Charcoal

[Llama]

This suggestion is a 'process' by which coal may be obtained, without the need to mine it from the earth.

A new skill, "Charcoal Making", and uses the furnace to work. Charcoal making will convert logs to charcoal, the amount of yield depending on the skill of the maker.

At 0% for example, I'm seeing things on the line of 3 wood to get 1 coal, while at 100%, 1 wood would give you say 5 pieces of coal.

Charcoal is just the name, it is identical (gamewise/graphicswise) to coal...

[Jupiter]

I think that isn't really necessary. It's not a bad idea, but we don't need it.

[AlexRose]

So you have to cut down trees and mine for some coal to start the furnace to make coal.

Seems an unnecessary addition.

[nmaguire]

I like it, strangely enough Would save a long trek to the mines.

[Llama]

So you have to cut down trees and mine for some coal to start the furnace to make coal.

Yep...

You'll need the beginning coal to heat up the furnace...

This makes for a pretty wasteful skill in the beginning, but if you keep going, you'll get more coal then miners...

[Pellandria]

I like it, this would be usefull, if the dwarfs ever seal up silverbrand or the mines collaps, this would have sense ig, because people tend to search other ways to get ressources anyway.

[Keikan Hiru]

From a game-eco point of view this is no good idea.

In order to create somekind of trade one reagion always needs one abundant and easy accessable resource and a lack of another (which is abundant elsewhere).

Creating alternative ways of recieving a ressource is contra productive.
Its only a valueable addition if it takes the same affort (time/money/etc.) as going to the region where its abundant, so trade is the easy way.

[Llama]

From a game-eco point of view this is no good idea.

In order to create somekind of trade one reagion always needs one abundant and easy accessable resource and a lack of another (which is abundant elsewhere).

The problem is, coal is needed for a lot of things, and smithing stuff is already expensive enough for the buyers without the smiths themselves needing to IMPORT the coal.

There is wood everywhere, and training up a skill like this would be 'expensive' (not to mention you;d use LUMBERJACKING AND MINING)...

So it balances out in the end...

[Keikan Hiru]

The problem is, coal is needed for a lot of things, and smithing stuff is already expensive enough for the buyers without the smiths themselves needing to IMPORT the coal.

This is called: Trade / Interaction between players
It might be suprising, but this is somehow a wanted effect.

So it balances out in the end...

A bold claim that I do not share.

[Llama]

You DO know how much coal it takes to do anything...

If a person were to buy coal, it'll make for very expensive sold goods

And there's a huge lot of goods which need coal, tools weapons and armour.

Trees grow everywhere, pigs can be bought by towns for 10 silvers... I don't see why mining operations have to be localised

[Keikan Hiru]

Because:

In order to create somekind of trade one reagion always needs one abundant and easy accessable resource and a lack of another (which is abundant elsewhere).

You arn't actually paying attention to me, are you?

[Llama]

I did pay attention to you...

'Resources' Are

Leather [found everywhere]
Wood [found everywhere]
Wool [found everywhere]
Sand [found in certain areas]
Ores [found in silverbrand, trollsbane, north]
Coal [found in north, silverbrand]
Fish [found everywhere]
Vegetables [can be grown everywhere]
Fruit [found everywhere]

I fail to see where the 'region which has one abundant and easy accessable resource' is... since you can find most resources everywhere...

[Keikan Hiru]

You've got one very generalistic aproach on this matter.

First of all I never claimed the system 'as its now' is perfect or contributing greatly to the trade problem.

There are some more ressources then you listed, but I'm currently to lazy to read through all the aviable items.
But you got one observation right, most of them are aviable at different places, thus this eliminates the need to trade (town to town trade).

Now you want to add coal to more places, or better said, make it aviable everywhere?
You are not improving the situation with that.

In my ideal world there would be:
A gold mine in/next to Varshikar
A iron mine in/next to Silberbrand
A coal mine in/next to Trolls Bane
Special wood in/next to Vanima
Special [something] at Greenbriar

Its not, but you try to even move further away from this.
Your 'logic' is beyond me.

[Llama]

My argument is, that coal is too valueable in too great amounts to be given to just ONE town...

If you want special ores avalible for silverbrand so be it, but don't make it that every smith has to be a dwarf, or has to buy coal in bulk from a dwarf...

Neither does it make it that every carpenter has to be elvish (to get the vanima wood)...

Special things MAY be tied to a town, but something basic as coal isn't something I'd like to see.

[Jonno]

Also, logically, you argue about his trade stuff. The point is that it seems that currently, at least, only one city has any distinct trade advantage over another, which does not promote trade between the towns in the slightest.

[Gro'bul]

Making charcoal out of wood is period, and certainly works. The problem is that making charcoal is a matter of controlling the air flow, and medieval people basically just made huge mounds of wood and covered it with earth. So I don't know how you would show that ig.

[Mr. Cromwell]

In my ideal world there would be:
A gold mine in/next to Varshikar
A iron mine in/next to Silberbrand
A coal mine in/next to Trolls Bane
Special wood in/next to Vanima
Special [something] at Greenbriar

That would require a lot of players, methinks.. At least in the case of 'closed' cities such as Silverbrand. While I think that it's fair to give advantage to certain cities when it comes to the gathering of basic resources (such as: Better availability, Closer distance to a depot.. such things would have to be discussed thoroughly before implementation so the effects are really understood, instead of just f'ing around), I don't think that giving a virtual monopoly is a good thing. We tried it with coal and silverbrand back in the day (even though mining was more pain in the butt then) and we ended up with a sitiuation where the dwarves were unable to supply quantites large enough to satisfy the demand. That's not really fun thing, since then there is an island full of people who can't get the basic commodities.. and this game is about fun.

Anyway, I can see this happening with 'supplementary' goods such as gold. However, it doesn't feel right for my sense of fairness that only one town/establishment is given such an advantage to just one arbitary group of people (especially Varshikar at the moment, which is flourishing already as far as the player towns are concerned) while leaving others with nothing comparable. There should be maybe an actual discussion about this somewhere..

[Keikan Hiru]

one abundant and easy accessable resource

Don't forget the bolded part.
Maybe I should have added the "for everyone" part.
Thats where the Silverbrand-thing failed in my opinion.

Of course not as easy as back in the days were we stood on the rock-tiles, right next to a depot, and clicked our fingers sore, but something in this general direction.

It should simply be the decission:
'Do I go up to Varshikar to do some gold mining, and afterwards to Trollsbane to get the coal? Or am I simply buying the coal from TB and stay in Varshikar?'

Now that our depots finaly unlink from Trollsbane, I guess its the perfect time to discuss local advantages and disadvantages.
(I sooo want to see cow treks over small island.)

Also, I would refrain from using the "we are too less people"-argument.
We can't tailor a system that is maded for 20people max just to change it again when 50 people play, only to change it once more when we have peaks of 100.

[Mr. Cromwell]

Yeah, but we can't have a system that is designed for 100 people when we have 20, since chances are that in such case we'll never have 100 because people get frustrated with the unfunctioning system and leave..

But yeah, we really should discuss local advantages and disadvantages. Maybe there should be a discussion-group for that?

That could also encourage people to actually become citizens and give a damn about Troll's bane as well. We haven't really seen much progress in that respect..

(And it doesn't help when the one in charge of the town spends her time mingling with the slimy Varshikari constantly. *slaps siltaris with a large trout* ..We need another rebellion. )

[Cliu Beothach]

Because:

In order to create somekind of trade one reagion always needs one abundant and easy accessable resource and a lack of another (which is abundant elsewhere).

You arn't actually paying attention to me, are you?

So, how is this turning out so far?

[Korm Kormsen]

i am strongly in favour of different resources for the towns (hoping, northmark will be included )

and i am in favour of a system made for a bigger number of players.
and to make it manageable now, with few players, we could use NPCs.
let NPCs sell every raw-material in every town.
BUT, let them sell very dear!
example:
iron ore can be mined exclusively in/near siverbrand.
in every other town the NPCs sell iron ore. but at a price, that equals the estimated costs for traveling to and from Sb, plus the time and food needed, to mine it, plus a little "extra" - to leave profit for traveling character-merchants.

result: everybody has access to ironore. but one has options, where, at what price to get it.

back to coal: if charcoal could be made everywhere, it just has to be that expensive, that an import from (where ever the mine will be) still is an interessant option.

or give charcoalmaking as a "special" to a certain area. (perhaps the forested greenbriar)

*puts two cent on the counter*

[Mr. Cromwell]

But the problem is, that with such exclusive towns as Silverbrand (and to a degree, Nordmark) getting 'monopoly' on cheap, essential resources can seriously damage the economy. Especially if there is even no mean to 'sneak in' into the mine (as it might be in the case of silverbrand). There might not even be enough active dwarves to supply the demand of other places to begin with.

What this leads to, is that if the NPC-merchants sell for 9c, then most likely dwarves will sell for 7c or 8c while the fair price would be 3-4c. I think that real life has shown us that monopolies aren't generally good for the economy, but only for the monopoly-holders.

That's why all the options should be carefully weighted before implementation.

[Llama]

I'm not against 'luxuries' being only avalible in a town, for example a special kind of wood to make much stronger weapons...

But something as basic and needed as coal, ores and the like should not (gold would be allright though).

Now currently coal is a problem to get, and you need a whole lot of it. You can either journey north with a cow, and hope that you don't get mugged on the way, or you can beg for a dwarf to get you some from silverbrand...

In the massive amounts which are required, buying in bulk is very very wasteful.

Charcoal is an option, trees are everywhere. If you want to learn lumberjacking and a new skill for a while for it to make it more worth it then a long walk, that's fine...

I don't see why such a needed good should be monopolised, or made very hard to get... its a bias which allows dwarves (and only dwarves) to be the 'best' smiths...

[Lennier]

Erm, who says, that the dwarves have the only (good) coal mine?

We have 5 mining areas in total. In all you can find iron ore and copper ore in different rates. In 3 of these 5 areas you can find coal. Gold and gems have different areas and concentrations, also within these 5 general mining areas.

Go, search and test it. Silverbrands mines are not the only good ones.

Maybe you also know, that 1st. coal has nearly no wheight (compared with iron ore), so that your char can dig out and transport much more coal than iron ore and 2nd., that we have cows now, which can be used to transport huge amounts of wares.

If you still tell me, silverbrand mines are the only good ones for smiths, you do not know the map. You did not explored it since ~3 months.

[Korm Kormsen]

Mr. Cromwell,

you are right. unique resources should not bei in towns, but near towns.

[Mr. Cromwell]

I'm getting told that I'm right a lot recently, and I hope it's permanent.

[Korm Kormsen]

... or you are being mobbed in a very subtle way...