Okay, this subject was mentioned countless times but no action was taken as far as I know. I also know there will possibly be a new skilling system, but that's far in the future I can believe. Therefore I'd like the following to be considered by all.
Please note that the following is more addressed towards fighting, since I have never dedicated a char to crafts, although it may apply too.
Current situation
You need to spend ridiculous hours to train, especially at higher levels. And I am seeing numerous examples of players highly bothered by this, many who can't participate in certain events IG or "dangers" since their chars are weak since they don't want to "waste" long hours training.
How can it be improved?
Certainly, simply reducing the time it takes to gain skills isn't the solution, as we will have numerous strong chars in no time, especially powergamers.
Therefore the following is what I propose:
Characters can train for maximum 30 minutes (or 1 hour?), but they will gain skills faster than the current rate. I think, 3 months (or perhaps 4 months?) of daily training (That is around 90 (or 120) days of training) should earn about 75% of the trained skill (maybe up to this point, levelling can be even too -> Meaning, it won't take longer to level at higher levels). From this point onwards, it should take perhaps another 4 or 5 months to get to or close to 100% (to distinguish old chars).
One last thing. We know there are players who first want their char to reach a certain level in their skills before roleplaying. Therefore, after that 30 minutes of training, the skill gaining rate doesn't drop down to 0 (you gain no more skills), but perhaps just a little slower then the current so they'll still have that option.
Conclusion
Half an hour of training with this method will be equivalent to hours of training with the current system, but still does not let chars get too strong too early. Also, this does not prevent those who want their chars skilled first before roleplaying from having their ways since, I think, we don't want to lose such players neither.
Anyone agrees on this? Something is unclear? Maybe I'm wrong in some places?
@staff: Is this method possible and trivial enough not to take too long to implement?
Learning.
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abcfantasy
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Djironnyma
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abcfantasy
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I didn't understand you well. Are you asking why must we want a high skill?
If that is so, I can answer. Say I want to roleplay a knight, and leave him at low skill because I'm tired to spend hours of training. Sure, I can roleplay and have fun but when there's trouble, it's most likely completely useless to even fight. Foes will take you as a joke to being a knight, and you can't show thme otherwise or do anything.
Sorry though if I misunderstood you.
If that is so, I can answer. Say I want to roleplay a knight, and leave him at low skill because I'm tired to spend hours of training. Sure, I can roleplay and have fun but when there's trouble, it's most likely completely useless to even fight. Foes will take you as a joke to being a knight, and you can't show thme otherwise or do anything.
Sorry though if I misunderstood you.
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Pellandria
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As good proposals for a new skill system (time or rp based) can't be impleted yet, this would be a good psolution, I don't think it should be hard to raise the skillgain while the skillcap is same, as you learn faster you hit it faster, good idea overall no problems and its accetable..these endless hours of powergaming, and figthing or crafting still makes sense, but magic is so slow allready on lower levels..gaining a higher skill there is so boring.
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Djironnyma
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Sorry but i think that is bullshit.abcfantasy wrote: If that is so, I can answer. Say I want to roleplay a knight, and leave him at low skill because I'm tired to spend hours of training. Sure, I can roleplay and have fun but when there's trouble, it's most likely completely useless to even fight.
1.) i have played long time a mage without any skill. i actually play a priest without any skill. and i also have played a orc chief ( fighter char) with nearly no skill...
2.) if the skills rise faster nothing will change, because the skills of all chars will raise faster. that mean in PvP nothing will change. if all chars have 100% of their class skill, the GM's will see that the monsters die to fast and the monsters would be make stronger. So in PC vs NPC will also nothing change.
The only thing witch will change is, that you cant get better after 5 mounth in your skill. what did you wand do than? Train next skill until you are a jack of all classes?
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Magdha Tiefenerz
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Hello!
Well, to reach higher levels of a skill it isn't enough just to repeat things over and over again. This will bring you only up to a certain point. It may even make you produce this same thing faster. But from there on you have to sit down and think about how to improve or change things. You have to try new things/ideas/approaches. This will cost time and/or even materials. It might be even neccessary to have someone to teach you, if you can't make it up by yourself.
I would second any systems that either allows:
- to trade of time making an object and to improve his skill (simulates you trying different approaches, ideas, techniques, etc.)
- some form of teaching (books, teachers, magical sources, etc.), that allows you to become better
With kind regards
Well, to reach higher levels of a skill it isn't enough just to repeat things over and over again. This will bring you only up to a certain point. It may even make you produce this same thing faster. But from there on you have to sit down and think about how to improve or change things. You have to try new things/ideas/approaches. This will cost time and/or even materials. It might be even neccessary to have someone to teach you, if you can't make it up by yourself.
I would second any systems that either allows:
- to trade of time making an object and to improve his skill (simulates you trying different approaches, ideas, techniques, etc.)
- some form of teaching (books, teachers, magical sources, etc.), that allows you to become better
With kind regards
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Estralis Seborian
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Puh, half an hour and I cannot learn anything anymore for a whole day? 
Even though this is a public board, here are some more informations about how the skill system works for abc: Internal link
From this you can see that the skill system can be tweaked in various ways. If you tweak the three pillars - minor skillgains, MC-system and attribute-influence - you can achieve almost everything.
This is what I would do:
-Replace the INT-modificator with a "lead-attribute modificator"
-Tweak the minor skillgain and thus the learning curve in a way that skillgain becomes more satisfying
-Change the MC-system so that is adjusts the learning speed to the "style of playing"
In detail:
The INT-modificator thingy is obvious, I would replace INT with one attribute for each skillgroup. Like, a crafter learns faster with high DEX while a fighter learns faster with high STR and a mage needs high INT (the first one who comes up with realism may strangle himself!). I think this can be done with reasonable effort.
The learning curve is a bit harder. Currently, one can learn very fast up to level 10, after that, the speed decreases and becomes ridiculous slow on high levels. I was a bit more into the whole calculation half a year ago and posted a (german) suggestion how to change that (last post in the topic). Maybe you are interested in this, given the actual code I could rephrase my suggestions. The goal was that skillgain becomes slower on low levels and faster on high levels with the overall speed still being tweakable. So, not the overall speed was the issue, but the distribution, the shape of the learning curve. As I stated somewhere else, there is no "make skillgain 3 times faster"-stuff, for that, the skill system is a bit too sophisticated.
The MC-system works a bit different than in the long forgotten past, you have a long time of "free actions" with full learning speed. This learning speed can drop to almost zero later on. I would change this system in a sophisticated way that might be a bit too complicated to explain how it should work. Thus, I describe how I would determine how to do the change:
Every action needs time now. So, we can calculate how many actions of one type one can do per time.
Example: We can calculate that one who crafts all the time can do X crafting actions in Y minutes.
Now we can make up a value that tells us the border between "normal" and "excessive" gaming in "time spend for actions/time ingame".
Example: We say, it is OK to spend 25% of your time ingame for skilling. Thus, we say, during 4 minutes, you may spend 1 minute for skilling.
From this, we can determine the number of actions for each skill class we consider "normal".
Example: Assuming a crafting action takes 5 seconds, in the example above, you may do 12 crafting actions in 4 minutes
Every action generates MC-points. These points drop by time on a constant rate. Now we can say that our actions generate MC-points, normalized on the time that is needed for them.
Example: We assume that crafting actions take 5s each and fighting actions 1s each. So we conclude that crafting actions have to generate five times the MC-points as fighting actions. Also, we conclude that when one fighting action generates one MC-point and a crafting action generates five MC-points, MC-points have to drop by 5 point in 20 seconds for we said that 1/4 of your time spend for skilling shall not increase the MC-points.
Congratulations for those who read this so far. It is getting even more confusing now. We can say now that those who spend more time for skilling than “normal” get more and more MC-points while those who act in a normal way stay on a constant level. Let us limit the MC-points to a certain value, just like it is done now. Finally, we just have to think in how far the MC-points influence the skillgain. For simplicity, we assume that a normal player has low MC-points and an excessive player the maximum value. We said that we allow a certain ratio of skilling/total online time. Thus, a normal player can learn at a certain speed, without raising his MC-points. As simple as it is, we can now decrease the learning speed of somebody who has maximum MC-points by EXACTLY this ratio or less.
Example: We said that we allow 25% of online time spend for skilling. A “normal player” learns at normal speed. An excessive player with maximum MC-points can gain the same skill in the same online time as a normal player when his speed of skillgain is reduced to 1/4.
This yields that it does not matter how many action the normal gamer and the excessive gamer do, by the end of the day, they have exactly the same skillgain! So, the time they spend online matters ONLY, this is just what the “new” skillsystem, as proposed by Shi’Voc and Vilarion, is all about. The big difference is that a player who spends even less time for skilling than the “normal” ratio gets less skill, but I have to admit this is just fair and motivating. I mean, come on, will you be motivated to play a game where you can do one action each hour and gain skill while you pick your nose? The current MC-system grants “free” actions, up to a certain border, this is what I would keep. What I would decrease drastically is that the MC-points decrease while you are offline. This motivates players who “hit the cap” to log off, for they know they cannot gain skill anymore, but when they login tomorrow, they can continue. We want people to stay ingame, don’t we? And since the learning speed will never increase above a fixed level , it does not matter wether the MC-points are high or low, one can play on just how one wants to, in ones own style. Also, I would remove those annoying messages (“You cannot concentrate on powergaming right now” or such) for they are useless when everybody can learn approximately at the same speed in terms of skill/time.
For those who read and understood what I wrote, I ask you to give me some feedback. If I am wrong with something, please correct me. This is far away from being a perfect concept, just a general idea how things could work.
Note: All values having nothing to do with the ingame reality and are just examples that can be calculated easily. In special the “25%” are just an example! I would take a way lower value.
Even though this is a public board, here are some more informations about how the skill system works for abc: Internal link
From this you can see that the skill system can be tweaked in various ways. If you tweak the three pillars - minor skillgains, MC-system and attribute-influence - you can achieve almost everything.
This is what I would do:
-Replace the INT-modificator with a "lead-attribute modificator"
-Tweak the minor skillgain and thus the learning curve in a way that skillgain becomes more satisfying
-Change the MC-system so that is adjusts the learning speed to the "style of playing"
In detail:
The INT-modificator thingy is obvious, I would replace INT with one attribute for each skillgroup. Like, a crafter learns faster with high DEX while a fighter learns faster with high STR and a mage needs high INT (the first one who comes up with realism may strangle himself!). I think this can be done with reasonable effort.
The learning curve is a bit harder. Currently, one can learn very fast up to level 10, after that, the speed decreases and becomes ridiculous slow on high levels. I was a bit more into the whole calculation half a year ago and posted a (german) suggestion how to change that (last post in the topic). Maybe you are interested in this, given the actual code I could rephrase my suggestions. The goal was that skillgain becomes slower on low levels and faster on high levels with the overall speed still being tweakable. So, not the overall speed was the issue, but the distribution, the shape of the learning curve. As I stated somewhere else, there is no "make skillgain 3 times faster"-stuff, for that, the skill system is a bit too sophisticated.
The MC-system works a bit different than in the long forgotten past, you have a long time of "free actions" with full learning speed. This learning speed can drop to almost zero later on. I would change this system in a sophisticated way that might be a bit too complicated to explain how it should work. Thus, I describe how I would determine how to do the change:
Every action needs time now. So, we can calculate how many actions of one type one can do per time.
Example: We can calculate that one who crafts all the time can do X crafting actions in Y minutes.
Now we can make up a value that tells us the border between "normal" and "excessive" gaming in "time spend for actions/time ingame".
Example: We say, it is OK to spend 25% of your time ingame for skilling. Thus, we say, during 4 minutes, you may spend 1 minute for skilling.
From this, we can determine the number of actions for each skill class we consider "normal".
Example: Assuming a crafting action takes 5 seconds, in the example above, you may do 12 crafting actions in 4 minutes
Every action generates MC-points. These points drop by time on a constant rate. Now we can say that our actions generate MC-points, normalized on the time that is needed for them.
Example: We assume that crafting actions take 5s each and fighting actions 1s each. So we conclude that crafting actions have to generate five times the MC-points as fighting actions. Also, we conclude that when one fighting action generates one MC-point and a crafting action generates five MC-points, MC-points have to drop by 5 point in 20 seconds for we said that 1/4 of your time spend for skilling shall not increase the MC-points.
Congratulations for those who read this so far. It is getting even more confusing now. We can say now that those who spend more time for skilling than “normal” get more and more MC-points while those who act in a normal way stay on a constant level. Let us limit the MC-points to a certain value, just like it is done now. Finally, we just have to think in how far the MC-points influence the skillgain. For simplicity, we assume that a normal player has low MC-points and an excessive player the maximum value. We said that we allow a certain ratio of skilling/total online time. Thus, a normal player can learn at a certain speed, without raising his MC-points. As simple as it is, we can now decrease the learning speed of somebody who has maximum MC-points by EXACTLY this ratio or less.
Example: We said that we allow 25% of online time spend for skilling. A “normal player” learns at normal speed. An excessive player with maximum MC-points can gain the same skill in the same online time as a normal player when his speed of skillgain is reduced to 1/4.
This yields that it does not matter how many action the normal gamer and the excessive gamer do, by the end of the day, they have exactly the same skillgain! So, the time they spend online matters ONLY, this is just what the “new” skillsystem, as proposed by Shi’Voc and Vilarion, is all about. The big difference is that a player who spends even less time for skilling than the “normal” ratio gets less skill, but I have to admit this is just fair and motivating. I mean, come on, will you be motivated to play a game where you can do one action each hour and gain skill while you pick your nose? The current MC-system grants “free” actions, up to a certain border, this is what I would keep. What I would decrease drastically is that the MC-points decrease while you are offline. This motivates players who “hit the cap” to log off, for they know they cannot gain skill anymore, but when they login tomorrow, they can continue. We want people to stay ingame, don’t we? And since the learning speed will never increase above a fixed level , it does not matter wether the MC-points are high or low, one can play on just how one wants to, in ones own style. Also, I would remove those annoying messages (“You cannot concentrate on powergaming right now” or such) for they are useless when everybody can learn approximately at the same speed in terms of skill/time.
For those who read and understood what I wrote, I ask you to give me some feedback. If I am wrong with something, please correct me. This is far away from being a perfect concept, just a general idea how things could work.
Note: All values having nothing to do with the ingame reality and are just examples that can be calculated easily. In special the “25%” are just an example! I would take a way lower value.
Last edited by Estralis Seborian on Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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abcfantasy
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Could you mind your language and speak decently, please? We don't want any flaming out of this.Djironnyma wrote:...i think that is bullshit.
Well done to you. I have played an orc warrior too without any skill, I've had much fun with him too but what happened? I always lost all roleplayed fights because people think it's unfair that they have spent time into training while I didn't. Ctrl + click fights are part of the game, if they weren't, they should be disabled for PvP.Djironnyma wrote:1.) i have played long time a mage without any skill. i actually play a priest without any skill. and i also have played a orc chief ( fighter char) with nearly no skill...
The result should be more or less the same as now, but with less training. You can raise your skills faster, but you can train less. Some players cannot play the role of their chars well because they don't want to waste hours of training. But then their chars unwantingly end up in a ctrl click fight, making them useless or close to useless.Djironnyma wrote:2.) if the skills rise faster nothing will change, because the skills of all chars will raise faster. that mean in PvP nothing will change. if all chars have 100% of their class skill, the GM's will see that the monsters die to fast and the monsters would be make stronger. So in PC vs NPC will also nothing change.
Of course, the time it takes to raise your skills can be discussed and changed. We could extend it to a year perhaps. I think it's not common to have players who play their chars for a year, daily.
You could just roleplay? Or make a certain skill cap of how much skills you can have? And as I said before, the time can be extended.Djironnyma wrote:The only thing witch will change is, that you cant get better after 5 mounth in your skill. what did you wand do than? Train next skill until you are a jack of all classes?
One last point. Since you are good and happy with playing unskilled chars, this topic should be no concern to you as it won't effect you in any way.
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Pellandria
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abcfantasy
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@Estralis:
Hrm...I read it all, it's quite complicated and I must admit I didn't understand it perfectly. But I think it's a good move, in my opinion.
Will it take long to make the required changes?
Will it stop us from needing ridiculous hours to raise a skill, but at the same time, not skilling too fast in too little time?
Willl it encourage spending time in roleplaying?
Although not entirely certain, from what I've read, I believe it more or less does all those.
Hrm...I read it all, it's quite complicated and I must admit I didn't understand it perfectly. But I think it's a good move, in my opinion.
Will it take long to make the required changes?
Will it stop us from needing ridiculous hours to raise a skill, but at the same time, not skilling too fast in too little time?
Willl it encourage spending time in roleplaying?
Although not entirely certain, from what I've read, I believe it more or less does all those.
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Estralis Seborian
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1. Ask a dev! Oh, wait... Nevermindabcfantasy wrote:Will it take long to make the required changes?
Will it stop us from needing ridiculous hours to raise a skill, but at the same time, not skilling too fast in too little time?
Willl it encourage spending time in roleplaying?
For me, it would take ages since I have burned my C++-books and are a total noob when it comes to coding. A skilled person might do the necessary code changes in... maybe 1-2 fulltime days? Without determining the data, of course, that can be done by everyone, in around... the same time I guess. But those are just rough guesses, ask somebody who can tell, like Vilarion, Cassandra (<--creator of the skill system), Shi'Voc or martin.2. The system can be tweaked in this way, of course. The changes I suggest make this tweaking more simple, but do not cover the actual tweaking itself
3. Define "encourage". What I wrote should yield that it does not matter how many actions you do per time, but just how long you are online, with the exception that somebody who does close to no actions (=AFK, cybering, nose picking) gains no skill. It will guarantee that you cannot gain more skill by playing excessive, compared to somebody who just spends a minor share of his time for skill related actions. I cannot think of a method to "encourage" RP, but with this, one is not forced to play excessive to gain skill, but also, who wants to play excessive gets not kicked in his balls.
Yes, I know, some players might read all this and say: "Hey, powergamers can gain as much skill as a normal gamer?! Are you nuts! We have to punish them, restrict them, slow their skillgain to zero, omg!". Note that all restrictions that were ment to discourage powergamers (what is powergaming, anyway?) discouraged ALL players and made it necessary to play excessive to gain skill at all.
Edit: Before anybody gets me wrong: >90% of the current skill system are just fine, in special the hard-coded stuff. Much can be achieved by modifying values in the database, this is what the system was all about and it is really great! But the tweaking has to be done.
Yes, Dji at his END days had lots of skill. But 2 things.Pellandria wrote:Sorry but that seems to be a lie, I saw Dji cast spells, which couldn't be cast if you didn't got any skill at all.Djironnyma wrote: 1.) i have played long time a mage without any skill.
1. Dji is DEAD, this could be a NEW character.
2. Dji didn't ALWAYS have 100% pervestigatio.
e.g. My character can cast decent spells NOW. However; I spent 2 years playing a skill-less mage.
I personally like the skill system. It takes a while, sure, but illa isn't a short-term game, is it?
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Estralis Seborian
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OK, for all who do not know how the current skill system work and thus don't understand my post above, here is a short summary in plain words:
I suggest to change the calculation how much skill you gain in a way that it becomes a bit slower in the beginning (no 5 swirlies in 1 minute) and a bit faster for higher levels (no 1 swirlie in 5 months). I do not want to change the overall time you need to get to a certain skill level but the "slope of the learning curve".
The 2nd thing is that I want to use the so called "mental capacity system" for another purpose as it is now used for. Currently, when you did a certain number of actions, you get a message like "You cannot concentrate on powergaming right now" and you barely get any swirlies anymore, unless you log out and wait a day. I suggest to change this system in a way that it simply does not matter how many actions you do while online, you can just get a certain amount of skill per time. So, you can either craft 20 plate armors in an hour or just 5, but the skillgain will be the same. Who crafts nothing at all, gets no skill, though. This is the huge difference to the system, proposed here: http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=24308
I am not suggesting a brand new skill system. Our current one is great and can be tweaked by editing simple values in the database. But until now, nobody did this in a satisfying way. The changes I propose will leave >90% of the system unchanged. Cassandra, who created our current skill system, did a great job, but since most of us just see the result ("slow skillgain, powergaming is the only way to get skill"), it is not appreciated as it should be. Or, to use our belowed car example, when your car does not drive fast enough, you don't have to buy a motorcycle when you are just driving around with flat tires.
I suggest to change the calculation how much skill you gain in a way that it becomes a bit slower in the beginning (no 5 swirlies in 1 minute) and a bit faster for higher levels (no 1 swirlie in 5 months). I do not want to change the overall time you need to get to a certain skill level but the "slope of the learning curve".
The 2nd thing is that I want to use the so called "mental capacity system" for another purpose as it is now used for. Currently, when you did a certain number of actions, you get a message like "You cannot concentrate on powergaming right now" and you barely get any swirlies anymore, unless you log out and wait a day. I suggest to change this system in a way that it simply does not matter how many actions you do while online, you can just get a certain amount of skill per time. So, you can either craft 20 plate armors in an hour or just 5, but the skillgain will be the same. Who crafts nothing at all, gets no skill, though. This is the huge difference to the system, proposed here: http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=24308
I am not suggesting a brand new skill system. Our current one is great and can be tweaked by editing simple values in the database. But until now, nobody did this in a satisfying way. The changes I propose will leave >90% of the system unchanged. Cassandra, who created our current skill system, did a great job, but since most of us just see the result ("slow skillgain, powergaming is the only way to get skill"), it is not appreciated as it should be. Or, to use our belowed car example, when your car does not drive fast enough, you don't have to buy a motorcycle when you are just driving around with flat tires.
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Estralis Seborian
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Erm, forget about the stuff I wrote about the MC-system. I detected a major flaw in it, I concentrated too much on the extreme values. To keep the learning speed constant, the MC-points have to stay constant. I also thought about a fix, a proportional controller ("P-Regler") for the MC-value, but I assume this becomes too complicated for most readers. Also, I am not sure wether such a complicated system (note: for a control engineer it is trivial) is what solves our main problem. But if a dev is interested in my thoughts, you may contact me.
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Taeryon Silverlight
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Estralis, ich finde deine Idee(n) genial. Wenn ich alles richtig verstanden habe, würde das folgende Vorteile haben:
-Die Lerngeschwindigkeit in Abhängigkeit der Attribute würde fairer werden
-Ein Charakter, der seine gesamte ig-Zeit mit skillen verbringt wird nicht mehr Skill bekommen als jemand, der genau so lange on ist, aber nur einen gewissen Teil der Zeit mit skillen verbringt
-Das Lernen wird für die, die nicht nur skillen, sondern auch rpen wollen weniger zeitaufwändig
Das ist denke ich genau das, was die meisten Spieler wollen und abgesehen davon, denke ich langfrisitg unkomplizierter als zum Beispiel das System mit "RP-Skillpunktevergabe durch GMs".
-Die Lerngeschwindigkeit in Abhängigkeit der Attribute würde fairer werden
-Ein Charakter, der seine gesamte ig-Zeit mit skillen verbringt wird nicht mehr Skill bekommen als jemand, der genau so lange on ist, aber nur einen gewissen Teil der Zeit mit skillen verbringt
-Das Lernen wird für die, die nicht nur skillen, sondern auch rpen wollen weniger zeitaufwändig
Das ist denke ich genau das, was die meisten Spieler wollen und abgesehen davon, denke ich langfrisitg unkomplizierter als zum Beispiel das System mit "RP-Skillpunktevergabe durch GMs".
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Estralis Seborian
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(Sorry for german, just summarizing what I wrote above.)
Ja, genau das ist das, was ich in etwa vorschlage. Allerdings ist die technische Umsetzung nicht so ganz trivial. So wie ich mir das vorstelle, könnte jeder Spieler während seiner Onlinezeit genauso so viel oder wenig Aktionen durchführen, wie er wollte, das Skillwachstum wäre für alle ähnlich groß, wenn man es auf die Zeit bezieht. Kleiner Haken dabei wäre, dass jemand, der in einer Tour klickt genauso schnell hochlevelt wie jemand, der auch mal was anderes tut, aber Bestrafungen gegen "Dauerklicker" haben in der Vergangenheit eigentlich immer genau dazu geführt, dass dieses Dauerklicken immernoch der beste Weg war, um seine Skills zu steigern...
Um das mit dem "P-Regler" nochmal zu erläutern: Fernab von für die meisten nicht verständlichen MC-Werten, nehmen wir mal an, es gäbe so einen Parameter wie "Skillzuwachs je Aktion". Dieser Parameter müßte für jemanden, der gerne viel klickt, niedrig sein, damit er nach einer Stunde den gleichen Skillzuwachs hat wie jemand, der wenig klickt und einen hohen Wert hat. Die ließe sich so erreichen, dass jede Aktion "Punkte" generiert. Je nach "Punktestand" ist der Skillzuwachs hoch oder niedrig. Damit die Punkte nicht ins unermessliche steigen, müssen sie mit der Zeit sinken. Allerdings müssen sie genau so schnell sinken, wie sie erzeugt werden, damit sich ein konstanter Zustand einpendelt. Bei dem Posting weiter oben war ich von einer konstanten Abnahme dieser Punkte ausgegangen, was natürlich Murks ist, denn dies würde dazu führen, dass der Punktestand einiger Spieler, die nur etwas mehr als "wenig" Aktionen je Zeit durchführen, sich nach und nach dem Punktestand eines "exzessiven Spielers" nähern würden. Daher, hoher Punktestand, schnelle Abnahme der Punkte, niedriger Punktestand, langsame Abnahme der Punkte -> stabiler Regelkreis, wenn die Abnahme der Punkte bezogen auf die üblichen Punktezahlen klein ist.
Allerdings wäre ein solches System, nun, es ist eigentlich kein System sondern nur eine Modfikation des bisherigen Systems, und davon nur eines kleinen Untersystems, weiterhin aktionsgebunden. Sprich, wer stundenlang keine Aktion durchführt, bekommt auch keinen Skill, basta. Die Lerngeschwindigkeit würde sich aber dem Stil des Spielers anpassen und, wenn alles perfekt läuft, wäre nur die Onlinezeit entscheident, nicht aber, ob man viel klickt oder nur wenig. Hauptsache, man ist online und geht seiner Rolle nach.
PS: Wer Bock hat, kann jetzt noch auf die Idee kommen, die Lerngeschwindigkeit per PID-Regler zu steuern, aber dann geh ich Stick Soldier I spielen.
Ja, genau das ist das, was ich in etwa vorschlage. Allerdings ist die technische Umsetzung nicht so ganz trivial. So wie ich mir das vorstelle, könnte jeder Spieler während seiner Onlinezeit genauso so viel oder wenig Aktionen durchführen, wie er wollte, das Skillwachstum wäre für alle ähnlich groß, wenn man es auf die Zeit bezieht. Kleiner Haken dabei wäre, dass jemand, der in einer Tour klickt genauso schnell hochlevelt wie jemand, der auch mal was anderes tut, aber Bestrafungen gegen "Dauerklicker" haben in der Vergangenheit eigentlich immer genau dazu geführt, dass dieses Dauerklicken immernoch der beste Weg war, um seine Skills zu steigern...
Um das mit dem "P-Regler" nochmal zu erläutern: Fernab von für die meisten nicht verständlichen MC-Werten, nehmen wir mal an, es gäbe so einen Parameter wie "Skillzuwachs je Aktion". Dieser Parameter müßte für jemanden, der gerne viel klickt, niedrig sein, damit er nach einer Stunde den gleichen Skillzuwachs hat wie jemand, der wenig klickt und einen hohen Wert hat. Die ließe sich so erreichen, dass jede Aktion "Punkte" generiert. Je nach "Punktestand" ist der Skillzuwachs hoch oder niedrig. Damit die Punkte nicht ins unermessliche steigen, müssen sie mit der Zeit sinken. Allerdings müssen sie genau so schnell sinken, wie sie erzeugt werden, damit sich ein konstanter Zustand einpendelt. Bei dem Posting weiter oben war ich von einer konstanten Abnahme dieser Punkte ausgegangen, was natürlich Murks ist, denn dies würde dazu führen, dass der Punktestand einiger Spieler, die nur etwas mehr als "wenig" Aktionen je Zeit durchführen, sich nach und nach dem Punktestand eines "exzessiven Spielers" nähern würden. Daher, hoher Punktestand, schnelle Abnahme der Punkte, niedriger Punktestand, langsame Abnahme der Punkte -> stabiler Regelkreis, wenn die Abnahme der Punkte bezogen auf die üblichen Punktezahlen klein ist.
Allerdings wäre ein solches System, nun, es ist eigentlich kein System sondern nur eine Modfikation des bisherigen Systems, und davon nur eines kleinen Untersystems, weiterhin aktionsgebunden. Sprich, wer stundenlang keine Aktion durchführt, bekommt auch keinen Skill, basta. Die Lerngeschwindigkeit würde sich aber dem Stil des Spielers anpassen und, wenn alles perfekt läuft, wäre nur die Onlinezeit entscheident, nicht aber, ob man viel klickt oder nur wenig. Hauptsache, man ist online und geht seiner Rolle nach.
PS: Wer Bock hat, kann jetzt noch auf die Idee kommen, die Lerngeschwindigkeit per PID-Regler zu steuern, aber dann geh ich Stick Soldier I spielen
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Richard Cypher
- Posts: 687
- Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:48 pm
- Location: U.S. of America, Massachusetts
Okay, here is the situation. After practicing more with the skill gain system I have come to realize that you can actually gain fighting skill at higher levels. It just takes more work. Also Estralis, already I have though of several ways to abuse your new idea and how people, if they are pgers, can still power game. Damn Power Gamers!
I also believe that anyone who spends more time in Illarion should get more for their effort or else people will only play for an hour with your new system then log out, mission accomplished.
You also mentioned how once you get a skillcap with the current system you have to log out for a day, you are wrong. I will not post actual times becuse it will encourage people to power game. ((btw the skill system is ridiculously fast when you just created a n00b character, i can get a skill cap in one to two minutes rofl))
I did like your idea though of certain stats affecting different types of characters. That sounds possible to do, since it has already been implemented or was, and would make the game more interesting. Though you will get a ton of max str int or dex people IG.
Now sadly my brain is fried from lack of sleep and I can not remember half the points I was gone to make so I will end this.
I also believe that anyone who spends more time in Illarion should get more for their effort or else people will only play for an hour with your new system then log out, mission accomplished.
You also mentioned how once you get a skillcap with the current system you have to log out for a day, you are wrong. I will not post actual times becuse it will encourage people to power game. ((btw the skill system is ridiculously fast when you just created a n00b character, i can get a skill cap in one to two minutes rofl))
I did like your idea though of certain stats affecting different types of characters. That sounds possible to do, since it has already been implemented or was, and would make the game more interesting. Though you will get a ton of max str int or dex people IG.
Now sadly my brain is fried from lack of sleep and I can not remember half the points I was gone to make so I will end this.
Sadly richard, its about impossible to skill cap with production crafts, because every step is so slow. The time inbetween means you loose as many or more unless you get really luck and don't hit your thumb for about 5 times in a row, then maybe you got 24 mc out of 3000 max. 
Theres a few ways to solve this- Make steps faster, make each step worth more learning. The cap is completely useless in this case, because theres no reasonable way to reach it. This means if you can get people to feed you food and resources you can train almost non-stop.
Theres a few ways to solve this- Make steps faster, make each step worth more learning. The cap is completely useless in this case, because theres no reasonable way to reach it. This means if you can get people to feed you food and resources you can train almost non-stop.
Nope nope nope. I skill cap every time I craft on my dwarf. He is higher skilled than most smiths. I mine and smith with him. I can cap in 30-45 minutes.Gro'bul wrote:Sadly richard, its about impossible to skill cap with production crafts, because every step is so slow. The time inbetween means you loose as many or more unless you get really luck and don't hit your thumb for about 5 times in a row, then maybe you got 24 mc out of 3000 max.
I hate this proposal. Learning for every skill seems great. Spend one of your days looking at monsters and then fight a few different types over a few days and see what makes you learn faster. It is possible to get to 100% in 5 months BTW with one hour a day.
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Estralis Seborian
- Posts: 12308
- Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:14 pm
- Location: Sir Postalot
- Contact:
@Richard:
It is out of question that you can gain skill at fighing even at higher levels. But when you look closely, you will find out that this is just an inbalance! One can perform hundreds of fighting actions in no time. When you fight one on one with a mummy, the following skills are affected: parry, dodge, tactics and at least one weapon skill. So, if you count the numbers of fighting actions, it becomes clear why you a) hit the cap with fighting way sooner than crafting b) gain more skill in total.
Sure, a fighter needs more skills than a crafter who performs only one craft, but when you have a look at the numbers, it is easier to master *all* fighting skills than *one* crafting skill when you just take a look at the required actions and the time needed for these actions. The only thing that regulates this is the MC-system, what annoys me, to be honest.
Concerning the MC-system, I know the exact time how long one has to wait until the "cap is gone", but I cannot be bothered to wait the time, so I prefer stop playing Illa and do something else when I hit the cap. Call me powergamer if you want, I consider Illarion a game with a huge affection to roleplaying, but not a graphical chat.
Also, you wrote that you can think of abuses / exploits, feel free to name them. Since I seriously doubt that the changes I adumbrated (Leo says this means "grob skizzieren") will be implemented or even taken into account by the devs, this won't cause any harm.
It is out of question that you can gain skill at fighing even at higher levels. But when you look closely, you will find out that this is just an inbalance! One can perform hundreds of fighting actions in no time. When you fight one on one with a mummy, the following skills are affected: parry, dodge, tactics and at least one weapon skill. So, if you count the numbers of fighting actions, it becomes clear why you a) hit the cap with fighting way sooner than crafting b) gain more skill in total.
Sure, a fighter needs more skills than a crafter who performs only one craft, but when you have a look at the numbers, it is easier to master *all* fighting skills than *one* crafting skill when you just take a look at the required actions and the time needed for these actions. The only thing that regulates this is the MC-system, what annoys me, to be honest.
Concerning the MC-system, I know the exact time how long one has to wait until the "cap is gone", but I cannot be bothered to wait the time, so I prefer stop playing Illa and do something else when I hit the cap. Call me powergamer if you want, I consider Illarion a game with a huge affection to roleplaying, but not a graphical chat.
Also, you wrote that you can think of abuses / exploits, feel free to name them. Since I seriously doubt that the changes I adumbrated (Leo says this means "grob skizzieren") will be implemented or even taken into account by the devs, this won't cause any harm.
@Lrmy
Gathering crafts like mining and lumberjacking ect are real easy to cap in sure. Smithing, carpentery, tailoring, ect producing end-products go so slow each step that its nearly impossible to hit cap. Which is one of the reasons skillgaining in those are so hard. If the speed of every one of these was like brewing (part of the cooking skill, but much faster than using bake house or campfire), I would have no problem.
addendum-
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v211/ ... omwork.jpg
As you can see, 12 succesful, uninterupted steps left me with no more than 6 mc each time I started a new step. I gained 12 mc per step. Not to mention I had about 20 other steps I got mc from, with either interrupt or fails.
Gathering crafts like mining and lumberjacking ect are real easy to cap in sure. Smithing, carpentery, tailoring, ect producing end-products go so slow each step that its nearly impossible to hit cap. Which is one of the reasons skillgaining in those are so hard. If the speed of every one of these was like brewing (part of the cooking skill, but much faster than using bake house or campfire), I would have no problem.
addendum-
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v211/ ... omwork.jpg
As you can see, 12 succesful, uninterupted steps left me with no more than 6 mc each time I started a new step. I gained 12 mc per step. Not to mention I had about 20 other steps I got mc from, with either interrupt or fails.
I said that brewing is faster than the other 2 ways to gain cooking skill. The other crafts are about the same for me speed wise as baking/cooking. Now comparitively, you can see that the mc gained from smithing (and other production crafts) is miniscule compared to the old system or gathering/magic/fighting skills. Even 60+ in the fighting system takes less than a hour to cap,its IMPOSSIBLE to skillcap in smithing beyond 20 (or whatever level you stop learning from smelting). I for one, think that MUST be an oversight.Lrmy wrote:Of course it should take longer than brewing or baking. It is a more useful and as you know, a harder skill to gain in real life. I like how it is -,-
I wish i knew how to skill cap 60+ fighting skills...I've fought golems for an hour and I couldn't....I don't think it is an oversight.Gro'bul wrote:I said that brewing is faster than the other 2 ways to gain cooking skill. The other crafts are about the same for me speed wise as baking/cooking. Now comparitively, you can see that the mc gained from smithing (and other production crafts) is miniscule compared to the old system or gathering/magic/fighting skills. Even 60+ in the fighting system takes less than a hour to cap,its IMPOSSIBLE to skillcap in smithing beyond 20 (or whatever level you stop learning from smelting). I for one, think that MUST be an oversight.Lrmy wrote:Of course it should take longer than brewing or baking. It is a more useful and as you know, a harder skill to gain in real life. I like how it is -,-
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Richard Cypher
- Posts: 687
- Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:48 pm
- Location: U.S. of America, Massachusetts
Capping is good for people who get skills in moderation and roleplay otherwise, instead of going out and getting their skills to 100% THEN roleplaying. (the roleplaying mainly involving threatening/intimidating people then killing them with 100% skill if they try anything)Richard Cypher wrote:I can cap with 60+ fighting skills. You just have to know what you are doing. I wish I could not cap so I could keep getting swirlies. Capping sucks.
Capping aint bad if you skill in moderation.
I think the cap is a great guage, and positive reinforcement so you know your gaining skill! If you can't get this, it seems hopeless (unless you got ways to check). Thats my biggest concern, but also that you can have a never ending cycle of powergaming.
Picture this- (Assuming above 20 smithing, and good mining)
Mine iron and coal till you hit your cap.
Smelt and smith it all.
mine iron and coal till you hit cap (you will have lost most mc in smelting, travelling, interrupts, and just sheer waiting time)
Repeat
You will gain skill constantly, unendingly, without end. This really defeats the point of the skillcap, I think. And you can do this with lumberjack/carpentery, farming and cooking, ect.
Picture this- (Assuming above 20 smithing, and good mining)
Mine iron and coal till you hit your cap.
Smelt and smith it all.
mine iron and coal till you hit cap (you will have lost most mc in smelting, travelling, interrupts, and just sheer waiting time)
Repeat
You will gain skill constantly, unendingly, without end. This really defeats the point of the skillcap, I think. And you can do this with lumberjack/carpentery, farming and cooking, ect.