a rant about mixed races

[Korm Kormsen]

the other thread being closed, i'll open one more for closing.

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the elves in Illa are a race, that lives a thousand years. (or more?)

humans live but 60 years, or a little more.

that is a ratio, that equals the one from humans to their pets.

how many humans have intercourse with their pets? not so many.
and that is, how "relations" between elves and humans should be. freakish. just a small part of the elvish population should be perverted enough, to be sexually attracted by these semi animals, called "humans".

elves should be received by humans as arrogant and haughty, and feared.
humans should be looked upon by elves.
bastards between the two races should be detested by elves, and feared and avoided by humans.

should be....

but that would demand roleplayers.

so we got elfesses, with cool, slim, Barbie-like avatars, that behave like highschool kids.

i met only three male elfs ingame till now, that were played haughty enough, to feel a difference between elves and humans.
and i met not even one elfess, whose RP justified another race beside humans.

in an ideal world of Illarion there would be even big differences between the different groups of humans.
(desertpeople in varshikar for instance)


but the chars in illa are all the same:
some very tragic background, modern language, modern habits, little or no "religious"beliefs, no superstiions, and free for all cybering.

to me it looks like milkshakes.
without importance of the ingredients, when ready for use, they all look alike. just some very small differences in colour.
.

[Azuros]

Personally, I disagree with your description of the elves. Elves in my eyes aren't haughty or feared. They are friendly towards all life, as they value it highly. They also shouldn't be 'feared' so much as respected for their power and collection of ancient secrets. I play my elf to be nature loving, friendly, religious and all magical, seems you might only agree with the religious part.

PS: But of course, elves should have a personality and not be 'cookie-cutter' characters, so it should vary along each elf.

[Frederick D'Aubigne]

to me it looks like milkshakes.
without importance of the ingredients, when ready for use, they all look alike. just some very small differences in colour..

A bit like Chinese food then?

[Jupiter]

I agree with Azuros.

[Llama]

how many humans have intercourse with their pets? not so many.
and that is, how "relations" between elves and humans should be. freakish. just a small part of the elvish population should be perverted enough, to be sexually attracted by these semi animals, called "humans".

There might be things which attract the other race to each other. We're not talking a long term-marriage relationship here, but even just a one-night thing would be enough to bear children.

Perhaps being with an elfess would be seen as a mark of status, something to boast about...

[Ayla]

I agree completely with Azuros on this one.

On the whole "Barbie-like, cool" definition of most elfess' in the game, I too agree.

However, we have to recall that most people whom participate in medieval-fantasy role-playing games such as this base their elven "alter-egos" off of those from Lord of the Rings. I never exactly recall the elves being described as fearful, arrogant creatures that look upon the human race with pure disgust. If so, looks like I missed something drastically.

To me, elves are seen as the gentle although arrogant sort. They are haughty, that much is true. Who wouldn't be, if their knowledge surpassed all but the Gods and their lifespans made them nearly invulnerable? But they are also to be seen as fairly kind people, are they not? In all the books I have read that personafied the elven race, I've never exactly heard them described so brutally as Korm has. *Shrug* Just my opinion.

[Mr. Cromwell]

PS: But of course, elves should have a personality and not be 'cookie-cutter' characters, so it should vary along each elf.

Except anything played by Narmir. Her characters have to be cookie cutters, RP be damned.

There are many kind of elves, just like there are many kinds of humans. I'd like to see more haughty.. or at the very least, condescending elves around.

"Look at it this way, my dear.. Human. Your name is completely irrelevant to me, as I will still be enjoying life when the names of your grandchildren have long since been forgotten. Now, young one.. Off you go."

[Korm Kormsen]

"Look at it this way, my dear.. Human. Your name is completely irrelevant to me, as I will still be enjoying life when the names of your grandchildren have long since been forgotten. Now, young one.. Off you go."

that's it!

ayla,

you mean the film or the books?
you read the books a quarter as often, as i have, add the silmarillion, and you might see elves, as i do.

[pharse]

Perhaps I throw in another view on that topic, which is also used here and there.


Elves are very nature-loving, some are even communicating with nature or animals. They are bound to their traditions, religions and culture. They often use magic. They see humans as barbarians, sometimes they look upon them in pity.

On the other hand humans see elves as backward savages. They think elves are insidious and foes of all humans. But because they don´t really have enough information about the elves and because of their magic, elves are very eery and many humans fear them, especially when going alone in the deep forest where the elve´s magic is very powerful and actually omnipresent.

[edit]I forgot to mention that both humans and elves see bastards as a disgusting mixture of their beloved blood[/edit]

Not that I completely agree on that, it´s just a spotlight. But I think this point of view is very interesting, because both sides actually think of themselves that they are superior.

[Halfgrim]

the elves in Illa are a race, that lives a thousand years. (or more?)

humans live but 60 years, or a little more.

that is a ratio, that equals the one from humans to their pets.

how many humans have intercourse with their pets? not so many.
and that is, how "relations" between elves and humans should be. freakish. just a small part of the elvish population should be perverted enough, to be sexually attracted by these semi animals, called "humans".

elves should be received by humans as arrogant and haughty, and feared.
humans should be looked upon by elves.
bastards between the two races should be detested by elves, and feared and avoided by humans.

should be....

but that would demand roleplayers.

Ehm, there are pets that live longer than humans too, so we may now f*ck, f.eks turtles? To me this is all rubbish.. There are other reasons for illa elves not to breed with humans. For example their big cultural differences, the fact that the humans die so early, not to mention that they can not be together in the after life... Half elves, (or half humans as I supose elves call them) are not feared by humans... They just mature very slowly, and as so have a hard time making friends. Half elves raised in an elven society has the oposite problem.

Where do you get this from? It's not how elves are in LOTR its not how elves are in D&D... These are the sources I use at least, and of course whatever I can find about elves here.

[Korm Kormsen]

one must read the small sidemarks, tolkien made.
i know, the first few times the story is so fascinating, that one does miss them.

think about the elves crossing the shire. to most they are just a rumor.
read the parts about bree. read the silmarillion, to learn, that elves are no softies.
the noldor for instance, a harsh, hard folk.

but anyhow, wlet us not disagree about details. let us better agree about the big picture.
the more different and separate the races are played, the more interesting mental conflicts can evolve.

damn the milkshake-RP!

ever read something from michael moorecock?
i recommend the prince chorum series.
(especially for players, that want to play elves)

the mabden Korm

[Julius]

Ah, Korm, since when was Illarion Middle Earth?

[Lord Arcia]

Elves look upon humans in these ways: by my opinions.

Like young children who do not know better for what they do. (same with half-elves)
They take pity on them, for the most part.
Can be tolerated by the elves, but not easily respected.

These things, of course, are not ALL of the things I think. Just a few.

[Korm Kormsen]

arcia,

yes. - and we would need more players, that play by this or similar lines.

[Kaila Galathil Travinus]

I would suggest that if someone thinks an elf should be played in such a way, they are welcome to play one that way, but not to try to influence another. As far as whom they associate with, has anyone ever found a background for maybe why a particular elf would be with a human? No one ever asked mine (except for the human she associates with) .

this is taken from Illa home page on elves:

http://illarion.org/illarion/races/us_elfes.php

Therefore most of the information accessible is derived from rumors and third hand reports, whose reliability is disputable

they seem to be even less forthcoming concerning their ages as they are secretive on general principal.

the age that humans judge they can be is just a guess.

In general the character of an Elf is quite mild–tempered and friendly, also towards people of other races; still they prefer the company of their own kind. But it appears that there is a distinct period in their life, in which they choose to wander around the world and leave their homeland. This often happens in their youth.

The Navro´anai

with the exception of very young Elves, disputes with them are seldom to be perceived.

My interpretation is NOT the haughtiness and distance that some think elves should be, however, I recognize that others have different opinions and don't try to tell them how to RP. After all , this is a game, and I also believe people do the best they can with their interpretation of the races.

[Korm Kormsen]

Kaila,

taken from the same text:

They try to avoid attracting attention and very few have ever had the opportunity to gain a deeper insight into their society and their peculiar way of life.

is that, why we got so many elves meddling in mortal politics?

Elves are quite close to nature. It is apparent that they look upon nature as a sentient being in its own right and attend it with all due respect. They tend to avoid leaving damaging traces on earth.

is that, why most elves live in bane or briar?

Elvish society has a clan structure that has a rather decentralized organization.

is that, why so many elves are insisting in "democratic" rights?

the character of an Elf is quite mild–tempered and friendly, also towards people of other races; still they prefer the company of their own kind.

at least i found the reason, why they meddle with humans.

see, for me it is easy too, to pick onesided arguments from a given text.

I would suggest that if someone thinks an elf should be played in such a way, they are welcome to play one that way, but not to try to influence another.

1. i don't think, that i could play a good elf. (probably i would make just those mistakes, i am showing here as made commonly)
2. yes, i take the liberty, to tell, how i think, how elves should be played, because that influences the fun, i can have from the game.

just answer one question:
why is that town/island, that is made according to the illarion-elves background so empty?
because the elves RP fits the background?

[Korm Kormsen]

double post...

and I also believe people do the best they can with their interpretation of the races.

well, from my point of view this "best" is not good enough, in many cases.
so maybe, elves should be a special race too?

not even to mention all those half-something...

[Kaila Galathil Travinus]

just answer one question:
why is that town/island, that is made according to the illarion-elves background so empty?
because the elves RP fits the background

your other answers..."most, so many", etc. are such generalities they are all up to interpretation.


As far as why they don't live in Tol? Kaila lived there for three weeks RL time.. she saw Anfala, two other german players, Retlak and Arameh. This on different days. (perhaps there are not enough players for the map, the towns are too far apart, travel is too expensive, or, there are not enough RPers playing there. It could also be if all are that haughty. other elves don't want to see them )

from my point of view

That is my point, we all have our point of view, I am not telling someone else how to RP it.

[Cliu Beothach]

Creatures that mature about 100 times slower than the others should be looked upon with honor?

Bah, changing diapers for 20 more years, no thank you.

[Isilwen]

Except anything played by Narmir. Her characters have to be cookie cutters, RP be damned.

Damn straight.

Personally I am a bit in the middle of all of these points. I am with Korm in that I can think of way more elvish characters that are more like humans than elves, and this does not seem right. It would appear that too many people are roleplaying "exceptions" to the race, which are meant to be rare. Currently, roleplay fitting to a race seems to be the rare exception, but this should not be.

I would love to see more differences between every race. Elves should be respected, perhaps feared but not necessarily. My elfess doesn't exactly look down on other races, but she is generally more amiable toward her own kind even if she does not know them well, and certainly expects to be respected if one of another race is visiting Tol Vanima.

It always seems a little silly to me when I go through populated areas like Trollsbane and see everyone of any race acting like good friends, fair and equal toward each other. This sort of community would be ideal in real life, but the ingame world is definitely missing some prejudices. For the medieval setting I would expect people to judge others based on their wealth and social status, and from a fantasy setting I would expect judgments based on racial stereotypes. I am not saying this is missing completely, because there are definitely some that get cookies for doing some of what I just described, but overall these things are absent in the Illa world.

Viva la race-RP!

[Korm Kormsen]

Narmir,

thank you, you expessed it better, than i did.

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kaila,

forgeddit!
i got the impression, that you don't even understand my point.
so just go on, to play a "modern elf".

[Estralis Seborian]

What I did not fail to notice is that many characters think in a very modern way. They have moral standards that were unknown on RL-earth for the existance of mankind minus ~40 years. Sure, Illarion is a fantasy world and we don't have to copy RL. But sometimes, I'd wish that players think more about how their character in this fantasy world would react, not how they would react in RL.

But lets never forget that Illarion is a game and not a hardcore roleplaying chatroom. Let us encourage each other, show good examples and honor good RP instead of moaning about what is not so good. Let the newbies learn from the great RPers we have (*points at teh_cromster*) and be open minded for new ways.

[Kaila Galathil Travinus]

I agree Estralis, open-minded is what the game should be about. There are things I along with others would like to see, different ways played. But the important thing is it is a game and we can all enjoy it in different ways.

[Lrmy]

Hardly any races are played correctly. Dwarfs are the closest. Humans are farther than elves are from how they are supposed to be.

[MacDoosh]

I think that there aren't very many fairies IG. I think it has to do with the elven RP lacking in true elfness. Yup. My beliefs.

[Scott Macleod]

Hardly any races are played correctly. Dwarfs are the closest. Humans are farther than elves are from how they are supposed to be.

I quite disagree. Although most are played 'modern', there are several Humans that actually TRY to follow the descriptions of the various 'Human' civilizations and try to act, live and RP different.

I play Scott, as...well.... a Scotsman, but it is the closest to the Norodaj race of Humans I can think of, but Korm's Tjalf also provides a good example of true Norodaj. I'm trying to learn and incorporate into my own RP and activity. For example, making those long trips to the Nordmark, because it's..Home.

Also, think what you may, but when Samantha Merylades was around, you knew she was from 'High Civilized Society'.

I am sure there are other examples, but I agree with Korm when he says that Humans aren't different enough, much less the other races! I've seen many elves acting as humans myself. With so many Humans and Elves, with the 'token examples' of other races, it's no wonder they act the same. And to imagine, the elves once complained that everyone was learning elvish! HA!!! As much as they hang around with humans, I think Humans should be able to pick up elvish.

For RP's sake, maybe it's not a bad idea to ask the Elves to return to Vanima, where they belong, It's better equiped with livestock than any other place anyways. After all, aren't Trollsbane, Varshikar and Nordmark 'Human' settlements? Greenbriar is supposed to be for 'Halflings', Zzyathis is for Lizards and Silverbrand is for the 'Dwarves'.

I am afraid only Silverbrand, Nordmark and Zzyathis have got this right.

If this sounds 'racist'......................

Aye! It is Lad! And proud of it too!!!

[Richard Cypher]

I read pretty much none of what was written here but Korm's post and the next two or so. My opinion for how an elf should be played matches with his. Elves should be more arrogant and less trusting of the "lesser races". Elves are very secretive of their ways of life, and do not like the other races meddling in their ways of life or coming to their homeland.

I also want to point out how ridiculous it is that every time I go to Tol Vanima it is over run with twice as many humans than elves. What gives? An elven homeland is exactly that, AN ELVEN HOMELAND. It should be sacred and not be accessible...easily to other races. That is also why other races have their own specific places. Dwarves have their own place. Orcs have their own. Lizards have one too.

Some elves yes are friendly or more willing to trust but they abide by elvish customs fully. Anything less and they would be banished from their homeland. They would be termed a dark elf, or an outcast. This does not make you a drow, it just means you are not accepted by the others of your race.

I think people need to put a lot more serious consideration into their characters. Each one should have their own style of RP. If you want something easier to RP, then try being a human and RPing him as you would in real life until you get the hang of it. From then on you can move onto other races and try out new things.

Edit: Sorry Korm, I sort of turned this into my own rant...

[Korm Kormsen]

don't be sorry, i loved to read it!

[Lrmy]

The orc cave has only ever had one non-orc member. Under the shadow horde. Troll's Bane hasn't been a purely human settlement ever in the history of Illarion.

Just because you play a character close to how you should does not mean everyone does. I myself have never had a character have a talk with Tjalf(unless it was rather short), I don't know if I have seen him in game or not. No comment on Samantha. I still stand on the point humans are the farthest from correct of any race.

Troll's Bane is the dumbest town in a fantasy game ever. It is also the root of all problems with races I think. Well Greenbriar is a bit off as well....

From what I understand the following, lets call them "race towns", are as so:
Nordmark: Clan system - correct for the sect of the human race their citizens are.
Vanima: Elder system - as far as I can see also correct
Silverbrand: King - Perfect
Bloodskull Clan: Orc chief - also good
Greenbriar: I uhh..are ..err.. - Clearly no longer a halfing town - Council
Varshikar: Human ruled - I don't know how they go about choosing leaders, but it seems to fit.
Troll's Bane: If you don't know how it works...you aren't confused..it's just dumb.

Anyhow, the diplomatic people that can't seem to understand Illarion is not modern all flock to Troll's Bane. The conflicts in game revolving around Troll's bane are normally between the people who don't understand Illarion is not modern, and the people that do realize this.

[Scott Macleod]

Troll's Bane is the dumbest town in a fantasy game ever. It is also the root of all problems with races I think. Well Greenbriar is a bit off as well....

Signed!

From what I understand the following, lets call them "race towns", are as so:
Nordmark: Clan system - correct for the sect of the human race their citizens are.
Vanima: Elder system - as far as I can see also correct
Silverbrand: King - Perfect
Bloodskull Clan: Orc chief - also good
Greenbriar: I uhh..are ..err.. - Clearly no longer a halfing town - Council
Varshikar: Human ruled - I don't know how they go about choosing leaders, but it seems to fit.
Troll's Bane: If you don't know how it works...you aren't confused..it's just dumb.

Anyhow, the diplomatic people that can't seem to understand Illarion is not modern all flock to Troll's Bane. The conflicts in game revolving around Troll's bane are normally between the people who don't understand Illarion is not modern, and the people that do realize this.

In a fantasy world, how come there is only one 'King'? All in all, I think half of the towns are played poorly, and resemble 'modern' towns, not fantasy. Maybe we need a few 'self-declared' Kings? I always expected Trollsbane to create one, Fooser did once, but it should have been more permanent, I thought. I mean, how can you have a Governor, without a King to appoint him? What Trollsbane really 'elects' is a 'President' not a Governor. Elections.....pah! Too modern a concept for me to RP with.