with useful information and that takes too much of your time then I suggest you don't post anything at all. I would also like to ask if a moderator could suspend the board account of Paul Laffing if this behavior continues. He has nearly 500 posts the last time I checked in only a month or two. This is ridiculous. Something needs to be done and if he can't control himself then someone needs to control him. Thank you.

There are a few others on these boards who can't control their urge to spam the boards that should be dealt with but Paul Laffing is by far the most prominent and most abusive of their privilege of posting. Hopefully something can be done to limit this.[/u]

Illarion.org

Male/Female Restrictions

Male/Female Restrictions

I'd say...

Hmmmm