Campfires

Nonsense - Indicator · Tue Feb 04, 2003 3:05 am

"paul laffing" wrote:
Okay, i am leaving this post. I am getting too worked up. All questions shall be answered by my avatar. :D

*ping*

Indicator of Nonesense · Tue Feb 04, 2003 3:06 am

*Ding*

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 3:23 am

what skill can make tinderbox, will it be made from metal, wood? what will we use for tinder, accually raw flint and steel are quite hard to catch, remember, we didnt have heavy indrustry back then, and probobly most people dont even know how to make steel back then. two sticks with some practice can work quite nicely, if youre gonna make a fire lighting skill, dont make it very hard to level cause its not very hard to learn.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 3:23 am

Nonsense - Indicator wrote:"paul laffing" wrote:
Okay, i am leaving this post. I am getting too worked up. All questions shall be answered by my avatar.

*ping*

*ding*

I don't think fire starting should require a skill, if the person has the right materials. It's not difficult to start a fire with a good heat source (embers, something that has a flame, something that creates sparks, or just something hot). My oppinion is yet to tinderboxes, no fire starting skill, but I don't really think it's much of an issue at the moment.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 4:07 am

@Cain Exactly. Proposals are to be discussed in a positive manner, and are for the future.
@Crocket That is your opinion, which is all and well. As for me not reading all the posts...no. Actually, I do read the posts, but I also have an opinion which I support, and so far noone has posted anything against my opinion with a good reason to back it up to change my mind.
@Korwin It may not be much of an issue at the moment, but such small changes are the ones that may shape illarion.

Crocket · Post by **Crocket** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 4:13 am

Elaralith,

You say no one has posted anything to change your opinion.

Explain one thing to me. Starting fires was something people
had to do in medieval times several times a day.
cooking, heating a house, for light and so on.
So how could someone living at that time not know how to build a fire?

I'm not flaming, just trying to get my point accross.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 4:21 am

@Crocket I see that, and that is the kind of post that is welcome. Let me offer a counter post. The kind of fire you are talking about is a big fire in a fireplace. That is different. Lighting a fire in a fireplace is not hard because you have some good equipment there including a poker, woodrack, adequate oxygen flow etc. etc. You see what I mean? I am talking about lighting a campfire right now. Campfire, in the sense, that you take wood from the wild and light it outdoors with usually flint/steel/tinderbox. Campfires in illarion are in the same sense as mentioned above. That is why I believe items should be required to light a campfire and also skill!

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 4:45 am

As many people have said already (not trying consciously to be rude), it was second nature to them to light a fire because they had to do it so often anyway. Fire is how they survived. Do you know how to start up a computer? It is a rough anology, i know, but it gets the point across.

Cain Freemont · Post by **Cain Freemont** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 5:14 am

Paul... actually everyone:
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it isn't quite the same (turning on a computer...). You see, turning a computer on IS easy, yes. However, it is something that is made easy through technology... Can you imagine if you had to hook up every wire and every part each time you wanted to turn on your computer? That would be more of an analogy, I believe.

Hooking up a computer
To hook up a computer, you must have knowledge of which parts go where and how to place them properly, without such knowledge you will get a chunk of metal with wires coming out of it... not a working computer.

Firestarting
To start a campfire, you must have knowledge of how to set up the logs, light the fire with flint/steel/tinderbox, and tend to your flame so it doesn't extinguish.

As you can see, these two things require some sort of knowledge in the act itself. Of course now, in this day and age, we have things like easy-lite logs and things like that... the same day and age that we have computers that turn on with the push of a button. Back then, in the medieval era, they did not exactly have simple shortcuts like lighters or easy-lite logs. This is the main reason I support firestarting as a future skill.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 6:30 am

set them up?? how hard is that, umm, well we would have to use a peice of iron instead of steel, or else we would need a refinery, you dont dig steel out of the ground you know, as for lighting, if youve ever started a fire by using wood and a bow, it takes a bit of practice, and alot of energy

Cain Freemont · Post by **Cain Freemont** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 6:41 am

I was only giving examples of what must take place in making these things.. I didnt say that setting it up was the entirety(sp) of the campfire.

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 7:27 am

A tinderbox, from my understanding, was simply a small metal box that contained flint, steel and some "tinder", dry leaves, twigs, cloth, etc.. Everything needed to start a fire.

Why shouldn't starting fires become a skill? Because it's only purpose would be to annoy people. There is no useful outcome for making firestarting a skill other than to have yet anohter skill. And this skill is one that doesn't produce anything.

If you look at all the current skills, they all produce something. Blacksmithing produces armour, mining produces coal, ore and gems. Wood cutting produces wood. They are all *trade* skills. Fighting is also a trade skill, it produces the ability to kill monsters to take their items/drops, etc...

Firestarting is not a trade skill, and even though it does take some small knowledge, not enough to matter. All we would be doing by making firestarting a skill would be to irriate and tick peopel off who wanted to start a camp fire.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 10:18 pm

@Separdum

A tinderbox, from my understanding, was simply a small metal box that contained flint, steel and some "tinder", dry leaves, twigs, cloth, etc.. Everything needed to start a fire.

Your definition of a tinderbox is correct.

Because it's only purpose would be to annoy people.

You are wrong there. There would be many good RP purposes for a firestarting skill. As for "annoying" people, many of the new changes such as gemcutting also "annoyed" people a whole lot. And those people that get annoyed are usually people that do not see the true meaning of "good RP".

There is no useful outcome for making firestarting a skill other than to have yet anohter skill. And this skill is one that doesn't produce anything.

Many useful outcomes were proposed earlier for a firestarting skill. I will relate them to you here again. Firestarting would no longer take the appearance of "magic" that it does now with instant fire. Many RP purposes would be also fulfilled. As for producing something...firestarting would indirectly produce many things! As I suggested earlier a fire could in the future be necessary for blacksmithing, and any other crafts that require fire. Another thing I suggest now for a fire to produce in the future if firestarting is made a skill: In the future when there are wild animals a fire could act as a radius of safety. This would make sense as rangers in the wild light fires for this very use to ward of wild animals. As well a fire could produce heat and serve yet another use in the future for possibly letting a character regain stamina faster when near a fire. Yet another useful outcome for fire and something it would produce would be light. In the future when a day/night system is implemented a fire could allow for a wider range of vision. As you can see these are just some "useful outcomes" and things that a firestarting skill could produce.

All we would be doing by making firestarting a skill would be to irriate and tick peopel off who wanted to start a camp fire.

Again many of the new changes "irritaed and ticked" people off extremely. The new gemcutting skill was met with plenty of complaints that I witnessed myself. So it must be with all changes! One should not let such things keep one from making changes.
About firestarting taking only some "small knowledge" that has been addressed too many times already. Read the earlier posts, and if you are still not convinced then there is nothing further I can do.
-Elaralith

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Wed Feb 05, 2003 3:36 am

*sighs* i have officially left this topic, so i shall not comment, but you still ignore all the posts about how easy it is to make a fire

I'm not trying to flame or anything, but i just find that odd

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Wed Feb 05, 2003 3:47 am

I'm also leaving the topic. I've already stated my point of view, and nohting said has changed it.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Wed Feb 05, 2003 3:48 am

@Paul I already posted to you that I noticed and read all the posts that claimed how "easy it is to start a campfire", and I have replied to all those. I do not see how YOU fail to notice my replies which indicate that I have not ignored the posts that claim that starting campfires are "easy". Go through this thread again if you must.

Kringin · Post by **Kringin** » Fri Feb 07, 2003 1:57 am

Oh darn i missed out on all the fun you guys were having, wow this thread really grew.

@Paul and Kringin Do not post here just to flame and argue for the sake of arguing. Or you may soon see yourself banned from the forums. Just some advice. Your posts do not contain ANY good ideas at all, so please go away. If you disagree that is fine with me. In no way do I "always have to be right", if you disagree you should give reasons why and not just complain etc. etc.
-Elaralith

Are you threatening me/us elaralith?!?!

What is your problem? Making unneccary comments like this can quite simply get you banned, I am simply stating the truth if you dont like it well then too bad its the truth.

Well Elaralith I am not flaming anyone I am just plainly stating as always, unless I use exclamation marks (for example "!" ) got it? and for some reason I think you dont like my post because you know its the truth but you want what you want and you seem so unsatisfied with anything. Well thats my opinion and I still think that it is not necessary to have firestarting skill if you wish to read again then go to:

http://www.illarion.org/community/forum ... c&start=10

Oh and Caranthir I dont hate the old people I just hate some of them, well you know how they can be sometimes with other people, they treat them like beggers and are very cocky; I know and have seen it many times.

See ya

Bumbol Woodstock · Post by **Bumbol Woodstock** » Fri Feb 07, 2003 2:02 am

well, not all skills need to be used to make a profit off of... Back in the Medival ara (spelt wrong i think) this skill was very important but you didnt nessarily get money from it. other skills like this were riding horses (dont know actually name) and reading. These weren't the most important skills back then, but they were useful to know. Fire making shouldn't be a hard skill to learn though, since like sep. said it doesnt make any money.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Fri Feb 07, 2003 2:26 am

@Kringin Take it as a threat if that will stop you from flaming and posting stupid posts.
@Bumbol Actually, fire-starting as I mentioned earlier would indirectly make money. For example, a smith in the future could need a fire to smith and with good fire-starting skill he/she could make money through smithing which requires a fire...As well I also suggest earlier for fire-starting to allow a character to increase stamina faster when it is implemented, and also health as a fire gives off heat and warms a person up.

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Fri Feb 07, 2003 2:44 am

Kringin, just remember i support you...darn, forgot i left this post. Sorry

Mishrack · Post by **Mishrack** » Fri Feb 07, 2003 3:11 am

hmm... are you aware just how annoying you three are?

Kringin · Post by **Kringin** » Sat Feb 08, 2003 1:33 am

Yep Mishrack I am quite annoying at times but sometimes people just don't understand, they dont like opposition or the truth... o well.

See ya, i have left this thread also.

...chill

Draakon · Post by **Draakon** » Sat Feb 08, 2003 4:27 pm

Well I do not really see why there could not be a firemaking skill, it should however be really easy to learn because it is not hard to learn if you know what to do. If someone would give you a tinderbox send you out into the woods and tell you to make a fire I am sure you could if it was not pouring down rain. All you do is simply collect dry old twigs that have fallen from the trees, if you tried with fresh wood it would not go very well but I am sure you would figure that out pretty fast or even more likley someone would have already told you this. The hard part of making a fire would be to find the components of a tinderbox, and even if you couldnt rubbing 2 sticks together with alot of patience would work. Further I think it would be safe to assume everyone knows what a fire is from childhood and that they had parents who told them how it was made. Even more likley as a small child you would need to help gather wood and light a fire and keep it burning. I think here we also have an issue because how hard it may be to make a fire it is very very simple to keep it burning (if weather is good of course) So if you have a big amount of dry wood leaves and twigs you can keep a campfire burning a very very long time. Even if you are somewhat dumb chances are after you make a big enough fire simply dumping tons of twigs on it would keep it burning for days if you like. So while I can agree it may take some skill to light a fire (not that much if you have the knowlege though) it still takes no skill to keep it burning. This is what I belive was done often in the medevil ages, in a camp for example a big fire would be lit and then kept alive as long as it was needed. Only lonley travelers would make small fires to cook a fish or hold back wild animals over the night. So I hope you see where I am going, if we make firestarting into a skill simply being able to dump wood on it would keep it burning. Noone would spend an hour lighting a fire then watch it burn out and start over....unless you wanted ash of course

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Sun Feb 09, 2003 2:57 am

@drakantor Exactly. Hmmm..after some thought I agree that if a firestarting skill were implemented it should not be too hard to attain. But I still stick by my opinion that firestarting should be a skill.
@Mishrack Three? I see two people that are highly annoying with their unhelpful posts-Kringin and Paul Laffing.

Niniane · Post by **Niniane** » Sun Feb 09, 2003 3:48 am

Lighting a fire would be something learned in early childhood for this time period and therefore since most inhabitants of the town are older than 16 the majority should already have the knowledge of how to start a fire. Characters aren't born at the age of their creation but rather they have lived up to that date in some other land or in this one and have acquired basic knowledge in this time. I would think that if your character doesn't already know how to make a fire because they're either too young or they lived a life in which they had not learned to do so then you should roleplay this fact and abstain from creating fires yourself or roleplay the difficulty encountered in learning to do so.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Mon Feb 10, 2003 4:56 am

@Niniane Saying that children in the medieval era learned in early childhood the art of firestarting would be like saying children in our era the 21st century learn how to program software at an early age. By firestarting I speak of lighting wood gotten in the wild as a campfire using a tinderbox. Such a skill was usually exclusively known by such people as rangers, hunters, and generally people of the wild. Now fire starting in the meaning of lighting a fire in a town in a house in a fireplace with a grate, grill and all the other utensils is a whole other matter. In that relation I would agree that that is something that was learned by children in that era at an early age.

Mishrack · Post by **Mishrack** » Mon Feb 10, 2003 4:27 pm

@Elarith
There are indeed three of you, as much as you blame them for not reading what other state, you do the same yourself... blatantly ignoring other posts...ah! NO!
I will NOT join ye int his mad quest!

Niniane · Post by **Niniane** » Mon Feb 10, 2003 4:43 pm

Starting a fire in a fire place is the same as starting a fire in the woods if you're using the same materials. Which of course is dry wood and some smaller dry materials to catch fire quicker. People were forced to learn how to make a fire in this way as not everyone lived in a nice cozy home like today. The majority were living in hovels and small houses and these people all had to make fires to survive.

Draakon · Post by **Draakon** » Mon Feb 10, 2003 5:45 pm

This holds no real argument perhaps I still state it could be made a skill if an easy one (I mean if you camp alot you would get better and better at starting a fire quicker) but wouldnt this promote to alot of useless firemaking just for the sake of making fires? I have seen it already in the forrest atleast 30 fires lit on row by someone (to get ashes I would assume) it looked really wierd and I am just happy the whole forrest did not burn down. But you can see my point I think so I don't really think it should be made a skill unless you could keep the fire alive so you would not need to light fire upon fire over and over just so you could get good at it cause if realism is the case you would not need to light the fire over and over.

Tyrth Coshi · Post by **Tyrth Coshi** » Mon Feb 10, 2003 9:19 pm

I have nto read through all the posyts, there are too many and I dont have alot of time. So if this hasbeen mentioned, please ignore it.

I agree, there are already alot of skills to learn.

so Perhaps, instead of all of us bickering over wiether or not to make firestarting a skill, we could put our intellegences togeatehr and come up witha ebtter idea, such as a more general skill, liek survival or whatnot, that firestarting would be encompassed by(and perhaps several other skills which exist and several which dont). This would, IMO, be a better idea then just Firestarting, since this IS a game remember.. as much as we try to make it real, it is STILL a GAME and we STILL have REAL LIVES and we go here to ESCAPE from teh TEDIOUSNESS of REAL LIFE.. we want to preserve teh realism and FUN of real life, NOT the Tediousness.

One otehr thing: Starting a fire is NOT as easy as it owuld appear... We have a camp up north and often I start our bonfires. which is a simple and easy enough task when you ahve DRY wood and PAPER aswell as a good amount of small dry sticks and whatnot, even with flint it's still pretty easy.
However, difficulty increases many folds when I am forced to use green wood and no paper, I tried, not as quick and easy a thing, I wouldnt even attempt it with flint!
We chop our own wood but we cant just use it immedeately, we have many piles of stacked wood, drying, which takes time (a few seasons for teh real good stuff).
Remember, in the time of our game Paper is not nearly as abundant nor expendable and much of th wood you are using would be green wood, which is not nearly as easily flamable because of all teh water inside it.
Perhaps we can also add something for this: freashly choped wood would be "green wood" and have it's purposes.. then after some time it would become "dry wood" or something and make starting a fire much easier.