Dr. Strangelove, or: How I'd love to stop skilling and play!

[Mr. Cromwell]

Now what about this rewarding people who actually rp and not spend all their time powergaming their character? What do we do to develop the game? *Points to the Proposals board.* Sure not all the ideas on there are the best, nor are they all going to be implimented, but they are something that helps give staff a better idea of what we want or think would better the game. And we can use it to help staff if they are stuck on something and can't think of how to work something out.

What about ig? If the staff is so busy working on developing things, who are they developing them for if they can't role play as much as they would like? Well obiously the players are the ones who are rping and keeping the game live and giving the staff a reason to keep developing what they make. Not only that, but the characters who sit and rp make up the many guilds and towns which run the world. The deplomacy between these groups is done by rp and not by pging. We are trying to make sure that this game stays fun for others (even when the pged characters are almost always the bad guy who tends to make the game less fun).

So why not reward those who work hard to keep the game fun and do it through rp and not constant skill raising? It may also help to balance out the game so some people who don't have the time to spend pging and wish to spend what little time they have rping will have a chance against pged characters. That or we could just keep a closer eye on characters and do skill decreases for these pged characters instead.

Dingding! We have a winner here.

You know, this may sound like a whine or rant.. but I really detest skillgaining in Illarion. Why? Quite frankly, it's uninteresting, gets repetative quickly and is certainly not exciting to the slightest bit. Not only that, but unlike in many other games you have relatively little clue on what you should do and what you shouldn't do to gain skill for your character.

So why won't you play a character that doesn't need any skills, you whiny noob? Well, the kind of characters who by their concept require no skills whatsoever are quite limited in selection...But you bastard and lousy roleplayer, you can roleplay everything if you want to! Sure, while it is true that you can roleplay just about anything (player to player wise).. there is a catch, or two in fact. Firstly it makes you completely dependant on other players, and there are a few of them who can make it suck heavily from time to time. Secondly, no matter how convincing you are with Conan the skilless barbarian, he will have his arse handed to him as soon as the technical side is involved to any degree at all (NPC, whatever).

We have all these nifty technical gadgets and functions for which the code-monkeys use excessive amounts of their time to develop for us, and besides for some reason I would love to use them while playing. I've made a new character multiple times, but usually get bored with him really fast. The main thing is the fact that I simply loathe the boring and massively timeconsuming way of gaining skill if I intend to have any for my character.

I love to talk with people. I spam the screen with millions of emotes. I think of myself as an okay player and most of the time I have been left with the feeling that those who have played with me have liked it. Anyhow, I just don't have the time or interest to gain skill in Illarion. If I wanted to do boring stuff with the computer, I'd be working overtime at my job.. (At least it would give me some tangible benefit, ie. more money ). For time reasons alone, it seems that at the moment I would have to choose between roleplaying or the character skills.. which is sort of disappointing.

In my opinion:
The skillgaining in Illarion
1. Is not fun
2. Is even un-fun
3. Consumes huge amounts of the player's time
4. Fails to inform the player to a degree which makes the lack of information a nuisance and possibly makes the nr. 3 even more serious issue.
5. The powergamers are still there

Solution:
A system where "active online time = Character skill points". I think it's theoretically possible for a system like this to co-exist with the current "click and dick around"-system, as long as a character cannot swap arbitarily between the two or use the both systems at the same time.

The idea is so simple that it's almost beautiful. You play the game, and while doing so the character earns skill points ('swirlies' which can be freely assigned to an "open" skill). Even those who don't have the time to hang down in the crypts all day long can no hope to have a character with some skills in the future. The exact rate of swirlie-gain in comparison to the CaDA-system should be decided by the code monkeys of course, but I think they are more than able to decide for that as well as for the safeguards against idle-skillgaining.

The roleplayers are now getting "rewarded" for their playing, the powergamers can still occupy the dungeons if they wish so and even the devs don't have to worry about pushing their characters anymore (:mrgreen:), as they can simply enjoy some damned fine roleplaying ingame and just watch their character skills grow. It's like putting money into the bank. Everyone is happy.

What do you think?

[Edited the text a bit]

[Lance Thunnigan]

I think I agree.
I think a system like that should've been implemented anyhow.

(Or changing the old level up system never happened.)

[Fooser]

In my opinion:
The skillgaining in Illarion
1. Is not fun
2. Is even un-fun
3. Consumes huge amounts of the player's time
4. Fails to inform the player to a degree which makes the lack of information a nuisance and possibly makes the nr. 3 even more serious issue.
5. The powergamers are still there

For the longest time, there seems to have been a policy of restriction, to protect the players from powergamers. First there was the 10x harder skillgain, then the skill cap, and other systems. But if you think about it, making skills harder to obtain is actually hurting the roleplayers, because those who obsess about skills are willing to sacrifice that extra time to skill gain while roleplayers are not, so it is really polarizing skill gainers and roleplayers even worse. And as you note with #5, all of these things implemented to help stop powergaming, and people are still complaining about powergamers years later. So this approach apparently isnt working, where a time based system could level it out much better. You also point out the making of new chars, and how it gets boring due to the skillgain, which is another good point and is something I think most people have experienced, they have a char with skills, they make a new one, and just done have the ambition to get them higher.

So yes, the system you describe probably would fix every single problem 1-5 you list.

[Karl]

In the old times, didn't it ask you to type what kind of character you'll be as you created your character? Warrior, etc..?
How about:
Each hour IG, = 40 skill points (I'm just giving an example)
You can: !set slashing, parry, concussion
Then every hour, 40 skills points will be divided by 3 into those three selected choices.
13,33333333333 for slashing,
same for parry,
same for concussion.

Get it?
I like it.

[Mr. Cromwell]

Actually, I would prefer the skill-list with buttons. I'm already getting freaked out by the amount of ! commands and such we have. Clickable buttons, man!

A counter in the lower part of the skill list telling you the amount of skill-points.. and such.

@Fooster
I actually supported the 10x skillgain back in the old days, simply because it was possible to become master of everything during 24h if you had a little help. Without any kind of quality-system like today, it didn't mean a thing if a character was 10 days or 10 months old. It was the same stuff, meaning that items had practically no value (exept for the three goldpieces Eliza would pay for them). That was a good call, I think.. At least from a healthy game economy PoV.

Rest.. *shrugs*

[Nitram]

As system based plain on the online time... dunno. Don't like it somehow.

I think it would be better to count the emotes and texts in general spoken by the character. And give the bonis this way.

Nitram

[Lance Thunnigan]

As system based plain on the online time... dunno. Don't like it somehow.

I think it would be better to count the emotes and texts in general spoken by the character. And give the bonis this way.

Nitram

And if you play a shy, or perhaps mute character?

[Mr. Cromwell]

Actually, I'm afraid that it could lead into spamming..
Which would totally suck and undo the roleplaying point. It wouldn't be just online time, but online time which is active (action/talking/whatever every X time-unit, or the counter for new skillpoints would be reset). Unless you can of course detect spamming with some easy way..

But you like the basic idea?

[Fooser]

I actually supported the 10x skillgain back in the old days, simply because it was possible to become master of everything during 24h if you had a little help. Without any kind of quality-system like today, it didn't mean a thing if a character was 10 days or 10 months old. It was the same stuff, meaning that items had practically no value (exept for the three goldpieces Eliza would pay for them). That was a good call, I think.. At least from a healthy game economy PoV.

Well in some cases it didnt matter, like for smithing. I remember people would hand out a plate armor and firesword to every newbie pretty much, and with no breakage system...all the good items were already out there cheap.


Nitram -- A time system would be less open to abuse, people could spam emotes and such, so some type of restriction would be needed for that

[Karl]

If you can actually do a script to count how many words per emote you do, then that'd be great.
That'd be the best way to do it, I think.
Though if the emotes are not at least x minutes apart, the boni points only count for the first emote.

[Lance Thunnigan]

Emote based skillgain would suck ass.
Timed skillgaining would be the best route IMO.

[abcfantasy]

Timed skillgaining would be the best route IMO.

What if you simply log in somewhere isolated and leave for a snack or something? I think that can be pretty much abused.

[Mr. Cromwell]

If you can actually do a script to count how many words per emote you do, then that'd be great.
That'd be the best way to do it, I think.
Though if the emotes are not at least x minutes apart, the boni points only count for the first emote.

Sadly, I don't think there is an easy way to determine the value of the written words. Big Hat or igb aht ? I doubt it's going to work like intended.

[Nitram]

If there is a time based system, there has to be logged in some way, the time since the last action.
If your character stands around 10min without doing anything --> no bonus.

[Mr. Cromwell]

(action/talking/whatever every X time-unit, or the (time**) counter for new skillpoints would be reset)

Already suggested.

[Achae Eanstray]

I would not like to count actual words either, some people can convey the same information in a very nice way with less "wordiness" and I think this would degrade the RPing atmosphere. However, I also hate to see a char getting something like a Smithing skill from "talking" or RP.

What about a new skill altogether? There has been suggested before a language skill, a char being able to learn another race's language. This would reward the RP'ers with a skill unlike others who choose to learn a different one. Paramaters to be set by dev's?

As far as new chars, I have made a few and except for rare times have managed to RP and skill gain at the same time. It has been fun working toward both (improving RP and skill gaining also). The only problem with this is if your background would be, say a very strong char and before playing this char, you need the skill. Is it also possible to have a few skills, maybe one selected with your new char. For instance a Knight could select to start out with (random number imposed) slashing skill, or parry skill?

[Wyrda]

okay... so the old chars are uber and the new chars will never ever catch the old ones?

[Lance Thunnigan]

okay... so the old chars are uber and the new chars will never ever catch the old ones?

Unless they skillgain, Duh.

[Pellandria]

guess you need to make the skill points and the actually working thing together, sure its boring to powergame, but I would say you gain a certaint skill(like 10%), then you must work/fight/speak (up to 15-20%) and the skill will can be raised for a few points/swirlies again and then you need to work again.

[Lance Thunnigan]

guess you need to make the skill points and the actually working thing together, sure its boring to powergame, but I would say you gain a certaint skill(like 10%), then you must work/fight/speak (up to 15-20%) and the skill will can be raised for a few points/swirlies again and then you need to work again.

I like that idea too.

[Dash]

I would like that... if it would tell you when you need to switch and not leave it up to you to guess.

[Korm Kormsen]

i want to repeat, what has been mentioned often allready.
leave everything, as it is, just add a skillcap (for all skills together). if one has skilled all possible points, and goes on powergaming, some less used skills go down.

the result:
no uberchars, that know it all.
new chars can "catch up".
even the worst powergamer will reach the point, where he understands, that he can't reach more. - an will start to communicate...

[Taeryon Silverlight]

i want to repeat, what has been mentioned often allready.
leave everything, as it is, just add a skillcap (for all skills together). if one has skilled all possible points, and goes on powergaming, some less used skills go down.

the result:
no uberchars, that know it all.
new chars can "catch up".
even the worst powergamer will reach the point, where he understands, that he can't reach more. - an will start to communicate...

The point of this topic is the way how you get skills. Not how much.

[Theon]

What about the players that go AFK for hours and hours on end?

EDIT: Nevermind, got it. Instant perma game and forum ban.

[falco1029]

A good way to go about it is to basically creat a pathwork ofa ll these ideas.

Basically, if you are active a certain amount within a given amount of time, you are given x skillpoints to spend. What active means is key input, and typing 50 times per second wouldnt increase it anymore once you get to the point needed for the skillpoints.

Also, it'd need to be spread throughout the time somewhat, so you cant just say 50 things every 20 minutes, and be inqactive the other 19.

Perhaps, even doing those gets you very little skill, but if you are using emotes while clicking to gain skill ("#me sews the leather pieces together, finishing his armor", for instance), you gain skill about 10 times as quickly. Reward the rpers but make clicking possible.

then there's how to stop abuse. It'd take a while to code, but perhaps have an automatic log checker that looks for 'nonsense' in the speech of somebody. It wont report it for one or two mispellings, but if you have something like

Bob:kajfdla
Bob:ljgakhakj

etc etc, it'd report to a gm for checking, and that person could then be docked skill.

That way you have two ways to gain skil lthrough rping, plus the traditional method. Sure, there's always a way to abuse it, but this would make things a lot more fun for people, I'm sure.


That's my 2 cents (maybe even 3)

[Korm Kormsen]

Taeryon,

maybe, you should think less superficial.
the underlying question of all the umpteen threads is, how to lessen the disadvantages roleplayers have against powergamers.

[Salhari]

From what i have read one the posts here, it seems most characters like these ideas, which i have changed a little to add in my own personal opinion.

1)time based skill gain, where if you go 'idle' after like, since it is dealing with skillgain, 5 minutes, you get no more 'time' added to your skill counter.
2)caps to where you can learn x% through time-skill, and then must earn x% from working with that skill. This would enable a more realistic feel for the crafting system still, since you still have to work with the items.

and now for my own,
3)x amount of skill per time spent in game should either be reduced as more is gained, or either the skills you spend them on should start costing more saved up 'skillpoints' to be able to spend on them. This would stop people from being able to just spend a steady amount of points, get it down to a science, and powergame.

If i missed anything, just add it in below, i am sure someone will.

[Avalyon el'Hattarr]

I hate games where you learn skills diablo style.

[Dantagon Marescot]

Someone actually listened to my suggestion... *huggles Cromwell*

@Ava:
Do you mean where you can asign skills to what ever category you want? If this gets intigrated into the game, it doesn't mean you have to use it, you can still train your character how you have been training them. It just gives people who want to rp when they are actually on a chance to still earn skills for actually partisipating in role play. After all, if you really think about it, what does your character do when you are off line? Maybe they are training, studying, or working hard on what they are a professional at. So shouldn't they technically be gaining skills instead of losing it and theroetically punishing the player for not having the time, patietnce, or will to train their character?

@Korm:
A skill cap with a decrease ability for unused skills is a great idea. The only problem is, it won't stop people who make fighting only characters from pging and surpassing older characters with players who don't spend time doing this. Theroetically the idea in your mind should work. But then again, it is like communism. It looks good on paper, but it isn't possible.

@Everyone else:
I wish I could think of a good idea for this to work, but I really can't. And even if I could think of a good idea it doesn't mean the staff will know how to implement it or even if they do, if it will be implemented at all. I think first we need the support of the staff inorder to figure out what to do. Do they want to code it, do they want to put it in, or do they not even care? Just because the players want something and all come to an agreeance on how something should be done, doesn't mean it will be done. So... next group...

@ Staff:
Does this matter enough to you for you to listen to our suggestions and try to implement something like this? If all of us, including you can come up with a good way of going about this, will you do it? Tell us now before all of us waste our time and brain power thinking up something to help Illa and find out you really don't want to do anything about it.

[AlexRose]

In the old times, didn't it ask you to type what kind of character you'll be as you created your character? Warrior, etc..?
How about:
Each hour IG, = 40 skill points (I'm just giving an example)
You can: !set slashing, parry, concussion
Then every hour, 40 skills points will be divided by 3 into those three selected choices.
13,33333333333 for slashing,
same for parry,
same for concussion.

Get it?
I like it.

Hardly old times but it said:

William Elderberry: Welcome to Illarion. There are 7 other players online.
William Elderberry: Welcome to Illarion.
William Elderberry: Go to the human standing close to you and talk to him.
William Elderberry: If you want to become a craftsman, say "I want to become a craftsman."
William Elderberry: If you want to become a fighter, say "I want to become a fighter."
William Elderberry: If you want to become a magician, say "I want to become a magician."
William Elderberry: You can, however, afterwards specialize in anything you want (druidism, archery, smithing, ...).
William Elderberry: I want to become a magician.

I agree with the points, but powergamers could then just sit in the room logged in all day watching tv, putting points into skills every time they get it.


@Nitram: I was thinking exactly the same thing about getting skill from talks and #me's.
@Eric: I imagine a mute character would have lots of #me's.
@Avalyon: That's because you're a powergamer.