[RECONSIDER]Fires!!

[Lrmy]

Ehh, alright we are at dispute about fires or something and I got some idea or something....erm Nitram told me to move this kinda.. What do you guys(and gals ) think?

I think a tool is a great idea.. Maybe the tool allows you to keep the fire going and contain it at the same time, maybe it would need to be used on the fire every minute. This would keep fires going(easier for those campfire side rping adventures) as well as containing.

Heh, also...grass had better not be flamable in the winter(with the snow i mean).

[Aegohl]

I have a related proposal. You should be able to pull a torch from a campfire or at least have a chance of pulling out a torch from a campfire if you were to try. By using the torch with a nearby tile, you should be able to start a new campfire, or have a chance at starting that fire. Once you've taken, say, three torches out of a fire the fire will go out.

This would be helpful to glassblowers who need to start big fires for lots of ashes. It also might be neat in siege situations where attackers can use torches to help them light fires near walls and start fires as traps.

It would also be neat if eventually a torch-wielder would create a small light in a radius around him when it's dark, making the torch even more functional.

[Achae Eanstray]

I like the idea in a way...a lot of the campfires were started in order to cook and RP at the same time, I miss being able to have the campfire, but am not sure I would like to click it every minute.... how about building a "safe" campfire...say surrounded by something non-flammable to keep it from spreading? The towns could adopt that law that only fires built this way would be allowed? ((saw your other note and I agree with you also about the grass))

[Cassandra Fjurin]

the problem is that the current system can't handle that. The current spreading fire is a great workaround around some basic system weaknesses. Currently a fire is an item which rots to ashe. No chance for scriptcalling. After the fire is created we can't hinder the fire to rot (maybe we can delete the fire and create a new one with the rot cycle again maybe this is a solution) a better way would be to call a script if the item should rot, which takes an action. Maybe it makes the fire smaller.... or hinder it from rotting or spreading it etc. Currently the rot system is one weak part of the current scripting language.

[Vilarion]

actually I see no problem to integrate this into the script I wrote...not now at least

[Aegohl]

Which parts? I mean, his proposal or my add on or both?

[AlexRose]

Which parts? I mean, his proposal or my add on or both?

The thing about yours is: if you pull out a torch and put it on the ground to start a new fire; what is the fire made of? How long do you think grass would burn?

Flaming torches sound like a good idea though; say if you were trying to invade somewhere and you could burn down the gates etc.

[Damien]

Burning down player property on purpose isn't a good idea, even if it's doors. Would be a free way into places like silverbrand for everyone when there is no dwarf around, and constantly cause the owners f doors money for repairing those (without a sense if everybody can remove / burn them).
Anyhow, ever tried to burn down a solid door with a burning stick ? HAHA... see

Pulling a stick from a fire doesn't make it a torch anyhow. It is a burning stick. Those tend to go out with a small gust of wind (just when you move it around a bit) and then just glow and smoke. No torch at all.
A useable torch usually consists of fabric drenched in wax (short living, dripping "noob" torches) or better tar (longer lasting, better ones) wrapped around the top of the stick tight and in multiple layers. In some cases there is other stuff put between the cloth layers to make it burn slower and with a steadier flame.
And even trying to burn down a simple door with a torch does only leave a black spot on its surface, nothing more.

[Lrmy]

Sounds like a fire system could be made(Not now of course, I know you are far to busy at the moment).

Damien, being the background expert, you must have a good amount of knowledge on the time period the game is based on. Do you think they treated their wooden doors, and used special paints on them? No, they most likely had crappy wooden doors that would burn nicely if you started a little fire at the bottom and let it sit for a minute. I also suggest you start a fire and put a large stick in that fire, pick up that large stick by the side you would leave out of the fire after about two minutes and wave it through the air a few times with a decent speed, did it go out?

[Hermie]

Maybe torches could be a seperate thing, to make one you'd need wood, cloth, and oil. Then to light it you'd use it with a campfire, thus the campfire stays where it is and you all get torches. Then torches could be used to start other campfires or as lights at night.

[Damien]

Have you EVER tried to start a fire on a medieval-ish styled wooden door ?
They didn't use thin crappy light-weight and very dry wood like wooden doors are nowadays. Medieval doors are - especially if it's the "cheap" ones - thick and rough. The "expensive" ones were even thicker and had iron stuff on them, or carvings.
They didn't even have waterproof paint that kept the wood dry on outside doors, so they had to use wood which doesnt rot easily when it's exposed to weather (and such wood is usually not as easy to ignite as balsa wood...).

Did you EVER try to light a thick, heavy oak log which has been exposed to sun and rain for a while ? Even if it's a really old log ?

...see. You'd need a fire burning for a few hours and very hot. Like what you get when you pile up a nice large stake and let it burn for quite a while.

And yes. I did the stick stuff often enough when playing with campfires, and you will have a glowing stick which is smoking, but it won't burn long when you hold it up.
You should really not try to argue about things you have no clue of, i mean it should be absolutely clear to everyone who ever started a wooden fire. Ever. And i can't imagine that there are so many people around who never started a wooden fire.

[Lrmy]

Have you EVER tried to start a fire on a medieval-ish styled wooden door ?

Yes, three times.

They didn't use thin crappy light-weight and very dry wood like wooden doors are nowadays. Medieval doors are - especially if it's the "cheap" ones - thick and rough.

My oak treated doors in my 7 story mansion are very nice, they don't burn that easily, trust me.

The "expensive" ones were even thicker and had iron stuff on them, or carvings.
They didn't even have waterproof paint that kept the wood dry on outside doors, so they had to use wood which does nit rot easily when it's exposed to weather (and such wood is usually not as easy to ignite as balsa wood...).

How many medieval doors did have you ever seen that weren't in a castle? I collect them, you have no idea what you are talking about...sorry

Did you EVER try to light a thick, heavy oak log which has been exposed to sun and rain for a while ? Even if it's a really old log ?

Yeah, read above. But, medieval doors weren't like this.

And yes. I did the stick stuff often enough when playing with campfires, and you will have a glowing stick which is smoking, but it won't burn long when you hold it up.

More proof you are a lier.

You should really not try to argue about things you have no clue of, i mean it should be absolutely clear to everyone who ever started a wooden fire. Ever. And i can't imagine that there are so many people around who never started a wooden fire.

Now you are making fun of the blind? Not cool, maybe you should just be quite and take a break Damien. A vacation would do you good. A therapist maybe? No offense, but come one....

[Retlak]

Owned.

[Avalyon el'Hattarr]

Pwnt.

[Damien]

1. There's no need for me to lie.
2. No insults or personal attacks on the boards please (calling someone a liar IS both).

3. If you have doors that are centuries old and been stored dry (and perhaps eaten by worms too), they may catch fire quite quickly, sure. But try that to a wooden door when it's still kinda new, or even when it's an outside door. And yes, if you have to do with some people who do not much more than medieval handcraft and market folk or LARP in their free time, you get to play with campfires alot, stick axes into things, as well as see some load of partially old still-in-shape castle doors.

You cannot light a massive wooden door with a stick you pick from a campfire within a minute. PERIOD.

[Kevin Lightdot]

*random other suggestion*

How about, when torches are made, you can just, once lighted carry them around in your hand, just for light? I mean... well, in the dark you can really still see, but yeah... so what? I wanna walk around waving a torch!

And personally... this torch thing even makes no real sense... unless fire actually being created is gonna take time, not just shift-click insta-fire. A torch maybe could be used to light already prepared fires faster.

I dunno about the script, but this seems just like using a tool for crafting to me, and with no use of the tool, the time to make the fire is made longer.
Like If Torch is used with Unlit Campfire Then decrease crafting time of campfire by 75%(Or whatever) Buuut... I'll leave that part to the scripters who actually know Lua.

Just a suggestion.

[Lrmy]

Damien, I was jokin' ya lien' muffin. I do not doubt you have stuck many things in fires.

Kevin, you sort of contradicted yourself in the first two sentence/paragraphs there. Unless I misunderstood. Your idea of a tool is sort of what I had in mind. I did see three campfires lined up outside of the Grey Rose all with a little 3 next to them, some one looked to be working on something.

[Kevin Lightdot]

I meant, with my first two, torches for lighting fires are not needed, as fires curently are made instantly, and unless they're going to take time like crafting something, there's no need for a torch. That was what I meant with 'this torch thing makes no sense.'

And the first part was for using a torch, holding it, just to create light around you.

[Damien]

@Lrmy :
1. Irony may sometimes not get carried through by the written word if some readers are no native speakers.
2. On a kinda public forum like this here, some people do make weird suggestions while being totally serious. Remember, some people took a horde of invading bunnies on april fool's day serious enough to complain about "the quest"

[Aegohl]

I was imagining it more like you were taking some of the sticks from one fire and then using the firey sticks to start up some twigs elsewhere, thereby spreading the fire, which would make things a lot easier for glassblowers.

I never said anything about lighting houses ablaze with torches. (I mentioned starting fires near walls and using this method to spread them to other adjacent tiles, but not walls!)

I didn't ask for semantics. I asked one of the devs a question responding to his statement.

If Lrmy calling you an idiot is flaming, Damien, you saying that he doesn't know what he's talking about is, to me, about the same... especially because it's way out of leftfield in a proposal topic that's already been answered...

This is how flamewars start. Please, everyone, watch your behavior. You might not even know what you're saying sometimes.

Now, let's rewind back a bit:

Could you clarify, Vilarion?

[Gro'bul]

Getting ash for glassblowing is easier than ever. A good lumberjack can get around 10 logs per tree, each log gives 3 ashes, 30 ashes per tree. You only need 1 ash and 1 fine sand per glass ingot. And all of it is automated except lighting the fires, which is not difficult.

[Lrmy]

Just to make things clear, I never called any one an idiot. And Grobs? Do you mean that is a good or a bad thing? I like it because it took way to long to get ash before.

[martin]

My suggestion for ash is a little different:

I noticed that several ash-producers create a lot of campfires at a place, which is, to be honest, REALLY dangerous (someone even burned down Greenbriar, or parts of it, because I stopped the wildfire in time...). So how about this:
If you started one campfire, you can throw logs onto it which raise the number of ashes you get from that single fire. Say you create a usual fire, throw 3 additional logs onto that fire and end up gaining 3+3*3=12 ashes.

That doesn't help in siege situations, however I believe they don't happen that often anyway and I find "my" solution a little more logic than putting pure tiles on fire with a burning stick.

Martin

[Aegohl]

I like that proposal as well.

[ogerawa]

Say you create a usual fire, throw 3 additional logs onto that fire and end up gaining 3+3*3=12 ashes.

mm.. what about the time it takes to turn them into ashes? will it like reset the timer for the fire to turn into ash? or additional time according to the logs we dropped? or... it the timer stays according the the first fire burned?

[martin]

The timer would be the one of the first fire.

Martin

[Damien]

That's a very good solution.
Anyhow this method could be used for making "normal" campfires burn longer, if you use a second timer(or set the actual timer anew) from the point of "feeding" the fire latest. Would be a bit more logical.