Hear ye.. Hear ye.. everyone.
It seems that our economy is slowly going into shambles. The prices of items have risen very sharply, relievingly not all items. Remember the old days when wood only used to cost about 2-2.5gp and everyone was happy now it ranges from 3.5-5 gp!!! thats quite a curve. You may earn more by selling it but you cetainly loose more when you buy it.
How things used to be and are now:
-gold nuggets 30gp; now 40-50gp
-bottles 5gp or less; now 7gp or less
-wood 2-2.5gp ; now 3.5-5
-gems were taken for granted in the so they dont count
-potions prices have risen very rarely on occasions
-etc..
These were just a few examples but it may be too late in the future, the rich people can easily earn more (this includes me and many others) to easily keep up with this but what about everyone else. The economy is slowly becoming inflated with high prices, this is really bad.
Many people feel that yes i should pay this person this much more money then what I pay other hired people. But then they stick to it and force many others to pay that high rate. I am not saying that you shouldn't sell it for a high or low price but always remind them of what the real price is. Even though Illarion may be a small community does not mean that it can't go wrong like many other large communities. It is quite possible.
Me and a few of my friends have been trying to bring back the old prices and our success has had very tiny effect. Maybe a few or lot of you may want to bring back "The old days" so our economy stays in a balance.
Thank you.
Economy
Moderator: Gamemasters
@Kringin The economy and the item prices are ok as they are now. In fact, I would go so far as to say having some of the items even harder to obtain and even more expensive would be even better. Would you rather have it all the same as in the "old days" where every newbie had hundreds of potions, a suit of knight armor, and a firesword?
@Elaralith
i agree with you and kringin at the same time. on one hand you want cheap prices cause its hard to get money and easy to spend(unless you are rich)on the other hand you can spend more money and make more money. i rather the 'opld days' when you make less and spend less. that IS better for the economy.if everyone has everything, that means you dont have to work. more time to relax. more time to make items for a time such as now when inflation strikes.
i hope the in the near future that deflation will take place.
Drogla, son of drag
Bargen Master
www.geocities.com/bargenmasters
i agree with you and kringin at the same time. on one hand you want cheap prices cause its hard to get money and easy to spend(unless you are rich)on the other hand you can spend more money and make more money. i rather the 'opld days' when you make less and spend less. that IS better for the economy.if everyone has everything, that means you dont have to work. more time to relax. more time to make items for a time such as now when inflation strikes.
i hope the in the near future that deflation will take place.
Drogla, son of drag
Bargen Master
www.geocities.com/bargenmasters
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Sir Gannon
- Posts: 364
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- Location: Gathering himself for battle.
- Contact:
Ok im stepping in now. The reason you dont want to work less and have more time to relax is, IT GETS BORING! Im speaking from personal exp here. When you fight and just talk all of the time things get into a rut. So you need to balance out how much you work, fight, and play. Other wise you are gonna get SSOOOO bored. So you have to work hard for that peice of armor you want so bad or that fire sword. Well dont you enjoy it more when you get it? Dont you fight for a while then go to earn more money for that next peice of equipment? Thats my point and of course you talk and such the entire time you do that. Theres my 2 cents 
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Caranthir the great
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I think, that the relation of prices between basis materials and produced goods isn't the best.
The prices for materials (like wood, coal, iron, bottles) have risen, therefore every producer has to pay more and therefor the prices of products will rise, too. That's ok in my opinion.
But the fact is, that people sell materials in categories of 500 or 1000 and gain with the risen prices a lot of money. But the product-prices haven't risen, cause noone will buy large amounts of products (who like to buy 500 longaxes?). And Eliza hasn't changed her prices.
Therefor, the producers makeless profit and don't like to work ....
e.g.
I buy 1000 iron and coal for 1,5 gold each -> 12 silver
I manage to make 600 longaxes out of them (seemed to be real) and sell to Eliza -> I get about 14 silver
so the man selling materials has a profit of 12 silver
the producer has a profit of 2 silver
And this is in my opinion the real problem of the economie, not in the rising prices of the materials.
Logically, you have to buy materials for producing two or three long axes, than selling them to a normal price to people in need ...
e.g.
buy 10 iron and coal for maybe 3 gold each -> 60 gold to the material-man
selling three longaxes for 130 gold (SMACC) -> 390 gold to the producer
so the material man has a gain of 60 gold
the producer has a gain of 330 gold
This relation sounds more realistic, cause smithing good axes takes more efforts than mining materials.
And to supply this idea, it is usefull, that products have a timerate of getting out of order (like axes and shovels) and also that smithing is more complex (making ironbars, need of more coal or iron for one iteam ... like proposed in many topics). Than prices of materials may rise even higher and it is ok.
It is the mass production and the possibility to sell them to Eliza, that make the prices unreal.
(I hope, my english is clear enough to understand, what I mean.)
The prices for materials (like wood, coal, iron, bottles) have risen, therefore every producer has to pay more and therefor the prices of products will rise, too. That's ok in my opinion.
But the fact is, that people sell materials in categories of 500 or 1000 and gain with the risen prices a lot of money. But the product-prices haven't risen, cause noone will buy large amounts of products (who like to buy 500 longaxes?). And Eliza hasn't changed her prices.
Therefor, the producers makeless profit and don't like to work ....
e.g.
I buy 1000 iron and coal for 1,5 gold each -> 12 silver
I manage to make 600 longaxes out of them (seemed to be real) and sell to Eliza -> I get about 14 silver
so the man selling materials has a profit of 12 silver
the producer has a profit of 2 silver
And this is in my opinion the real problem of the economie, not in the rising prices of the materials.
Logically, you have to buy materials for producing two or three long axes, than selling them to a normal price to people in need ...
e.g.
buy 10 iron and coal for maybe 3 gold each -> 60 gold to the material-man
selling three longaxes for 130 gold (SMACC) -> 390 gold to the producer
so the material man has a gain of 60 gold
the producer has a gain of 330 gold
This relation sounds more realistic, cause smithing good axes takes more efforts than mining materials.
And to supply this idea, it is usefull, that products have a timerate of getting out of order (like axes and shovels) and also that smithing is more complex (making ironbars, need of more coal or iron for one iteam ... like proposed in many topics). Than prices of materials may rise even higher and it is ok.
It is the mass production and the possibility to sell them to Eliza, that make the prices unreal.
(I hope, my english is clear enough to understand, what I mean.)
Last edited by Aragon on Mon Feb 10, 2003 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ok ich muss leider mal wieder auf Deutsch posten da ich nicht so gut Englisch schreiben kann. Wenn ich das jetzt recht verstanden habe geht es hier um die zu hohen Preise (vor allem Rohstoffe)
Haben wird in Illarion nicht sowas wie eine freie Marktwirtschaft? Kann doch eigentlich jeder selbst bestimmen was er verlangt für seine Waren. Die S.M.A.C.C. Liste war doch dachte ich nur eine Anhaltspunkt an dem man sich halten kann doch es wird niemand dazu gezwungen. Und wenn jemand sein Holz für 10 Gold verkaufen will soll er doch. Aber es wird sich sicherlich ein Händler finden der Weniger verlangt.
Fall ich irgendetwas nicht richtig verstanden habe berichtigt mich. Und falls jemand lust und Zeit hat kann er das hier übersetzen
Haben wird in Illarion nicht sowas wie eine freie Marktwirtschaft? Kann doch eigentlich jeder selbst bestimmen was er verlangt für seine Waren. Die S.M.A.C.C. Liste war doch dachte ich nur eine Anhaltspunkt an dem man sich halten kann doch es wird niemand dazu gezwungen. Und wenn jemand sein Holz für 10 Gold verkaufen will soll er doch. Aber es wird sich sicherlich ein Händler finden der Weniger verlangt.
Fall ich irgendetwas nicht richtig verstanden habe berichtigt mich. Und falls jemand lust und Zeit hat kann er das hier übersetzen
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Caranthir the great
- Posts: 1476
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 9:06 pm
- Contact:
So which craftsman buys 1000 resources if he can't sell the amount of items he produces from it? It would be reasonable to buy a smaler amount of resources. If you do this, you can sell the produced products. The resource provider wouldn't be able to sell all the resources he can gather and therefore will go down with the price. We call this "free market". The craftsmen who buy too much are the ones who don't act logical and therefore underrun the "free market".Aragon wrote:But the fact is, that people sell materials in categories of 500 or 1000 and gain with the risen prices a lot of money. But the product-prices haven't risen, cause noone will buy large amounts of products (who like to buy 500 longaxes?).
Another good point made my Bror.
Caranthir what are you talking about? You are somehow stuck in this 'old People' subject that I dont even know why you bring it up. I am the one who sells and buys at the low price, I try to keep the inflation down as much as possible. Inflation is bad. But yea we definately need wear-and-tear.
Aragon you really buy a lot much materials, go easy, will ya? You certainly have seem to be overworking your self I still enjoy playing Illarion. Though I dont work for hours and yet I still get things done, hmm I wonder why.
Elaralith must you remind us the dreadly past?
besides with the new 10x harder system it hard to gain a shard of skill and very easy to loose it so there is quite a good balance (Thank god). So what if he\she has a lot of potions, he\she will have a lucky day where he feels to kill a demon and he\she will get smoked. IT has happened a lot. Potions are still expensive even though you say that everyone might have a lot, hmm i wonder why? 
Really think about the future and not the near future and the current state, it could turn out bad. Have a good day everyone.
Caranthir what are you talking about? You are somehow stuck in this 'old People' subject
that I dont even know why you bring it up. I am the one who sells and buys at the low price, I try to keep the inflation down as much as possible. Inflation is bad. But yea we definately need wear-and-tear.Aragon you really buy a lot much materials, go easy, will ya?
You certainly have seem to be overworking your self I still enjoy playing Illarion. Though I dont work for hours and yet I still get things done, hmm I wonder why.Elaralith must you remind us the dreadly past?
besides with the new 10x harder system it hard to gain a shard of skill and very easy to loose it so there is quite a good balance (Thank god). So what if he\she has a lot of potions, he\she will have a lucky day where he feels to kill a demon and he\she will get smoked. IT has happened a lot. Potions are still expensive even though you say that everyone might have a lot, hmm i wonder why? Really think about the future and not the near future and the current state, it could turn out bad. Have a good day everyone.
I think, you haven't read my post clearly enough.Kringin wrote:Aragon you really buy a lot much materials, go easy, will ya?
I haven't said, that I work for hours. There are weeks, playing Illarion, in which I made not a single piece of work. I like much more sitting at a campfire and talking .... and else things.
It was only an example to show, where the unbalancing in the market come from.
This is exactly, what I want to say with my example.Bror wrote:The craftsmen who buy too much are the ones who don't act logical and therefore underrun the "free market".
Okay, in the "old days" people were giving away plate mail. This was horrible for the economy.
I have only made 2 tweaks specifically to the economy, on player requests which I agreed with.
The first one was to introduce the gemcutting skill. This makes gems worth more, which indirectly makes rings worth more. Not sure if this effects the price of gold.
The second one was I changed the price that empty bottles were sold for. Not how much they are bought for by eliza, but how much they are sold for. This was specifically to increase the price of empty bottles as the materials needed to make them being bought meant that the glassblowers were only making 1 gold on each bottle. Almost every other item in the game can be sold (to eliza) for a 2 gold profit.
So, where is the rest of the inflation coming from? From the skill system. People are finding that they can no longer just learn the skill to make something, now it is in their best interest to buy it from someone else.
Whenever a player reset comes, then prices will be exhorbantly high for a time, until a few more learn the skills, then they will balance out. And I beleive that some items will balance out a lot more than they are now. For instance, I do not expect master blacksmith items to continue to sell for 200 gold, nor would I expect them to ever be given away.
But, it is too early to do anythign to change the economy at this point, as it is unknown what value things have in relation to others as soo many are masters in various skills.
I have only made 2 tweaks specifically to the economy, on player requests which I agreed with.
The first one was to introduce the gemcutting skill. This makes gems worth more, which indirectly makes rings worth more. Not sure if this effects the price of gold.
The second one was I changed the price that empty bottles were sold for. Not how much they are bought for by eliza, but how much they are sold for. This was specifically to increase the price of empty bottles as the materials needed to make them being bought meant that the glassblowers were only making 1 gold on each bottle. Almost every other item in the game can be sold (to eliza) for a 2 gold profit.
So, where is the rest of the inflation coming from? From the skill system. People are finding that they can no longer just learn the skill to make something, now it is in their best interest to buy it from someone else.
Whenever a player reset comes, then prices will be exhorbantly high for a time, until a few more learn the skills, then they will balance out. And I beleive that some items will balance out a lot more than they are now. For instance, I do not expect master blacksmith items to continue to sell for 200 gold, nor would I expect them to ever be given away.
But, it is too early to do anythign to change the economy at this point, as it is unknown what value things have in relation to others as soo many are masters in various skills.
Serp said:
On another case: I buy wood for 4g each, and I can make a prophit from it .. other carpenters may complain that they want to buy it for just 3g. I dont see the problem .. I make a prophit from buying at 4g, and if they are 'supposed' to be 'master carpenters' too then they should be able to make a prophit from it too. As long as there is a prophit why is there still a problem, could someone please explain why?
Say gold costs 30g and a ring sells for 200-250g then if rings sell for 250-300g they may be willing to buy gold for 50g so that he beats other people who want to buy gold.This makes gems worth more, which indirectly makes rings worth more. Not sure if this effects the price of gold.
On another case: I buy wood for 4g each, and I can make a prophit from it .. other carpenters may complain that they want to buy it for just 3g. I dont see the problem .. I make a prophit from buying at 4g, and if they are 'supposed' to be 'master carpenters' too then they should be able to make a prophit from it too. As long as there is a prophit why is there still a problem, could someone please explain why?
Hermie I am speaking for everone newbies, skilled people, masters etc. so therefore you may want to read every word I say and I really want everyone not to skim over what I have to say, as I do to everyone else's posts. I used to do this and make a few mistakes 
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Aragon yet another mistake you made I never mentioned what you over work but I mentioned over work in general, though I may still be wrong. 
Yes Serpardum I agree but I dont care how much you buy and sell it for as long as it is controlled because some people get paid more and spend less\more and its in their heads that this costs what ever amount but the real normal market value what ever amount, so you see there lies a part of the problem. You should always remind people what it normally sells for. You see my point now ?
Have a good day everyone.
newbies, skilled people, masters etc. so therefore you may want to read every word I say and I really want everyone not to skim over what I have to say, as I do to everyone else's posts. I used to do this and make a few mistakes . Aragon yet another mistake you made I never mentioned what you over work but I mentioned over work in general, though I may still be wrong. Yes Serpardum I agree but I dont care how much you buy and sell it for as long as it is controlled because some people get paid more and spend less\more and its in their heads that this costs what ever amount but the real normal market value what ever amount, so you see there lies a part of the problem. You should always remind people what it normally sells for. You see my point now
?Have a good day everyone.
What it "normally" sells for. Things don't "normally" sell for any given amount, unless you are selling to Eliza, in which case you are getting a pittance of it's true value.
It is a character/player run economy. The players say how much something is worth. When people were giving away plate mail for free, then plate mail was worth nothing.
We know that plate mail is actually worth quite a bit though, especially to warriors. With the skill change, however, and it becoming harder to become, and maintain, master level, plate mail should be worth a bit more. How much? I can't say, again, it is a player derived economy.
Lets take, for instance, flutes. How much are flutes worth? I would guestimate 500 silver (I've heard prices from 500 to 750 silver). Is this what they "normally" sell for? I doubt it, since they hare hardly ever sold. But that is the value placed on them by some.
It is a character/player run economy. The players say how much something is worth. When people were giving away plate mail for free, then plate mail was worth nothing.
We know that plate mail is actually worth quite a bit though, especially to warriors. With the skill change, however, and it becoming harder to become, and maintain, master level, plate mail should be worth a bit more. How much? I can't say, again, it is a player derived economy.
Lets take, for instance, flutes. How much are flutes worth? I would guestimate 500 silver (I've heard prices from 500 to 750 silver). Is this what they "normally" sell for? I doubt it, since they hare hardly ever sold. But that is the value placed on them by some.