alright i have been inactive in the game and looking at the boards for a good month or two...seems MANY things changed and it being football season for me i wont have the time to enjoy all of these changes, BUT to my point.
I think this has become a boring game, plan and simple. my reasons for this is there have been so many changes to make it so hard for everyone to basically do anything. the only truly active char i ever had since the char wipe was Gabon Corad. Gabon used to be great, i loved playing him because he was strong and had a reputation, one that people knew. I loved being able to introduce myself to someone and them RP their char in awe because they had met him. Gabon was not one who was built over night, i played him since the char wipe, he was the very first active orc to the new system.
POINT #1
to tell you the truth i enjoyed playing when people could become good in only a few weeks if that even. when this new system after the char wipe started it was a race to become the best and it was a powergameing fiasco, but guess what, it made it fun. People were in the game to do what was a game is ment to do, have fun.
POINT#2
Being able to see your char have progress with out spending HOURS and HOURS literally of time working on a skill to only to yield a small amount of gain.
POINT#3
people will argue all of this new crap makes the game more real. sure it does, but guess what if we want real we will turn our computers off and go take a smithing class or learn how to be a carpender. I DONT WANT REAL i want fun.
POINT#4
way back before the char wipe, there were many many chars that were maxed out or close to it in their skills, but guess what they focused on RP because they no longer had to spend time training their char. They got in the game to PLAY AND HAVE FUN something that i really think has been lost. sure all these new graphics and larger maps and what ever the hell else there is is good, but why make it so damn hard?
when i sit down to play a game i play it for fun not to sit there for hours shift clicking on a rock and anvil or mummy. the game has truly lost the edge of fun. new rules and skill caps and everything like that just make this game very very unfun i really think everything has gone way overboard in attempts to make the game fair for the new players and such but in a way with the ability to become good over a shorter period of time it is much more fair to them because they do have to sit in the shadows for months while they attempt to train, they can be out and about in no time because they are able to gain a respectable amount of skill in a much shorter period of time.
NOW here are the problems i can think of please post any others you might think of that i fail to point out
1) the older chars such as myself have spent so much time trying to be the best that we are low balled. ( the answer to this i think is im sorry you spent so much wasted time but you will have an easier time getting your skills higher even that they are now)
2) a sudden burst of extreamly good fighters/ crafters/ anything else (answer: good then there might be some actual role playing, wars between two groups of powerful warriors leading to a pure player on player war instead of all the GM on TB war. with the excess crafters there will be a great need of good RP to have and keep close friends who will buy your goods. and you know what, if everyone wants to be their own crafter and have horrible RP i dont think that it should be the GM and programmers decisions to tell us we cant. all you can hope for is chars with good Rp to set examples for all others.)
Now the goods of if some things are changed or simply the hold on them loosened
1) chars might stop bitching about how hard everything is and actually take half the time they spend on worthless shift clicking and make some very fun RP happen.
2) more of the old players might come back because they see that they have a chance IG with out spending countless hours IG shift clicking
no one hold back what you want to say about any of this. If im way outa line say something BUT if you think im right PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE say something, maybe if enough show they are disappointed with how things are some things might change for the better
thanks
PO Gabon
Powergameing...is it really that bad?
Moderator: Gamemasters
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Gabon Corad
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Dantagon Marescot
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It isn't that it is us saying the same thing over and over again. It is that we keep telling them what we want to see changed and no one listens or says they are actually going to make an attempt to fix it. I love little changes and everything, they make it seem like progress is being made. But why not set some of these little changes aside for once and work on things that would make Illa so much better. This would most definately be one of them.
The answer to your question: No it isn't that bad
We've sacrificed so much under the fear of needing protection from "powergaming". First was harder skill gain, next was more complex crafting, then a skill cap, etc etc. Here we are years later after all of these methods, and still no one is happy. I'm not really sure why any of those measures were even put into place, complex crafting discourages crafters. Harder skill gain helps powergamers more than anyone, their goal is to put themselves above everyone else, as such:
-Easier skill gain, everyone can become decent relatively simply, but with some time of course
-People say it's too easy (after conveniently grandmastering everything
) and it needs to be harder for the sake of economy and stopping the evil powergaming leet speaking hordes
-So much talk and complaints, harder gains and other things are done
-New characters who focus more on roleplay do not spend the extra time added by skill caps and harder gains to be decent
-Powergamers ARE willing to spend that time, and do so being skill oriented
-By spending more time they gain more skill, while people who base their time on interaction and RP do not, and the skill difference between 'powergamers' and roleplayers grows further and further (rich get richer, poor get poorer type deal)
-Powergamers can gloat over the RPers because they have good battle skill, craft skill, whatever it may be, RPers get frustrated and complain about powergaming, and the cycle goes on
So as Gabon says, having char's become decent is not a bad thing. It would actually help in current times, when there is lack of action and RP during certain times, when the skill gain is longer, there is a longer lag for new char's to truly RP their chars with the skill ability to back it up. You don't necessarily have to turn back the clock and say the dev's should just scrap everything they've done. But there IS a better balance between having skill be too easy, and having it be too hard, and when in doubt I say lean toward the easy because of the reasons listed above.
I think the new crafting system is great. Interruptions were listed as a problem in the other topic, but thing about how much more user friendly the system is for allowing you to keep doing an action without clicking 2-3 times for every ore (or no ore if you miss) and for other items and resources. Interruptions is a very tiny price to pay. I think what is needed is moving in the direction of the new crafting system, and easier skill gain.
We've sacrificed so much under the fear of needing protection from "powergaming". First was harder skill gain, next was more complex crafting, then a skill cap, etc etc. Here we are years later after all of these methods, and still no one is happy. I'm not really sure why any of those measures were even put into place, complex crafting discourages crafters. Harder skill gain helps powergamers more than anyone, their goal is to put themselves above everyone else, as such:
-Easier skill gain, everyone can become decent relatively simply, but with some time of course
-People say it's too easy (after conveniently grandmastering everything
) and it needs to be harder for the sake of economy and stopping the evil powergaming leet speaking hordes-So much talk and complaints, harder gains and other things are done
-New characters who focus more on roleplay do not spend the extra time added by skill caps and harder gains to be decent
-Powergamers ARE willing to spend that time, and do so being skill oriented
-By spending more time they gain more skill, while people who base their time on interaction and RP do not, and the skill difference between 'powergamers' and roleplayers grows further and further (rich get richer, poor get poorer type deal)
-Powergamers can gloat over the RPers because they have good battle skill, craft skill, whatever it may be, RPers get frustrated and complain about powergaming, and the cycle goes on
So as Gabon says, having char's become decent is not a bad thing. It would actually help in current times, when there is lack of action and RP during certain times, when the skill gain is longer, there is a longer lag for new char's to truly RP their chars with the skill ability to back it up. You don't necessarily have to turn back the clock and say the dev's should just scrap everything they've done. But there IS a better balance between having skill be too easy, and having it be too hard, and when in doubt I say lean toward the easy because of the reasons listed above.
I think the new crafting system is great. Interruptions were listed as a problem in the other topic, but thing about how much more user friendly the system is for allowing you to keep doing an action without clicking 2-3 times for every ore (or no ore if you miss) and for other items and resources. Interruptions is a very tiny price to pay. I think what is needed is moving in the direction of the new crafting system, and easier skill gain.
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Gabon Corad
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Re: Powergameing...is it really that bad?
*Raises hand* Yeah, thats why I haven't played in so long, not because the game isn't fun, but its not as fun as doing what I was doing in the game in real life. Also you have to consider you get bored of things.Gabon Corad wrote: POINT#3
people will argue all of this new crap makes the game more real. sure it does, but guess what if we want real we will turn our computers off and go take a smithing class or learn how to be a carpender. I DONT WANT REAL i want fun.
The concept of the skill system is derived from reality, hence the realism. Powergamers have the advantage no matter what because they invest a larger amount of time. So if you can come up with a formula that doesn't factor in the time aspect of reality you might get what you want. Good luck on that bub.
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Estralis Seborian
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Once again, not representing the official opinion of the staff:
I agree with this point of view, in almost every detail and word. I fell in love with this game when there was still a good chance to accomplish something in reasonable time. An online session without a "swirlie" is a bad online session - to be honest, I would not fall in love with this game again just because of the skillgain speed.
The current skillsystem offers many ways for tweaking, it is close to perfect, much better than the old one. But it has to be tweaked in order to make it perfect. I mean, the first one who has a character in an advanced skill level and claims that the skillgain speed is just right at this point shall step forward...
Illarion once had the subtitle "A better world". Nobody plays this game for killing monsters, cool graphics or the magnificient sound, but for roleplay. The crafting system might be too complex for some players, yet it is a great achievement for the game and I say, let's take it given and consider it a feature that makes Illarion unique. But having to spend dozends of hours, crafting the very same handles or shields hundreds of times to learn something new motivates nobody.
I agree with this point of view, in almost every detail and word. I fell in love with this game when there was still a good chance to accomplish something in reasonable time. An online session without a "swirlie" is a bad online session - to be honest, I would not fall in love with this game again just because of the skillgain speed.
The current skillsystem offers many ways for tweaking, it is close to perfect, much better than the old one. But it has to be tweaked in order to make it perfect. I mean, the first one who has a character in an advanced skill level and claims that the skillgain speed is just right at this point shall step forward...
Illarion once had the subtitle "A better world". Nobody plays this game for killing monsters, cool graphics or the magnificient sound, but for roleplay. The crafting system might be too complex for some players, yet it is a great achievement for the game and I say, let's take it given and consider it a feature that makes Illarion unique. But having to spend dozends of hours, crafting the very same handles or shields hundreds of times to learn something new motivates nobody.
I can say nothing more but: /signedI love little changes and everything, they make it seem like progress is being made. But why not set some of these little changes aside for once and work on things that would make Illa so much better. This would most definately be one of them.
Its not the time in my opinion, its the pressure...
I'm not old enough to remember the OLD OLD illarion, but I can remember the old client ages. I used to have a crafter character, and I didn't used to log in so often (maximum average was 2 hours or so..?). He was quite a good crafter really, and I used to train him in my own time. I never used to create rubbish and dump it, but rather I used to create stuff which people ordered.
What was nyce about it was that I KNEW that he was one of the better crafters on the island, so I didn't have to protect him against powergaming, by powergaming it myself. We didn't have an influx of new players/powergamers every few days, and I can still remember the rest of the carpenters on the island (faladron, erart, thalados, alica) who were around as skilled as he was.
Powergaming isn't fun, but the people who suffer the anti-powergaming measures are the people who don't powergame. If everybody's powergaming, then a character who roleplays will be less skilled, and .: will gain less of a living then a player who powergames.
The solution is , in my opinion, for the devs to remove the hard anti-powergaming measures, and instead hand-pick out powergamers and punish them themselves. I'm sure if you look at the d(skill)/d(time) of certain people, you can 'notice' they are probably powergaming.
I'm not old enough to remember the OLD OLD illarion, but I can remember the old client ages. I used to have a crafter character, and I didn't used to log in so often (maximum average was 2 hours or so..?). He was quite a good crafter really, and I used to train him in my own time. I never used to create rubbish and dump it, but rather I used to create stuff which people ordered.
What was nyce about it was that I KNEW that he was one of the better crafters on the island, so I didn't have to protect him against powergaming, by powergaming it myself. We didn't have an influx of new players/powergamers every few days, and I can still remember the rest of the carpenters on the island (faladron, erart, thalados, alica) who were around as skilled as he was.
Powergaming isn't fun, but the people who suffer the anti-powergaming measures are the people who don't powergame. If everybody's powergaming, then a character who roleplays will be less skilled, and .: will gain less of a living then a player who powergames.
The solution is , in my opinion, for the devs to remove the hard anti-powergaming measures, and instead hand-pick out powergamers and punish them themselves. I'm sure if you look at the d(skill)/d(time) of certain people, you can 'notice' they are probably powergaming.
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Korm Kormsen
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just as an idea on the spur:
let every crafter be able, to make at least 80% of the items of his craft from the beginning.
just in a very shitty quality.
so nobody has to make a couple of hundreds of shoes, before he can make (shitty) leather armour.
shure, quality raises only with practice.
edit: and let him break a lot of raw materials, till he got more experience.
a new fighter can challenge a dragon too. (if he finds one)
let every crafter be able, to make at least 80% of the items of his craft from the beginning.
just in a very shitty quality.
so nobody has to make a couple of hundreds of shoes, before he can make (shitty) leather armour.
shure, quality raises only with practice.
edit: and let him break a lot of raw materials, till he got more experience.
a new fighter can challenge a dragon too. (if he finds one)
Don't like that idea much.
Today: "Excuse me, do you know how to make leather armour?"
As suggested: "Excuse me, do you know how to make leather armour which is of good quality or better?"
I don't like that idea much, I'm sorry. I wouldn't mind the frequency of the new items being increased, but I wouldn't want everyone and his dog to be able to do anythign (even at rubbish quality)
Today: "Excuse me, do you know how to make leather armour?"
As suggested: "Excuse me, do you know how to make leather armour which is of good quality or better?"
I don't like that idea much, I'm sorry. I wouldn't mind the frequency of the new items being increased, but I wouldn't want everyone and his dog to be able to do anythign (even at rubbish quality)
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Cliu Beothach
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I agree completely. A game is meant to be fun, and creating a system that is detrimental can only hurt this. I feel the current system is detrimental. I know this is a roleplaying game, but trying to force be to roleplay through the system is like creating a board game where every square is "You win". People know this is a roleplaying game, they will roleplay. Well, I hope, but the last time I logged in I hardly found anyone though there were a decent amount online.
The current skill balance is so bad, I've never felt achievement, and yes I spent the majority of the time leveling or lack their off. The system should compliment roleplaying, not lead one to it. Right now, skills are a hit or a miss. Either you do it and try to feel a sense of improvement (if any) or you just forget about it.
The current skill balance is so bad, I've never felt achievement, and yes I spent the majority of the time leveling or lack their off. The system should compliment roleplaying, not lead one to it. Right now, skills are a hit or a miss. Either you do it and try to feel a sense of improvement (if any) or you just forget about it.
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Drathe
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I don't really play the game much these days nor have I done for a good while. The time I do spent playing the game is short and so I have not I am sure experienced all of the new system nor learnt all the new crafting needs to comment fairly.
But I do very much agree with some of the sensible made points above. Having come back to the game and learning how to make everything again from scratch and the time it takes… well… frustration does not even come into it. I simply do not bother to try and craft or do anything other than role play.
Now that in its self is fun and I enjoy that greatly, that is after all WHY I play the game. But it certainly has lost that older game magic. I personally, simply have no want to go through the rigor and monotony of crafting. There is limited genuinely worth while things to spend the little earned money on and certainly not enough player demand. I find it to slow and boring and so I just role play. I don’t even use the fighting system as I have no money to by weapons or to repair them, same for the tools for crafting.
I do whole heartedly admit I am a lazy player wanting what my character was before the character wipe and I have given it a go trying to get that back but I dont want to. Mind you I wouldn't dream of starting a new character to go through it all again for a diffrent skill.
The crafting system structure from what I have experianced is good, the time and difficulty, breaking of tools and weapons so easily is not. Dare I say, make it easier?
But I do very much agree with some of the sensible made points above. Having come back to the game and learning how to make everything again from scratch and the time it takes… well… frustration does not even come into it. I simply do not bother to try and craft or do anything other than role play.
Now that in its self is fun and I enjoy that greatly, that is after all WHY I play the game. But it certainly has lost that older game magic. I personally, simply have no want to go through the rigor and monotony of crafting. There is limited genuinely worth while things to spend the little earned money on and certainly not enough player demand. I find it to slow and boring and so I just role play. I don’t even use the fighting system as I have no money to by weapons or to repair them, same for the tools for crafting.
I do whole heartedly admit I am a lazy player wanting what my character was before the character wipe and I have given it a go trying to get that back but I dont want to. Mind you I wouldn't dream of starting a new character to go through it all again for a diffrent skill.
The crafting system structure from what I have experianced is good, the time and difficulty, breaking of tools and weapons so easily is not. Dare I say, make it easier?
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Richard Cypher
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Juniper Onyx
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Well, I just want to get my 2 cents in.......
I admit, my enthusiasm for the game 'took a nosedive' after the new crafting system came out. The system was great........no more monotonous clicks.......more logical skill progression,.....and more realism. It looks great on the surface.
But look deeper and......
Crafters need to have a market. Even though NPC's had just increased all their prices, there weren't enough players who demanded goods at the new prices. They thought that it would be easier to 'do it themselves'. Suddenly it seemed 'Everyone' was a Smith.....'Everyone' was a Cook......'Everyone' was a carpenter. Rather discouraging for someone trying to sell wares. The old problems of Illarion suddenly 'handicapped' the game. (I mean....not being able to Transport Bulk, not being able to contact someone IG, An imbalanced economy, etc.)
I kind of lost 'direction'. Dusty had no 'purpose' anymore. no-one really needed him anymore. I played Dusty a few hours a day for a Year to get his skills 'decent' and still RP'ing with others. I can't imagine how long it would take (without Powergaming) to get a character to that level again!Ever since I killed off Dusty, I have just occasionally tried new characters and lingered in the forums now and then. I'm not sure if I can ever 'replace' the fun and joy I had playing that halfling.
Once everyone crafted for themselves, true 'RP'ing Crafters were no longer used. I think most of them also quit (Seen Merrilyn Ferly, Thomas Greenbottom or Annouka lately?) Soon I think everyone realized how hard it was to level in crafting and then they began playing 'crafting' less and less until now there are very few 'active' characters who players can go to and 'buy' what they need.
Now.....
Who's got the time to be a crafter? I agree that the Game has become too 'real', and is not really a 'Game' anymore, but rather a 'Simulation'. Simulations are fun too, but in a different kind of non-RP way.
To sum up.....
Bring Back the Game!!!!!!
I admit, my enthusiasm for the game 'took a nosedive' after the new crafting system came out. The system was great........no more monotonous clicks.......more logical skill progression,.....and more realism. It looks great on the surface.
But look deeper and......
Crafters need to have a market. Even though NPC's had just increased all their prices, there weren't enough players who demanded goods at the new prices. They thought that it would be easier to 'do it themselves'. Suddenly it seemed 'Everyone' was a Smith.....'Everyone' was a Cook......'Everyone' was a carpenter. Rather discouraging for someone trying to sell wares. The old problems of Illarion suddenly 'handicapped' the game. (I mean....not being able to Transport Bulk, not being able to contact someone IG, An imbalanced economy, etc.)
I kind of lost 'direction'. Dusty had no 'purpose' anymore. no-one really needed him anymore. I played Dusty a few hours a day for a Year to get his skills 'decent' and still RP'ing with others. I can't imagine how long it would take (without Powergaming) to get a character to that level again!Ever since I killed off Dusty, I have just occasionally tried new characters and lingered in the forums now and then. I'm not sure if I can ever 'replace' the fun and joy I had playing that halfling.
Once everyone crafted for themselves, true 'RP'ing Crafters were no longer used. I think most of them also quit (Seen Merrilyn Ferly, Thomas Greenbottom or Annouka lately?) Soon I think everyone realized how hard it was to level in crafting and then they began playing 'crafting' less and less until now there are very few 'active' characters who players can go to and 'buy' what they need.
Now.....
Who's got the time to be a crafter? I agree that the Game has become too 'real', and is not really a 'Game' anymore, but rather a 'Simulation'. Simulations are fun too, but in a different kind of non-RP way.
To sum up.....
Bring Back the Game!!!!!!
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Juniper Onyx
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I also like the idea of faster skill gain. Before the Java client it was to fast. Now it is to slow. We all know it. I have mined and smithed for around 100 hours and my smith can't make an armor anyone will buy. I would suggest increasing skill gain speed by 10-15%. I know that no one wants to spend an hour getting a swirlie. But I must say, what a high it is when you do 
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Estralis Seborian
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It is not that easy. The shape of the learning curve has changed totally. Also, the influence of the MC-system is drastic. The skill system we have now is very complex, there is no 10-15%-switch.Lrmy wrote:Before the Java client it was to fast. Now it is to slow.
Refer to this topic to find out what our devs have in mind: http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=24308