Being able to learn anything should be possible, of course. But it should be impossible to be a master in anything.Being able to learn anything is only logical if you put the time into it. Do you see how illogical it is to have guidelines on what you can and can not learn? So say you learn how to read in real life, then you learn how to write, you learned how to crawl, and you learned how to walk, now you can only learn to speak at 50%. WTF?
Proposals
Moderator: Gamemasters
Richard wrote:
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Richard Cypher
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Please explain why it should be impossible? If someone puts the time and effort into it and does the work why shouldn't they become a master?Rosendil wrote:Richard wrote:Being able to learn anything should be possible, of course. But it should be impossible to be a master in anything.Being able to learn anything is only logical if you put the time into it. Do you see how illogical it is to have guidelines on what you can and can not learn? So say you learn how to read in real life, then you learn how to write, you learned how to crawl, and you learned how to walk, now you can only learn to speak at 50%. WTF?
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Talirea Iomee
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Solution?Rosendil wrote:Being able to learn anything should be possible, of course. But it should be impossible to be a master in anything.
Make it so that once a skill gets 90%+ If you spend more time with another skill, it starts to decrease slowly untill it gets back to 90%
If someone maxes fighting and goes onto smithing, they will be spending alot of time smithing, meanwhile their fighting skills get less good. To maintain both = alot of effort and not really maxing both.
Something like this.
*Edited slightly.*
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Richard Cypher
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I must disagree and point back to my previous arguments and say go for just a faster skill gain by a bit for fighting stats and the way the system is remains the same for everything else. Losing hard earned stats is no fun. Let there still be a skillcap for everyone, to help prevent PGing, but make it slightly easier for those skills. That is all. A very simple thing to do and does not impact the game so momentously as everyone elses crazy proposals.
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Mr. Cromwell
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Training two hours per day? What?
..
Training two hours per day?
..
What?!
Are you supposed to play the game (the roleplaying part) too at some point?
Ahem. Staff, my fellow players. Let me be painfully honest here: Skilling in illarion is boring as hell. It doesn't feel rewarding. It's amazingly uninformative and plain. Anyone who would do that willingly for two hours a day displays some serious masochistic personality traits. Are we lazy? Perhaps, (*I* would say that we just have other priorities) but then again, Illarion has a technical side which is not at par with most other games when it comes to keeping things interesting, flashy and whatnot.
http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 08&start=0
I like that learning system.
You would do whatever and then do the skilling part a little.. and be rewarded for that equally. Sure, everyone would be fed with the same spoon, but even those players who simply don't have what it takes to torture yourself with the technical side of illa would be able to gain bits of skill by actually spending, say, two hours a day for roleplaying.
You could still be gaining more skill if you spent more time online, but there would be less painful "grinding" for that ocasional swirlie that you get.
For the someone who said about people "wanting to be the best". Well, sadly, that's what the illarion fighting system (at least) seems to require. There changes for a person with lower skill to beat up someone with higher skill are extremely slim (to the point of requiring heroic feats of luck or total negligence from the stronger side). That is one thing which I would like to be adjusted slightly. To make the "luck" effect on PvP fights a bit larger. That would maybe do something to those Demigod tanks who are running around without any fear of losing. I'm not saying that everyone should be on the same line or that the Master Swordsman should be vulnerable to the total noob, but more like:
Master Swordsman vs. Average Swordsman = An actual risk involved for both. (Of course, higher risk for the average swordsman)
..And I would like to see a sitiuation where a character having a high non-fighting skill would result in a disadvantage in PvP combat. This would be to give "pure" fighters a slight edge over the Hatmaker-Smith-Miner-Herbalist-Warriors.
Just for the few who mentioned this: I will not accept the "we worked so hard under this system" as an argument against improving the game. That's the kind of stagnated and quite selfish mentality which any community doesn't need. Way to prevent correction of any mistakes or any progress. Tzt.
@Lennier
Yeah, the staff decides what to develop and implement.. However, it takes two to tango. You need to have developers to develop the game, but you also need players to play it. The whole "it's their game, they do whatever they want"-attitude is beyond me. It's the players who have to deal with the "whatever" which is being put in.
If the planned change is really unpopular or raises questions during the implementation.. or even AFTER it.. revision of the staff decision should always be seriously considered (meaning, that they are a real option). Because chances are that the policy, feature, whatever will be changed at some point anyway. If it indeed sucks, then it's only up to how long time the staff needs to aknowledge the mistake and repair it.
When the staff fails to listen to players = magic system.
Enough said. Nobody wants that.
@All
You do need skills for some roles. End of story.
As long as there is a technical side involved, some roles need them.
..
Training two hours per day?
..
What?!
Are you supposed to play the game (the roleplaying part) too at some point?
Ahem. Staff, my fellow players. Let me be painfully honest here: Skilling in illarion is boring as hell. It doesn't feel rewarding. It's amazingly uninformative and plain. Anyone who would do that willingly for two hours a day displays some serious masochistic personality traits. Are we lazy? Perhaps, (*I* would say that we just have other priorities) but then again, Illarion has a technical side which is not at par with most other games when it comes to keeping things interesting, flashy and whatnot.
http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 08&start=0
I like that learning system.
You would do whatever and then do the skilling part a little.. and be rewarded for that equally. Sure, everyone would be fed with the same spoon, but even those players who simply don't have what it takes to torture yourself with the technical side of illa would be able to gain bits of skill by actually spending, say, two hours a day for roleplaying.
You could still be gaining more skill if you spent more time online, but there would be less painful "grinding" for that ocasional swirlie that you get.
For the someone who said about people "wanting to be the best". Well, sadly, that's what the illarion fighting system (at least) seems to require. There changes for a person with lower skill to beat up someone with higher skill are extremely slim (to the point of requiring heroic feats of luck or total negligence from the stronger side). That is one thing which I would like to be adjusted slightly. To make the "luck" effect on PvP fights a bit larger. That would maybe do something to those Demigod tanks who are running around without any fear of losing. I'm not saying that everyone should be on the same line or that the Master Swordsman should be vulnerable to the total noob, but more like:
Master Swordsman vs. Average Swordsman = An actual risk involved for both. (Of course, higher risk for the average swordsman)
..And I would like to see a sitiuation where a character having a high non-fighting skill would result in a disadvantage in PvP combat. This would be to give "pure" fighters a slight edge over the Hatmaker-Smith-Miner-Herbalist-Warriors.
Just for the few who mentioned this: I will not accept the "we worked so hard under this system" as an argument against improving the game. That's the kind of stagnated and quite selfish mentality which any community doesn't need. Way to prevent correction of any mistakes or any progress. Tzt.
@Lennier
Yeah, the staff decides what to develop and implement.. However, it takes two to tango. You need to have developers to develop the game, but you also need players to play it. The whole "it's their game, they do whatever they want"-attitude is beyond me. It's the players who have to deal with the "whatever" which is being put in.
If the planned change is really unpopular or raises questions during the implementation.. or even AFTER it.. revision of the staff decision should always be seriously considered (meaning, that they are a real option). Because chances are that the policy, feature, whatever will be changed at some point anyway. If it indeed sucks, then it's only up to how long time the staff needs to aknowledge the mistake and repair it.
When the staff fails to listen to players = magic system.
Enough said. Nobody wants that.
@All
You do need skills for some roles. End of story.
As long as there is a technical side involved, some roles need them.
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Richard Cypher
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Okay, several things that are ridiculous about your statement. Ever wonder why an Average Swordsman can not beat a Master Swordsman? It could be because the Master is better and has spent more time training so of course he will win. Wow that was a whole lot of like a hard math problem but read it slowly and you might understand what I mean.
Secondly, RP should not affect skillgain. It is something that we incorporate when we train i.e. #me slashes parries dodges etc, but it should not hinge upon it. RP is fun in itself, but only for that reason. People who do not train and bust their asses once should not becom a Master fighter. Man 1: Yeah, I am a Master fighter. Man 2: How did you get so strong what did you fight? Man 1: What is this fighting you speak of? I #me'd until I got enough skill points to become a master fighter.
See why that idea will not work? Now you also mentioned how fighters should have an advantage over a multi skilled person. They do its called their stats. A fighter fights a crafter and has an advantage because of his stats. A fighter fights a mage and has an advantage because of his stats if he can actually hit the mage that is. A mage has an advantage magically to a fighter because of their stats. Do you see where I am going with this?
I will repeat this one more time. The system is fine the way it is for 90% of it. The 10% that should be changed is raise skillgain for fighting stats. So it still takes a good amount of time and effort, but you can actually reach master or near master level eventually. So more fighters can actually get past lvl 62 and fight gnolls and demon skeletons one on one easier because they are getting better then them eventually.
Secondly, RP should not affect skillgain. It is something that we incorporate when we train i.e. #me slashes parries dodges etc, but it should not hinge upon it. RP is fun in itself, but only for that reason. People who do not train and bust their asses once should not becom a Master fighter. Man 1: Yeah, I am a Master fighter. Man 2: How did you get so strong what did you fight? Man 1: What is this fighting you speak of? I #me'd until I got enough skill points to become a master fighter.
See why that idea will not work? Now you also mentioned how fighters should have an advantage over a multi skilled person. They do its called their stats. A fighter fights a crafter and has an advantage because of his stats. A fighter fights a mage and has an advantage because of his stats if he can actually hit the mage that is. A mage has an advantage magically to a fighter because of their stats. Do you see where I am going with this?
I will repeat this one more time. The system is fine the way it is for 90% of it. The 10% that should be changed is raise skillgain for fighting stats. So it still takes a good amount of time and effort, but you can actually reach master or near master level eventually. So more fighters can actually get past lvl 62 and fight gnolls and demon skeletons one on one easier because they are getting better then them eventually.
Just want to say if there is a skill cap, like how many skills you can max out, maybe just change the whole system into a real class system. Where each class only can learn the skills they are assigned to. This way there won't be any "skill point" that might be accidentally wasted by doing something simple. Such as tailors that kill pigs and gained fighting skill (which unwanted when there is such skill cap). Then there won't be a need to decrease skills as well.
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Korm Kormsen
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very nice, how we turned around a threat about the sence of "proposal threads" into a proposal thread! - thread answered: yes, we need proposal threads. 
to the skills:
i know a couple of UO-freeshards with an interesting system.
they function more or less as this:
if there exist a total of, let's say, ten skills. each with 100 skillpoints each.
then the char has a maximum of 600 skillpoints in total.
he starts out learning just normal. whatever he wants.
but he can mark his skills. either as "no more skillgain" or as "let go down, if other gets up"
so, if anytime he changes his interests, having already his full points spent, on further learning, one skill goes up, while another (chosen) goes down.
i think that is a good system, that guarantees a lot of different skilled chars.
to the skills:
i know a couple of UO-freeshards with an interesting system.
they function more or less as this:
if there exist a total of, let's say, ten skills. each with 100 skillpoints each.
then the char has a maximum of 600 skillpoints in total.
he starts out learning just normal. whatever he wants.
but he can mark his skills. either as "no more skillgain" or as "let go down, if other gets up"
so, if anytime he changes his interests, having already his full points spent, on further learning, one skill goes up, while another (chosen) goes down.
i think that is a good system, that guarantees a lot of different skilled chars.
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Richard Cypher
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I will repeat this one more time. The system is fine the way it is for 90% of it. The 10% that should be changed is raise skillgain for fighting stats. So it still takes a good amount of time and effort, but you can actually reach master or near master level eventually. So more fighters can actually get past lvl 62 and fight gnolls and demon skeletons one on one easier because they are getting better then them eventually.
Edit: Who does it hurt if someone wants to spend 3 years to master everything. They should have that right. I mean in real life you dont learn some in one thing and forget another. Or completely prevent your self from learning. I mean Illarion seems to be a real life mix now of Fantasy and actual things.
So people should learn as much as they want whenever they want if they spend their time doing it. Then there are the skillcaps so no Jack of all trades master of every trade will not be seen for atleast 3 years from now ven if someone started on it right this moment with previously accquired stats.
My idea is very simple and requires little effort to do. Where as these other ideas require a whole new system implemented and changes to be made where as no one dislikes, the system now. Crafters are happy since gain for them is easier. Only fighters are unhappy because gain is so slow. So address the real problem and fix it. The way to do that is my idea. Simple yet efficient.
Edit: Who does it hurt if someone wants to spend 3 years to master everything. They should have that right. I mean in real life you dont learn some in one thing and forget another. Or completely prevent your self from learning. I mean Illarion seems to be a real life mix now of Fantasy and actual things.
So people should learn as much as they want whenever they want if they spend their time doing it. Then there are the skillcaps so no Jack of all trades master of every trade will not be seen for atleast 3 years from now ven if someone started on it right this moment with previously accquired stats.
My idea is very simple and requires little effort to do. Where as these other ideas require a whole new system implemented and changes to be made where as no one dislikes, the system now. Crafters are happy since gain for them is easier. Only fighters are unhappy because gain is so slow. So address the real problem and fix it. The way to do that is my idea. Simple yet efficient.
Last edited by Richard Cypher on Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Useful collective information:
Variables that are ALL very important fights:
Luck
Stats
Skills
Items
Number of people
A 100% max fighter will not always beat a 75% fighter.
There is a way YOU can see your characters exact skill level if you haven't been counting "swirlies" all along.
You can get 100% in a fighting skill in 3 months with less than 2 hours a day of training now!
If that helps you in any way, your welcome. If you want more information, I have an msn down there...*points below the post*
Powergaming a fighting skill is not hard, just annoying..
As a side note, I do not have a character with over 80% in a fighting skill.
Variables that are ALL very important fights:
Luck
Stats
Skills
Items
Number of people
A 100% max fighter will not always beat a 75% fighter.
There is a way YOU can see your characters exact skill level if you haven't been counting "swirlies" all along.
You can get 100% in a fighting skill in 3 months with less than 2 hours a day of training now!
If that helps you in any way, your welcome. If you want more information, I have an msn down there...*points below the post*
Powergaming a fighting skill is not hard, just annoying..
As a side note, I do not have a character with over 80% in a fighting skill.
Last edited by Lrmy on Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Achae Eanstray
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I also like this idea: http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 08&start=0
I don't. Maybe a variation of it.Achae Eanstray wrote:I also like this idea: http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 08&start=0
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Achae Eanstray
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possibly suggesting a variation? I like the idea of RP also encouraging skill gain and have played another game this is done with enjoyable results.Lrmy wrote:I don't. Maybe a variation of it.Achae Eanstray wrote:I also like this idea: http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 08&start=0
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Mr. Cromwell
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@Richard Cypher
There is no reason for that hostile tone. If you can't be polite, please refrain from posting. You are taking this far too personal, so chill.
What do you mean "Cannot beat?" He "cannot beat" the master swordsman because of the way the game crunches numbers. So are you saying, that a green belt karate-guy is destined to lose to a black belt karate guy, unless the green-belt karate guy somehow manages to chop the black-belt guy's head off with a critical hit?
Of course there is a chance for weaker person to win. It's just that I find the current system in Illarion to be too simplistic and rare when giving the "chance" (which should be there and a real one) and it hence makes the game too "safe" for some high-end characters. I'm not trying to take anything away from you.
You don't understand the system I referred to. It's not the "RP" which effects your skills. It's just that instead of doing "X-action*X-time=X-Gained Skill" it would be "X-time=X-Gained skill" (simplifiedly).. it's a system just like the one we have now. Nitram is not going to read your logs to determine the RP-amount so he can assign you with the correct amount of skill. However, under the proposed system, even those people with less time can develop some skills (not as much as those with more time) without having to choose between roleplaying or hanging down in the crypts. The current sitiuation isn't some holy commandment we received from the god in stone tablet. A system is a system, and if deemed appropriate it can be changed.
If you wanna grind skeletons all day long, it's just fine under the proposed system. However, no longer would it be necessary. Hell, you could even be "training" for real (Like #me'ing it) which in my eyes is tenfold more worthy of skillgain than ctrl-clicking some dumb NPCs. Maybe that's just me, though.
No, I don't see why it would not work. It can be made to work just like any other system.
About stats:
Firstly, you seem to leave from the assumption that *every* fighter has maxed out stats (if they aren't, then your point is moot).
I'll play along with you, however. Indeed, if one has for instance mage stats.. It does give the fighter a very large advantage (duh). What about a blacksmith/miner then? The stats which are useful for him are not *that* much different from Fighter's stats. Because the fighters these days are often getting the short end of the stick, I'd be willing to give those fighters who are not proficient in any other profession an advantage over those who are. Simply for fairness' sake.
One thing you should think about: This is not real life. This is a game.
There is no reason for that hostile tone. If you can't be polite, please refrain from posting. You are taking this far too personal, so chill.
What do you mean "Cannot beat?" He "cannot beat" the master swordsman because of the way the game crunches numbers. So are you saying, that a green belt karate-guy is destined to lose to a black belt karate guy, unless the green-belt karate guy somehow manages to chop the black-belt guy's head off with a critical hit?
Of course there is a chance for weaker person to win. It's just that I find the current system in Illarion to be too simplistic and rare when giving the "chance" (which should be there and a real one) and it hence makes the game too "safe" for some high-end characters. I'm not trying to take anything away from you.
You don't understand the system I referred to. It's not the "RP" which effects your skills. It's just that instead of doing "X-action*X-time=X-Gained Skill" it would be "X-time=X-Gained skill" (simplifiedly).. it's a system just like the one we have now. Nitram is not going to read your logs to determine the RP-amount so he can assign you with the correct amount of skill. However, under the proposed system, even those people with less time can develop some skills (not as much as those with more time) without having to choose between roleplaying or hanging down in the crypts. The current sitiuation isn't some holy commandment we received from the god in stone tablet. A system is a system, and if deemed appropriate it can be changed.
If you wanna grind skeletons all day long, it's just fine under the proposed system. However, no longer would it be necessary. Hell, you could even be "training" for real (Like #me'ing it) which in my eyes is tenfold more worthy of skillgain than ctrl-clicking some dumb NPCs. Maybe that's just me, though.
No, I don't see why it would not work. It can be made to work just like any other system.
About stats:
Firstly, you seem to leave from the assumption that *every* fighter has maxed out stats (if they aren't, then your point is moot).
I'll play along with you, however. Indeed, if one has for instance mage stats.. It does give the fighter a very large advantage (duh). What about a blacksmith/miner then? The stats which are useful for him are not *that* much different from Fighter's stats. Because the fighters these days are often getting the short end of the stick, I'd be willing to give those fighters who are not proficient in any other profession an advantage over those who are. Simply for fairness' sake.
One thing you should think about: This is not real life. This is a game.
The system is anything but simplistic.Of course there is a chance for weaker person to win. It's just that I find the current system in Illarion to be too simplistic and rare when giving the "chance" (which should be there and a real one) and it hence makes the game too "safe" for some high-end characters. I'm not trying to take anything away from you.
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Richard Cypher
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And when it comes to the blacksmith miner stats guess what it breaks down to? Skills. Might have close to the same stats but not the same skills. their should not be any benefits. That is unfair. No one thing should be special like that.
My whole point for everything Edward is that this is just a game. You are the one who went and said about a green belt and black belt. Of course in RL the green could win, but in a GAME no they can not, or it is supremely harder. Sorry but that is the way it is since it is a game.
No, people should not get stats for RPing since I could sit down and spam RPing for hours whenever I wanted to get skills and it would just present a new form of PGing. People RP as it is for fun because they want to. I RP frequently when I am alone fighting npc's becuase I like the RP in the game.
I also like to have decent skills and see some results for my training. That is why I proposed slightyl faster skillgain for fighting stats. Crafters can gain skills with the new system since they can get 5000 ingots or such and mass produce armor. Fighters can not line up 5000 skeletons and fight them. So a slightly faster gain would balance this out and make the system great.
My whole point for everything Edward is that this is just a game. You are the one who went and said about a green belt and black belt. Of course in RL the green could win, but in a GAME no they can not, or it is supremely harder. Sorry but that is the way it is since it is a game.
No, people should not get stats for RPing since I could sit down and spam RPing for hours whenever I wanted to get skills and it would just present a new form of PGing. People RP as it is for fun because they want to. I RP frequently when I am alone fighting npc's becuase I like the RP in the game.
I also like to have decent skills and see some results for my training. That is why I proposed slightyl faster skillgain for fighting stats. Crafters can gain skills with the new system since they can get 5000 ingots or such and mass produce armor. Fighters can not line up 5000 skeletons and fight them. So a slightly faster gain would balance this out and make the system great.
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Korm Kormsen
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sorry, richard, but this is bullsh....Crafters can gain skills with the new system since they can get 5000 ingots or such and mass produce armor. Fighters can not line up 5000 skeletons and fight them.
a fighter does not need to produce or buy his 5000 sceletons. but ingots are not spawned anywhere, os are they?
You might bring up the point of GMs catching the #me skilling abuse thing. Here is a way for you to get around it. I am sure you can think of more.
#me slashes his weapon just after dodging the man. Then he brings his shield up for a parry as the ax almost hits his head.
I only bring this up because it will happen often if that new system is implemented into the game.
@Krom
I think smithing is easier to level. Fighters need gear, potions, and food BTW.
#me slashes his weapon just after dodging the man. Then he brings his shield up for a parry as the ax almost hits his head.
I only bring this up because it will happen often if that new system is implemented into the game.
@Krom
I think smithing is easier to level. Fighters need gear, potions, and food BTW.
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Mr. Cromwell
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..RP is the new form of PG?
Sorry.. but lol. Are you saying, that it is something which you would not welcome? "Those damned roleplayers sitting up there, chatting.. How can we decrease the amount of RP in the game?"
"Spam RPing for hours"..
Thanks for the post. It has really put things to perspective in regards to who I am arguing with.
Yes, it's a game. And sorry, it can (and should) be changed.
Real life cannot be changed, the game can be (relatively) easily. Just because a thing is so at the moment, doesn't mean that it by default should be so tomorrow. That's not a really good counter-argument, you know.
@Lrmy
What I support is skill-gain while online with the only #me/action/whatever checkups being related to catching possible idlers (without any other punishment that pausing/resetting the skillgain for that session).
In which case I don't really think that the #me-spamming will be an issue, as it gives you no additional yield.
Sorry.. but lol. Are you saying, that it is something which you would not welcome? "Those damned roleplayers sitting up there, chatting.. How can we decrease the amount of RP in the game?"
"Spam RPing for hours"..
Thanks for the post. It has really put things to perspective in regards to who I am arguing with.
Yes, it's a game. And sorry, it can (and should) be changed.
Real life cannot be changed, the game can be (relatively) easily. Just because a thing is so at the moment, doesn't mean that it by default should be so tomorrow. That's not a really good counter-argument, you know.
@Lrmy
What I support is skill-gain while online with the only #me/action/whatever checkups being related to catching possible idlers (without any other punishment that pausing/resetting the skillgain for that session).
In which case I don't really think that the #me-spamming will be an issue, as it gives you no additional yield.
Last edited by Mr. Cromwell on Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Korm Kormsen
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We want them to beFooser wrote:Does the staff want Illarion players to be like Tibia players or not?martin wrote:LOL. Sorry.
So, all you say is: We're not as patient as all the players of Tibia, Ultima Online, Priston Tale and so on.
* More intelligent
* Better educated
* More patient
* Better playing
* More experienced
* Older
* More mature
than Tibia players, so Tibia would be a lower bound. Obviously, some of these conditions are not fulfilled.
Martin
Anybody else get a similar impression?I just wanted to make a note about the slow skill gain. If it took ten years to reach max skill level, it would be fine by me. It is not how strong you are compared to your potential that matters. It is how strong your char is compared to the other chars. As long as everybody has the possibility to gain skill as quickly, without powergaming, I would be happy. This could be achieved by using Andrew's proposal, til we get the new skill system. Lower skill cap, and faster skill gaining results in more time to rp.
Why exactly is it not a good idea? :/
Why exactly is it not a good idea? :/
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Estralis Seborian
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Skill system n'stuff - was: remove the proposal board
I was asked to write down my opinion about the skill gain and the economy. I am just writing down my ver personal current mood, not representing the staff. Here we go:
Skill gain
The current skill system is great. Before you lynch me, I am referring to the system itself, its code and its features. The system offers many ways to tweak it, to change the speed and amount of skill gain and so on. But all those levers are currently switched to "piss off the casual players". I have read (and understood ) the description of the system and I can say, it offers all possibilities to make the game satisfying for everybody, the casual gamer, the hardcore "powergamer" and the "roleplayer", too. Little to no server changes are necessary, it can be tweaked by exchanging some values in the database. But this is not trivial - the values have to be changed in a very clever way, there is no "make skillgain 10% faster"-switch. The system is rather complex, but not too complex. But I better stick to the current way of skill gain before I go into details what I would do.
Skillgain is out of balance right now. One can level up in the beginning in no time, up to around 10-20% of the maximum skill. During some actions, the swirlies come so fast that one can see two of them, short after another. That is rather stupid. I like fast skill gain in the beginning, but this spoils all the fun and when the speed gets slow like hell after that, one is spoiled already and exspects that the fast skill gain goes on. But it does not - skill gain goes down to almost zero. I have calculated that one needs serveral ten-thousands of actions to master a skill, around 70.000 for a magic skill and 40.000 for a crafting skill. These are just average values, there is still lots of random in the calculation. The total values are maybe OK, what is not OK for me is that you can reach level 50 by 10% of the values given above - or better, what I critize is that you spend 90% of the actions for the levels 50-100. And for the levels 1-10, you need only 0.1%.
Enough numbers, compared to the pre-charwipe state, skillgain was made slower by factors, depending on the type of action. For crafting, the factor is around 2, for magic it is around 4, I haven't calculated the factor for fighting, exspect it to be much more than 4. It is possible to adjust the speed of skillgain and the learning curve for the various types of actions, like changing the ratio of skillgain for low levels and high levels. And... we have this nifty anti-everything-and-everyone system called MC-system which slows down skillgain for those who do more than 2 actions in a row in a given time ("skill cap"). The original intention of this system was to make it possible that a "roleplayer" can gain the same amount of skill in some RL-weeks than a "powergamer", for the "powergamer" gets less skill for the numerous actions he does. But the system, as it is tweaked now, hits the casual gamer most.
So, what to do? Our developers are planning to abandon the current system and replace it with a well sounding system. In this system, not the amount of performed actions matters, but the online time spend ingame. So, one who spends 10 hours a day ingame and does few actions gains more skill than somebody who spends 1 hour and clicks all the time. This favours "roleplayers" and encourages to stay ingame, laudable goals. Personally, I would like to play a game with such a skill system, even though I have some concerns about some details of the presented concept and those concerns were not cleaned out by the devs until now. But... do we really need yet another skill system? Is it worth the effort? Will the pros overrule the contras? What I fear, with such a system, the motivation to play this game will decrease. The generation of the good old days, that made this game so unique, liked lvls, phat loot and bashing monsters, but most of all, they liked the RP. Skills and stuff should be a sidenote, that is what Illarion was all about. Or in other words, this would be a system, designed for those who do not care about it, but might demotivate those who made this game so unique and entertaining.
I think we can reach alot by changing the current skillgain system with comparable low effort. Learning by doing was always the concept of Illarion, skillgain through related actions was always motivating and entertaining for me. The motivation decreased when skillgain became slower, the reward for the actions done decreased. Now, when the reward for an action gets ruled out completely by only counting the online time spend ingame, something "big" has to replace the motivation, taken away. Maybe it is the more wise decision not to copy skill systems of hardcore RP-shards but to go the "Illarion-way". With the current skillgain system and slight modifications on the MC-system, I am sure one can accomplish that somebody who clicks all the time and somebody who clicks less and RPs more can get around the same amount of skill in the same time, but does not get nerved by anti-powergaming measures. Also, the shape of the learning curve can be adjusted in any way, so we can speed up the skill gain of e.g. fighters of high levels while we decrease the skill gain of crafters in low levels (just an example).
The problem is: Somebody has to do it. Somebody who has a very good idea how to satisfy the intended audience without spoiling those who care more about skills. Somebody with balls and brains. Somebody with knowledge in C++ to fully understand and modify the server code of the MC-system. Volunteers, step forward...
Economy
On the internal board, I have written dozends of posts and essays, created lots of lists and concepts and still, I am not satisfied with what I was doing. Tweaking the economy is very hard, but again, let me have a look at the current Illaconomy first.
It is not working. We have serveral influences, to name a few, the wear-system, the crafting system, the monster drops and the NPCs. While I think the crafting system itself is great and can also be adjusted in any wanted way (as long as somebody does it), the NPCs are totally out of it / screwed. Only very few items can be sold to NPCs, there seems to be no greater concept behind where you can buy and sell items, the prices the NPCs pay do not even slightly orientate on the value of the items (e.g. leather armor) and quality does not matter for the NPCs while for fighting, quality matters alot. The NPCs demand very high prices for goods that influence the market, the gap between price (sold) and price (bought) is huge. A crafter, who spends many actions and ressources to craft an average sword and gets 5cp for it has to get pissed off, no? Also, as a sidenote, the traders are very complicated to operate, the voice commands are not working properly or are just annoying. We had a graphical menu to buy things with before the charwipe, this was removed and never recovered. Now you open doors far away when you click on something in the trader menu Voice commands are fine and nice and I'd like to keep them, but a graphical menu is common standard in computer games and should at least be an alternative. In other words: I want menus instead of flus and wildfires and diet systems and cows. And chocolate. Apart from these technical details, I think we can make the economy working without having to change too much on the crafting system, the monster drops and other systems by redoing the NPCs alone. Anybody who wants to work out a good concept (not: erm, Eliza should pay 10 cp for serinjahs... and Sam should buy helmets... and let Gambi sells moulds) can count on my support in terms of providing what I made up in the past. But this is not a trivial task, completed in some hours. An economy task force of motivated players and developers would be the best thing to do, but I am not sure wether this will work out or not.
All in all, Illarion offers all the options to make it a great game. But as the original author of the topic mentioned, not all changes done improved the game and some make it even worse. In fact, changes with the intention to make the game better turned out to achieve the opposite, as well as some totally unnecessary changes caused new problems without old problems being solved. And we have the term "kaputtreparieren", meaning, that somebody wants to fix a system that does not work perfectly and implements a state that works even worse than the original system. Maybe problem A was solved, but problem B and C arose.
OK, this post isn't the big essay I wanted to write, but some points were expressed (note that english is not my native language). I want to close with the good old "car analogy" as martin introduced it: We have a very nice car, even tough it is stuck in the mud. Instead of adding cup holders, a sat nav with a manual of 200 pages and a CD player, we should pull the car out of the mud, all together and bring it back on the road.
Skill gain
The current skill system is great. Before you lynch me, I am referring to the system itself, its code and its features. The system offers many ways to tweak it, to change the speed and amount of skill gain and so on. But all those levers are currently switched to "piss off the casual players". I have read (and understood
) the description of the system and I can say, it offers all possibilities to make the game satisfying for everybody, the casual gamer, the hardcore "powergamer" and the "roleplayer", too. Little to no server changes are necessary, it can be tweaked by exchanging some values in the database. But this is not trivial - the values have to be changed in a very clever way, there is no "make skillgain 10% faster"-switch. The system is rather complex, but not too complex. But I better stick to the current way of skill gain before I go into details what I would do. Skillgain is out of balance right now. One can level up in the beginning in no time, up to around 10-20% of the maximum skill. During some actions, the swirlies come so fast that one can see two of them, short after another. That is rather stupid. I like fast skill gain in the beginning, but this spoils all the fun and when the speed gets slow like hell after that, one is spoiled already and exspects that the fast skill gain goes on. But it does not - skill gain goes down to almost zero. I have calculated that one needs serveral ten-thousands of actions to master a skill, around 70.000 for a magic skill and 40.000 for a crafting skill. These are just average values, there is still lots of random in the calculation. The total values are maybe OK, what is not OK for me is that you can reach level 50 by 10% of the values given above - or better, what I critize is that you spend 90% of the actions for the levels 50-100. And for the levels 1-10, you need only 0.1%.
Enough numbers, compared to the pre-charwipe state, skillgain was made slower by factors, depending on the type of action. For crafting, the factor is around 2, for magic it is around 4, I haven't calculated the factor for fighting, exspect it to be much more than 4. It is possible to adjust the speed of skillgain and the learning curve for the various types of actions, like changing the ratio of skillgain for low levels and high levels. And... we have this nifty anti-everything-and-everyone system called MC-system which slows down skillgain for those who do more than 2 actions in a row in a given time ("skill cap"). The original intention of this system was to make it possible that a "roleplayer" can gain the same amount of skill in some RL-weeks than a "powergamer", for the "powergamer" gets less skill for the numerous actions he does. But the system, as it is tweaked now, hits the casual gamer most.
So, what to do? Our developers are planning to abandon the current system and replace it with a well sounding system. In this system, not the amount of performed actions matters, but the online time spend ingame. So, one who spends 10 hours a day ingame and does few actions gains more skill than somebody who spends 1 hour and clicks all the time. This favours "roleplayers" and encourages to stay ingame, laudable goals. Personally, I would like to play a game with such a skill system, even though I have some concerns about some details of the presented concept and those concerns were not cleaned out by the devs until now. But... do we really need yet another skill system? Is it worth the effort? Will the pros overrule the contras? What I fear, with such a system, the motivation to play this game will decrease. The generation of the good old days, that made this game so unique, liked lvls, phat loot and bashing monsters, but most of all, they liked the RP. Skills and stuff should be a sidenote, that is what Illarion was all about. Or in other words, this would be a system, designed for those who do not care about it, but might demotivate those who made this game so unique and entertaining.
I think we can reach alot by changing the current skillgain system with comparable low effort. Learning by doing was always the concept of Illarion, skillgain through related actions was always motivating and entertaining for me. The motivation decreased when skillgain became slower, the reward for the actions done decreased. Now, when the reward for an action gets ruled out completely by only counting the online time spend ingame, something "big" has to replace the motivation, taken away. Maybe it is the more wise decision not to copy skill systems of hardcore RP-shards but to go the "Illarion-way". With the current skillgain system and slight modifications on the MC-system, I am sure one can accomplish that somebody who clicks all the time and somebody who clicks less and RPs more can get around the same amount of skill in the same time, but does not get nerved by anti-powergaming measures. Also, the shape of the learning curve can be adjusted in any way, so we can speed up the skill gain of e.g. fighters of high levels while we decrease the skill gain of crafters in low levels (just an example).
The problem is: Somebody has to do it. Somebody who has a very good idea how to satisfy the intended audience without spoiling those who care more about skills. Somebody with balls and brains. Somebody with knowledge in C++ to fully understand and modify the server code of the MC-system. Volunteers, step forward...
Economy
On the internal board, I have written dozends of posts and essays, created lots of lists and concepts and still, I am not satisfied with what I was doing. Tweaking the economy is very hard, but again, let me have a look at the current Illaconomy first.
It is not working. We have serveral influences, to name a few, the wear-system, the crafting system, the monster drops and the NPCs. While I think the crafting system itself is great and can also be adjusted in any wanted way (as long as somebody does it), the NPCs are totally out of it / screwed. Only very few items can be sold to NPCs, there seems to be no greater concept behind where you can buy and sell items, the prices the NPCs pay do not even slightly orientate on the value of the items (e.g. leather armor) and quality does not matter for the NPCs while for fighting, quality matters alot. The NPCs demand very high prices for goods that influence the market, the gap between price (sold) and price (bought) is huge. A crafter, who spends many actions and ressources to craft an average sword and gets 5cp for it has to get pissed off, no? Also, as a sidenote, the traders are very complicated to operate, the voice commands are not working properly or are just annoying. We had a graphical menu to buy things with before the charwipe, this was removed and never recovered. Now you open doors far away when you click on something in the trader menu
Voice commands are fine and nice and I'd like to keep them, but a graphical menu is common standard in computer games and should at least be an alternative. In other words: I want menus instead of flus and wildfires and diet systems and cows. And chocolate. Apart from these technical details, I think we can make the economy working without having to change too much on the crafting system, the monster drops and other systems by redoing the NPCs alone. Anybody who wants to work out a good concept (not: erm, Eliza should pay 10 cp for serinjahs... and Sam should buy helmets... and let Gambi sells moulds) can count on my support in terms of providing what I made up in the past. But this is not a trivial task, completed in some hours. An economy task force of motivated players and developers would be the best thing to do, but I am not sure wether this will work out or not.All in all, Illarion offers all the options to make it a great game. But as the original author of the topic mentioned, not all changes done improved the game and some make it even worse. In fact, changes with the intention to make the game better turned out to achieve the opposite, as well as some totally unnecessary changes caused new problems without old problems being solved. And we have the term "kaputtreparieren", meaning, that somebody wants to fix a system that does not work perfectly and implements a state that works even worse than the original system. Maybe problem A was solved, but problem B and C arose.
OK, this post isn't the big essay I wanted to write, but some points were expressed (note that english is not my native language). I want to close with the good old "car analogy" as martin introduced it: We have a very nice car, even tough it is stuck in the mud. Instead of adding cup holders, a sat nav with a manual of 200 pages and a CD player, we should pull the car out of the mud, all together and bring it back on the road.
Aristeaus wrote:Higher level skill gain requiring you to create objects which require hard to find/gather materials. Not the common ores.
That they require to work in groups to fight the harder creatures to actually get skill gain. Which would mean having to roleplay, to get into these groups as it would simply not be possible to fight them alone.Nitram wrote:That works for crafters maybe. How about fighters and mages?
Simple solution, probably not viable but would be nice.
It would result in people being able to powergame to better than avergae skills but being forced to role play to get any higher.
Sorry for the late reply. Busy busy busy
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Korm Kormsen
- Posts: 2414
- Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:46 pm
- Location: Illarion nordpol, wenns den gibt...
Estralis,
thank you.
(for taking the time and efford, to analyze so profoundly.
if you are right, that the NPC traders, with their not organized appearing items-choice and prices, might have big influence, may i ask you to think about this?
could it help, to make a plan, that previews a certain specialisation of the towns?
(what products are to be made easyly in a town, and wich not?)
then try, that nearly every product will be NPC-bought in every town?
(with price differences - so that those things, the town produces are bought cheap, those not produced locally are bought dear?)
with the analog idea for selling.
thank you.
(for taking the time and efford, to analyze so profoundly.
if you are right, that the NPC traders, with their not organized appearing items-choice and prices, might have big influence, may i ask you to think about this?
could it help, to make a plan, that previews a certain specialisation of the towns?
(what products are to be made easyly in a town, and wich not?)
then try, that nearly every product will be NPC-bought in every town?
(with price differences - so that those things, the town produces are bought cheap, those not produced locally are bought dear?)
with the analog idea for selling.
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Estralis Seborian
- Posts: 12308
- Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:14 pm
- Location: Sir Postalot
- Contact:
Those plans, or better layouts, do exist. They are a bit outdated, for we have some new items, but the general concept is rather complete and sophisticated. However, a plan tends not to script itself And, what is missing, is a price list. The price list(s) I created are worthless for they orientate directly on the stats of the items and those stats were and will be changed over and over again. The funny thing is that I have lots of ideas, but realizing an idea is harder than to make it up.
Edit: The concept of the plans differs a bit to what you wrote, but the main idea is the same: All towns feature certain goods you can buy there and other you can sell there, so that every town gets a unique character. Also, I planned that one is able to sell and buy all goods in two towns, not all of them. Elven wine in Silverbrand? Brrrr! But those are details.
And, what is missing, is a price list. The price list(s) I created are worthless for they orientate directly on the stats of the items and those stats were and will be changed over and over again. The funny thing is that I have lots of ideas, but realizing an idea is harder than to make it up.Edit: The concept of the plans differs a bit to what you wrote, but the main idea is the same: All towns feature certain goods you can buy there and other you can sell there, so that every town gets a unique character. Also, I planned that one is able to sell and buy all goods in two towns, not all of them. Elven wine in Silverbrand? Brrrr! But those are details.
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Korm Kormsen
- Posts: 2414
- Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:46 pm
- Location: Illarion nordpol, wenns den gibt...
but wouldn't that spoil the concept of giving identities to the towns?Also, I planned that one is able to sell and buy all goods in two towns,...
if there are one or two towns, that "have it all", that is, where 90% of all chars will "live". (without travelling) - and without necissity for player-merchants.
edit: or did i missunderstand you?
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Estralis Seborian
- Posts: 12308
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Japp. I ment: You can buy e.g. a serinjahsword in two different towns and sell it in two towns, not necessarely the same as above. Example:
You can sell serinjahswords in Varshikar and Silverbrand. You can buy serinjahswords in Silverbrand and in Greenbriar. Not: You can buy and sell all stuff in Greenbriar and Troll's Bane while you can only trade certain goods in other towns.
Note that this is hard to accomplish and should be regarded a guideline, only. Some items simply do not fit for more than one town and some items, like bags, fit for many towns.
You can sell serinjahswords in Varshikar and Silverbrand. You can buy serinjahswords in Silverbrand and in Greenbriar. Not: You can buy and sell all stuff in Greenbriar and Troll's Bane while you can only trade certain goods in other towns.
Note that this is hard to accomplish and should be regarded a guideline, only. Some items simply do not fit for more than one town and some items, like bags, fit for many towns.