Proposals

[Lance Thunnigan]

So, there was one argument aye.
Then afterwards, he says, 'Im done scripting this, anything else?' or some shit like that.

After that, the complaints start coming in.
After seeing them, could you NOT put the damn thing into effect?
From what I saw, nobody really wanted it.
As Cromwell put it, 'It's completely useless.'

[Pellandria]

The problem is, that i do not really understand what the problem with a low skillgain is. You get better slowly. Thats not the problem. You still get better. You can fight better, or you can make new things. That you can't learn everything a smith could make within a week is logically.

The problem is, that you waste hours and hours to get better, its not the problem that the skill gain is low, thats ok, but its so low, that you always need to ask yourself if you are even get better, without wasting hours on it, if you dislike fast learning make a small skillcap, but let the people learn faster, so you won't take weeks to learn something new.

And the explanation "oh the skills are hard to get so i have to powergame all the time and can't roleplay" its the most crappy explanation possible.

No its not, as the system is you need hoards of ressources to atleast start doing something, if you don't have luck and find someone who is willing to come with you and work, so you can atleast rp or talk, you will be standing there and click once in a while, because rp alone is boring.

You don't HAVE to get good skills, you can roleplay without.

Thats only one half of the truth, if you want to play your char to "be" someone, except a beggar or thief, you need to have skills, whats good if you rp a smith if you have no skill there?

Just just can't play the great "i-one-hit-kill-everyone" warrior from the beginning on. But you CAN roleplay how your char is SLOWLY becomming one.

I want to know your definition of "slowly becoming one" I like this game, but I also need skills to be what my char normally would be, so instead of rp'ing I gotta sit somewhere and work/skill silenty.

I don't get it why the player over rate that messages so badly. The mean of that messages is not that your character get wounded nearly to death. The use it that the work is interrupted and those messages came up for me as ideas first. If you have better proposals for more "harmless" messages, feel free to write me a pm.

Its maybe not the message itself its more or less the amout of these messages, sometimes your work gets interrupted several times and then you still fail your work regulary, now we may not have this "click=work" like before but "click->wait->some failure message->click again-> wait..." Guess you get it, maybe tune the failures down.

[Taeryon Silverlight]

Alex wasn't the only one to complain about the magic teacher npcs. Basically, I think that every player who actually plays a mage complained about it or thinks that it is crap. Most of the current apprentices (meaning those who startet about march - may 07) and want to, will be teachers in about 5 - 10 weeks. That's not that much time to wait anymore. And since you said you want the magic teachers to give them the chance to learn anything, while the current pc-teachers are still busy, those NPCs seem to be a crappy idea. It will take longer to make those NPC-teachers and stuff, than to wait for the new teachers to come up.

Edit:
Actually, you call the "new" teaching system crappy, before you even waited for it to actually start.

[abcfantasy]

Quickening skill gain and lowering skill cap might help, though I'm not sure. I fear we could end up with loads of all mighty warriors, warriors that cook/smith for themselves and stuff.

[Lance Thunnigan]

But I sure as hell bet that RP quality, and quantity would increase.
Players would be able to RP their character as they want,
As Illarion says they can be played.

[Taeryon Silverlight]

Let the skillgain-speed like it is but remove the skill cap. Then those, who invest more time to the game, will have the betters skills. But would also help those, who are able to play only once a week or so. When someone can only play on Saturday, he won't have the change to get as many skill ups as the others, due to the skillcap that comes up after some time. Well, sucky description of mine, but I think you get what I mean

[Keikan Hiru]

March to October = 8 months.
Somehow I have the feeling I waited long enough.

It takes me about 4 or 6 hours to create the NPC teacher I talked about once I compiled the concept from all proposals.
This means I'll probably do it this weekend.

But thats the last post of me on the topic of magic.

[abcfantasy]

@Lance: I'm not sure about the RP. I think there'll be an increased ctrl+clicking with no RP, many bulging in any and all quests not for the fun but for some rewards or anything just because they're strong, some crafts may be boring to play since others will do it themselves (like warrior cooks). But then again, I can't be 100% sure.

@Taeryon: That wouldn't solve any problems, I'm sorry. I wouldn't want to see someone who can only play on Saturday spend all his time training :\ Spend an hour or two training, rest RPing, and with time the char will develop.

[Lance Thunnigan]

<3's Keikan.

[Nitram]

So, there was one argument aye.

Completely useless system in my opinion ... maybe enhance the existing system so that you can feel thirst ... secondly remove that bars that indicate hitpoints (what a silly term) and hunger.

The indicator that I am hungry is my growling stomach ... if I feel thirsty, my mouth is dry ... if I am ill or hurt, I feel weak ... if I am hurt too much, I'll break down ...

That was the only argument against. Supported by noone of the ones who wrote after. A argument that does not get any support at all isn't something that is considered as good point.

Then afterwards, he says, 'Im done scripting this, anything else?' or some shit like that.

The second call ( i would not even do something like calling for more input after i'm done with coding something ) for some input. After the first proposal of this kind was stated out as supported by the players.

After that, the complaints start coming in.
After seeing them, could you NOT put the damn thing into effect?
From what I saw, nobody really wanted it.
As Cromwell put it, 'It's completely useless.'

The complainment started after everything was done. The first complainments were completly invalid since the players did not understand the proposal. The thing was explained again.

Noone wanted it? Why did noone say something before we "wasted" our time developing something that is not wanted? Be sure that active systems that were developed because the players said nothing against it will allways come into the game as soon as the developemt is done.

Edit:
Actually, you call the "new" teaching system crappy, before you even waited for it to actually start.

We waited only one year. Pretty short of cause. But i think a good part of the players will agree that this time of waiting is pretty enougth. Only the few mages we got and those who had the luck to get a teacher, will disagree in that.

Nitram

[Dariya]

I agree to some points mentioned here, which I don't want to repeat nor explain all, just kind of summarise what came to my mind while reading the posts above:

some changes are good, some are not, not everyone can like everything, the devs cannot meet everyone's expectation. They are doing a great job, which - as I think - most of the players do appreciate ...
BUT ...

Buts its not that the scripters realize every single proposal there. We think about them. IF they are good we realize them or put the good parts into our own concepts.

I read many proposals, some of the posts completely, with some I only read the title and go like "oh no please"
I was often close to just posting "come on, don't overdo it with your proposals" but kept away from it because I don't play that often anymore, also to reasons already mentioned earlier in this topic. So I thought "what the heck, let them propose, let them implement that stuff, if I don't like it, I won't play anymore at all" ... my mistake, my fault. But I also had the impression that just players posting some short comment like "I don't like that, please don't implement this" are not taken serious if they cannot counter-argue with highly mathematic formulas or disprove the correctness or use of those formulas posted with suggestions.
I got the impression, that people posting there got a clue of scripting, which I don't have at all, I am a simple dump player. Don't get me wrong, I am sure you guys are doing a great job in supporting the staff with ideas and helping hands, nevertheless, this proposal board from the beginning never seemed to be like being made for simple players like me.

How about this: if an idea seems workable and nice to maybe be scripted and implemented and the devs think about this seriously, you would do a poll among the players, just voting "yes, I like that" or "no, don't like it to be implemented" without further long discussions (those where already held on the proposal board). Then every "dumb" player like me could give his/her opinion, and if s/he didn't take that chance, it's his/her problem.

This would spare players like me to read all of that "technical / scripting" stuff, which I truly mainly don't really get, but just give his/her opinion.

And the explanation "oh the skills are hard to get so i have to powergame all the time and can't roleplay" its the most crappy explanation possible. You don't HAVE to get good skills, you can roleplay without. That shouldn't be a problem.

But it often IS a problem, Nitram. Let me explain it in short, maybe a bit exaggerated words, to put it simple:
new char entering the game, no skills at all, starts let's say crafting to earn his/her living ... and yes, s/he has to, because without money no food, no equipment, no tools, nothing at all ... sometimes you might find a char who is friendly and willing to give you some stuff for free, but don't rely on that.
Sure, you CAN roleplay without skills, but you cannot really "survive" in a comfortable way to make this game fun.
You cannot just eat apples, alright, seems fair to support the cooks. But if you cannot earn money, you simply cannot afford meals!
I remember times when a new char could earn his/her living with crafting plated, bowls, cooking spoons to buy something to eat. You wouldn't get rich, but you could easily survive and still have fun and lots of time rping. Sorry, but I don't see that anymore.
These days you truly DO need skills!

Aaand ... sorry to say this: the new crafting system was implemented to push trading. Very nice idea, I truly love that. But his obviously didn't really work out.
Did you take a look at the prices since the new system was implemented? A "normal" char with just average or even lower skills simply cannot afford to buy stuff s/he need for doing his/her job. Thus, many chars skill many abilities to be able to produce many items themselves.
So in my opinion we DO have the "Smith-Carpenter-Tailor-Warriors".


That was more than I originally wanted to say, but this is my opinion. And no, I don't have a solution. I won't stop playing, but the fun really decreased due to players rushing around being busy, having no time to rp or maybe feeling like having to catch up with skills of other players. But well, mabe I am simply too stubborn to see the fun in this

[Llama]

You don't HAVE to get good skills, you can roleplay without.

Ok, lets say I'm a smith.

I am only a 'casual' smith, I work very little, and I spend most of the time roleplaying. I don't go to mine 50 ore and 50 coal each day, I either buy with money i got from (??!?!?!?), or do it rarely.

Now at medium levels, if you want to level up, you need to make armour, lots of armour, armour which takes 30 or so ingots to make (without failure) and leather.

Result: I take AGES to level up, and make low quality items, items which very few people buy.
----
Ok lets say I'm also a smith

I am a 'powergaming' smith, I work most of the day, and roleplay at rare moments. I grab a cow each day, dig until there aren't any rocks left, and then smith it all.

I have enough resources to keep on levelling even through the 'armour making' stages.

Result: I level up quickly. People will buy 'very good/excellent' helmets from me, instead of the Rping smith who sells rubbish quality. I get a lot of money...
-----

[Nitram]

Okay. Even if you need skills these days.

What to do?

Only solution i can think of - raise the skillgain.

Result will be that the rp smith will still sell his average ( not crappy anymore ) helmets and the powergamer smith instead will sell his excellent elven silversteel. The positive thing is that he does not sell helmets anymore.

Any other ( possible ) solutions for that problem?

Nitram

[Aristeaus]

Higher level skill gain requiring you to create objects which require hard to find/gather materials. Not the common ores.

[Nitram]

That works for crafters maybe. How about fighters and mages?

[ThisGuy]

Higher level skill gain requiring you to create objects which require hard to find/gather materials. Not the common ores.

wouldn't that mean the person powergaming would still be better than the RPer since they would mine more often and find the rarer materials?

I have been playing a few days now, I'll admit I tried to powergame a bit chopping down every tree I could find and cutting it into boards, but all my skills are still at the level they started at(or appear to be)

my language skills are yellow and all my craft skills are blue the exact same color blue as my smithing(which I can't afford to do)

I think a suggestion that would work to stop powergaming would be to limit the amount you can raise a skill in a day so someone who plays for 13 hours a day doing nothing but mining wouldn't have mastered mining quicker than someone who played for 3-5 hours a day who mined some but mostly RPed(same system would work for fighters and mages)

[Nitram]

The ones who are longer in the game shall get the advantage to get more skill points. If you play less, you get less. I think thats the way it goes... and this shouldn't change.

[Deuce]

I think it would really suck if skill gain was too damn easy, and annoy the hell out of those that have spent the time and effort with the current system, in the end it would just take the fun (by fun, i really mean purpose and drive it gives you to succeed) out of it as everyone would be uber everything( newbies joining with no clue, running around dominating) and it would become boring and runeScape'ish.

I think people are just asking for an easy ride here, dont expect to play a month, or a week and become the strongest warrior, or greatest smith in all the land. Like Nitram said it can be rp'd, and thats what this game is all about isn't it? I understand that its impossible to rp with a warrior with no skills around a war like the one with trolls bane, but when things like this happen you just have to take it on the chin and practice untill you are good enough, because it IS possible.

Everything has to develop, and be experimented with to become better over time, with trial and error, and personally i dont think alot of people are giving it the chance to. This game has no 'real' limit as it where, so why would you like to give it one?
I wouldnt be surprised if the old system was still in place and everyone was complaining that it hadnt changed.

Patience is a virtue, think about it.

[Retlak]

We're not talking about making skill gain uber easy as you put it. It will still take effort of course, just not impossible and time wasting.

People who have spent time and effort with the current system won't get annoyed with a suddenly slightly easier system, because we are the ones here complaining who started this thread.

We're not here for an easy ride, we're here for a POSSIBLE ride, which at the moment because near impossible in higher skill areas. It's a waste of time, it isn't fun, raising the skill gain is the way foreward in my eyes.

[Lennier]

Back to the main topic

I think the proposal board should be removed. The proposal board is helping to ruin Illarion.

Have to disagree with this "proposal" to remove the proposal board. The wish to delete the board would mean, to accept that nearly all kind of developement of the game in interaction with ideas of players would be stoped.

Or that the development itself would be stoped. It can not be your aim, that Illarions has no development anymore. And it should be in interest of the players to can make proposals within this endless history of changes.

Most of these new changes in the game are just making it more difficult.

It is part of all development of a game, to find new and more features, which make it more "complex" in general.

If i interprete right, you mean, that some changes are too much difficult or too much complex, and that you get the feeling to lose the overview about everything....

In this kind i would agree. But it is kind of developing too. How do we can inform players and chars about the complex world? More information at the webpage? More and new books?

[AlexRose]

0.001% of Illarions community that is called "AlexRose"

Um... last time I checked there weren't 100,000 people in Illarion's community. And I wasn't alone. Anyway, I'll let it slide.

[Deuce]

@Retlak - I have a bad tendancy to skim through things and write what comes in my head at the given time .

but yeah, i agree with you there, slightly easier would make everyone happier...Just not too easy

[abcfantasy]

A problem with skill gaining is that you need to train for hours and hours (spread over days and weeks etc...) to become good in a certain skill. Now, the fact that it takes long to expertise in some skill is not bad in itself.

So, wouldn't it be better if we needed (and could) train less, but still need like between 1 to 3 months to become very good in a certain skill? I think this can be easily achieved with quickening skill gaining, and only allow players to train between 1 to 3 hours a day.

Taking for example spending 1 hour a day training, one could become very good (green or a little more I would guess) in around two months. The time it takes and stuff might need to be adjusted a bit of course.

But this way, you will still need quite some time to be good in a skill, but no need for several hours a day. Also, I guess this might narrow the difference between occassional gamers and powergamers.

What do you think about that?

------------

Now, there may be a problem that a char who spends months IG may become quite good in many skills (which is not as bad, since much time is needed). If this needs to be solved, something like a cap may be put in. Or for example, one may have up to 3 fighting skills and 1 crafting skill (rest can be capped to average skill maybe?). Or just 3 crafting skills and rest can be capped to average.

I'm still a bit unsure about this last point, maybe it needs a litte more reconsidering.

[Retlak]

I think the most agreed and possible scenario here IS increasing the skill gain. But as Nitram said before:

Only solution i can think of - raise the skillgain.

Result will be that the rp smith will still sell his average ( not crappy anymore ) helmets and the powergamer smith instead will sell his excellent elven silversteel. The positive thing is that he does not sell helmets anymore.

Any other ( possible ) solutions for that problem?

To be honest i think this is already solved in my eyes. Fighters have no easy way of gaining coin anymore, meaning they won't exactly be buying excellent items all the time, most will go to the worst dwarf and buy the decent affordable item. The all time rich warriors will buy the better stuff. It stays pretty even.

[Juliana D'cheyne]

Skill IMO was easier to learn before, and a lot more fun when you actually had some skill in order to be able to RP what you would like your char to be.

I agree with Pella and Dariya on their posts

I also could RP better doing a skill at the same time when I didn't have to go to a table to do it. Yesterday, Achae made dye, which was interrupted so many times that she could hardly RP with one char standing right next to her. Every time he handed her a bucket of water, her work was interrupted. And she could not RP with the other char who was making the buckets because they were at another table. I had to scroll to see how many times "work was continued", then after a pause check the dye to see if was partial or full. If checked too soon, the work would be interrupted again.

The suggestion of limiting the number of skills a char could have, or allowing the char to raise and lower their own skills with a point skill cap was an idea due to the concern of a char having max skills in everything. However, none of my chars would be interested in it, but if I met a char ig that was like that, it would not affect my RP, nor bother me.


As far as the proposals..... I would like to see actually being able to vote on those that the dev's think might be actually implemented. Some things I may be against or for but just not write anything due to some reasons mentioned before, thinking that the proposal won't/will be implemented anyway, or simply not have time for a well thought out post/counter post etc.

As an aside:

1. As far as changing the skill and the effect it would have on my chars, it would not bother me at all.

2. As far as the mage NPC, my char is an apprentice, and I am all for it. My ONLY concern was the ancient.

3. Andrew, that seems like a good idea to me.

4. Ideally, I would like to see a mage student have an easier time becoming what they want to RP as, a fighter having an easier time getting the supplies they need to RP a fighter, a crafter having an easier time making something. How that is implemented though, I wouldn't know.


(This is just one "vote"/idea for a couple of points in the thread and that is all it is. )

[nmaguire]

I think the most agreed and possible scenario here IS increasing the skill gain. But as Nitram said before:

Only solution i can think of - raise the skillgain.

Result will be that the rp smith will still sell his average ( not crappy anymore ) helmets and the powergamer smith instead will sell his excellent elven silversteel. The positive thing is that he does not sell helmets anymore.

Any other ( possible ) solutions for that problem?

To be honest i think this is already solved in my eyes. Fighters have no easy way of gaining coin anymore, meaning they won't exactly be buying excellent items all the time, most will go to the worst dwarf and buy the decent affordable item. The all time rich warriors will buy the better stuff. It stays pretty even.

I think increasing the skillgain is a good idea too

[Christiana]

i think the skill system is fine, BUT its annoying if you have to click that much. but i assume it was planned that you work until you have no material, but its to difficult to code?

[pharse]

I don´t like the idea that everyone can "vote" if a proposal should be implemented or not, for the simple reason that many players either don´t take the trouble or just aren´t able to completely realize and understand a proposal which would lead often to refused proposals although they are great (but with a bit complex core).

I also don´t like comments like "Oh that is just crap, this doesn´t solve the problem, dump that shit. But fix the problem anyway!! OR: But try it like [insert any unrealisitc idea]!!!"

Since he directly offended myself I can name PO Lance Thunnigan as such a person I mentioned above. Just whining, moaning, complaining is the right way to demotivate all relevant persons. If that is what you want, congratulations, you are doing a great job.

Actually the proposals board is great - if used properly.

If you think all those new features are too complex for newbies, don´t complain, write a good guide instead.

But stopping the development is silly, same for just complaining about new, too realistic features. Then DO something, edit those features, bring forward your own ideas.
Everything else is just ridiculous (as being picky on some freaking details just to rant again and again. Grow up.)

-I´m out.

[Gro'bul]

As far as skillgain goes in crafting, I think the production steps should be decreased to whatever a resource gathering step is. No crafter who is in a production craft will EVER reach the skill cap solely by making things because it takes so much time. He looses too many mc points through the time of the step, and random interrupts. Personally I like the skill cap alot, but if people can reach the skill cap then go rp KNOWING they have gained skill (even if its not enough to gain a skill point) , I think thats the best option. Not everyone can simply use a command to check the statistics of their character.

[Lance Thunnigan]

I don´t like the idea that everyone can "vote" if a proposal should be implemented or not, for the simple reason that many players either don´t take the trouble or just aren´t able to completely realize and understand a proposal which would lead often to refused proposals although they are great (but with a bit complex core).

I also don´t like comments like "Oh that is just crap, this doesn´t solve the problem, dump that shit. But fix the problem anyway!! OR: But try it like [insert any unrealisitc idea]!!!"

Since he directly offended myself I can name PO Lance Thunnigan as such a person I mentioned above. Just whining, moaning, complaining is the right way to demotivate all relevant persons. If that is what you want, congratulations, you are doing a great job.

Actually the proposals board is great - if used properly.

If you think all those new features are too complex for newbies, don´t complain, write a good guide instead.

But stopping the development is silly, same for just complaining about new, too realistic features. Then DO something, edit those features, bring forward your own ideas.
Everything else is just ridiculous (as being picky on some freaking details just to rant again and again. Grow up.)

-I´m out.

Oh get over yourself, Christ.
You're only pissed off because the vast majority people think what you've scripted is useless.

Well all I have to say on that is get over it, and keep on doing what you're doing.
If people don't like it, deal. It's simple.